PLD Vs NIN...Who Is The Best Tank?

Phalanx 2 makes me happy mnk in salv.

Wrong
there is no "best" and thats with me being a 75 PLD....PLD/NIN can tank most situations with goos Sa and Ta from THF and /THF dd, also back up tanks to occasionally hold hate long enough for the main to get a full recover of ability and shadow timers....but as i said that is pld/nin is preferred for most because of versatility. But what if you dont have the numbers for that, 2 NIN/DRK with a thf can hold some major hate as well as survive for a long time i geared properly. Also certain mobs wdeal damage so fast neither a nin or pld can keep shadows up requires a RDM. So as its been stated above there is no "best tank" But IMO PLD/NIN as a main tank with another PLD/NIN or NIN/War or DRK off tank is the preffered set up by most LS's.

Speaking of blu as tank, I tank a hell of a lot of ***on blu/nin, but I think the only real reason I can do that better than most other ???/nin jobs is head butt and actinic burst. Head Butt slows down the rate you burn through shadows, can but often won't help you get them back up (head butt > ni is the lazy way of getting ni up instead of just timing it right, but generally won't work for ichi unless it's a seriously slowed mob). Actinic Burst is great in a lot of situations for getting ichi up if your timers run out. But with shitty evasion and no shield skill even cocoon isn't that big a life-saver most of the time.

Having said that, I have no tanking build at all and have only experimented with /pld long enough to think it's highly overrated. The addition of sentinel is about all you gain, so with a 5 minute recast it's a worthless pile of ***compared to utsusemi. All in all though, if a mob is susceptible to head butt, blu can probably tank it.

Anyway, back to the actual topic. I think the only way to resolve this is to list every mob in the game over level 85 and count how many can't be tanked by nin or pld. Whoever gets the highest score loses.

Kanican uses nin/drks for almost everything and thats good enough for me...

WTF kind of suck *** Nin/Drk's have you played with that need an LOLthf to get/keep hate?

and, No

I have my Phalanx II lvl 5 on my Rdm alt. Phalanx II and Slow II ftw!

Nin/Drk is terrible for things that build resistance to stun, and have a move that needs to be stunned at some point.

Well 300+ enhancing magic litterally takes all the enhancing gear you can find minus maybe glamor jupon if you don't have merits. Para2 just rocks with decent mnd setup even at lvl1. And bio3 makes me happy in my pants.

Even without using stun nin/drks build hate pretty damn good.

Pretty good I'll admit with the JA and other spells, but in situations like this, Nin/Rdm works wonders.

Actually ive always seen that done so the mob never focuses in one place for to long, but then again if your gonna have a thf4 on the mob for the drop, why not put him to some use right?

The ONLY issue with phalanx 2 is that slow 2 and para 2 are both so *** sexy. Ideally you want at least 2 good rdm's in your LS that attend most things, that way they can be good little rdm's and merit phalanx II, slow II, para II and dia III (or maybe blind II?).

Also, nin/drk is great for hate. Pld/rdm is great for hate. What's wrong with nin/rdm? Needs too much refresh? (serious question, I've never heard of anyone trying it)

Edit: Froebus beat me to it, so in answer to my own question, apparently nothing at all :o

Nin/Rdm is freaking sweet. I've used it lots of times when low manning jailers.

nin/rdms moves dont have nearly as much decaying hate so it takes longer too build. Also stun helps keep shadows up and is very fast. Instant jas... but can a nin/rdm do this!?!

PLD is what I prefer, but I think that's just because I leveled it. I just have to say that PLD/RDM is probably the most fun job to go as to a ballista match. As a tarutaru people "gang-bang" me because they expect low def and HP. So I just go PLD/RDM and it takes about 5 people to take me down xD. It's great fun.

There was a comment a while back, I don't know who said it, but they mentioned if they can't find a PLD for exp THEN they get a NIN. Totally agree. I hate Ninja tanks. There are a few really good ones out there, but honestly the majority of them aren't too good.

EXP party under lvl 60: PLD
EXP party over lvl 60: NIN
EXP party over lvl 70: N/A

Blood tanking doesn't really exist in end game, every tank has shadows or third eye or something. HNM have too much attack for DEF or VIT to have any meaningful effect on the damage taken, PDT, MDT (some time resist e.g. fire) builds and shadows are what you need to mitigate damage.

End Game (single target, not dynamis, lower level limbus etc):
Standard HNM: PLD/NIN (with sword AND shield)
Heavy magic Casters or 'ignores shadows' moves: PLD/RDM
Ultmia, JoL etc: RDM/NIN (not widely used, but very powerful)
Kting: NIN/DRK

(some big generalizations in there, but ***is most defiantly situational)

But they need support, at least 1 BRD and RDM in the tank party.
PLD needs Haste spell and 1 march to reach the recast cap (assuming he is well geared)
NIN needs Haste spell and 1 march to reach the recast cap (assuming he is well geared)
RDM needs just Haste spell to reach the recast cap (assuming he is well geared)
PLD/RDM needs just Haste spell to reach the recast cap (assuming he is well geared)

By well geared I mean: dusk +1 (or homam for PLD), speed belt, Loq earring, fast cast aug etc.

Each job has it's limitations:
PLD: Struggles to build CE, as all their JAs are VE. Cure tricks, meleeing and sentinel spam combined with curing and meleeing is the only way to build CE.
NIN: Lacks the ability to survive without shadows, if the shadows are down before the timer the NIN is dead.
RDM: Lacks methods to make 'quick' hate, they need a head start to build hate before the rest of the group starts.

Personally I would take a PLD for most fights, as everyone knows what to expect from a PLD. I am interested in trying RDM tanking when I get some time.

Paladin IMO is "best tank"

However.... being a lvl 75 paladin...
NINJA has its places.

Tanking something that likes to hit for constant 500+... yeah, *** that, where is the damn ninja?!

talking something hitting for 100-200? or less?!

yeah.. im here to take the hits.

something hitting fast (with the exception of charylbdis) get a pally..

it all depends on the situation on who is the best tank, being PLD, or NIN.

so even though im a 75 PLD and 37 nin...

i will never be THE BEST, nor will a NIN be... THE BEST... it all depends on the mob being tanked.

Anything that can be stunned and doesn't build resist to it, Nin/Drk is a much better choice than Nin/Rdm, but not everything falls into that category.

If I were doing jailers in a large group I would probably go Nin/Drk since stun still builds hate even if it doesn't land, but some of the benefits of /Rdm are really really nice for lowman.

Due to the several good merit spells for Rdm, you really have to have specialized Red Mages imo. I focused on Slow II and Phalanx II for my Rdm. And we have others that have focused on Paralyze II or Bio III. No, my Rdm hasn't hit 300 Enhancing (yet), but I can live with 27 dmg reduction instead of 28 dmg reduction.

And having Slow II / Paralyze II / Bio III on a mob helps out any tank tremendously.

If you want a free ticket into an endgame LS as a tank you want to be PLD. I have never once been asked to come NIN to tank anything other than little stuff like Aura Pots and the NM Olla in Sky. You can tank stuff like Genbu and maybe Byakko with a lot of support on NIN, but PLD/NIN wins in both situations though.

If you are doing low man stuff like said earlier than NIN is a good choice if the mobs arn't AoE happy. I've personally fought Bune, Lord of Onzozo, Big Bomb and Evisceration WSNM to name a few in a 2-3 man setup, and have soloed Aquarius and Amemet.

For the biggest HNMs its PLD or GTFO generally.

Again, just depends on what you're doing and the gear/merits/skill of the person tanking.

My best experience seeing someone tank/kite Jailer of Prudence was a RDM/NIN doing it. It was actually not the original plan, but a PLD got dropped and he said he would do it, since he was the backup anyway.

He had excellent gear and is a very skilled player, but he made it look like a joke. We had a Ranger hit JoP with the Shadowbind of Doom (literally lasted almost 3 minutes), and the RDM/NIN dumped an entire MP pool of hate spells on it, then Converted and did some more. After that, the DDs and BLMs could pretty much do whatever they wanted. Had JoP pinned on the bush for a while while people were nuking, too, was LMAO.

SO, it all goes back to the 3-S rule. Situation, Situation, Situation.

p.s. - Chalis (Odin) made a guest appearance with my LS for Divine Might once to redo his earring. This was before he had Burtgang, so ONLY Aegis and Hautclaire. Anyway, he tanked Arch Angels like they were Mandragora.

Pretty sure nin/rdm's can die to holy II just as well as nin/drk(?).

Also, how is decaying hate (volatile enmity) a good thing for a tank? One of the reasons voke is so over-rated is BECAUSE it's VE. On the same token, this is WHY rdm is so good for hate, blind, sleep, cure and dispel (not sure of the exact spells and value as I have no reason to know) all have a decent amount of CE, which especially for a nin who's not taking damage is a great thing to have. Sure you don't have lolvoke, but after one provoke, by the time it's ready to use again a /rdm will have gained nearly as much hate as voke produces, but in CE instead of VE.

Well i was meaning nin/drk can still stun and probably would be the only on to do so when something becomes immune to the spell unless you have a certain crazy tarutaru rdm/drk in your group. I've weaponbashed serpentine tail too :). As far as decaying and nondecaying hate... well it doesn't take long for a good tank with a good set of hate moves to get to the non decaying cap... at which point having some good decaying hate moves are nice too keep it when everyone else eventually gets there

As a tank, to really lock stuff down, your going to want to try to cap both CE and VE and keep them near the cap as much as possible.

Yeah, but how many things are you going to bring a nin/rdm to that live long enough worry about people capping hate? Again, situational... Also, I just realised something...


I was about to ask how the hell you didn't have shadows up after CB, but I guess you were on rdm/drk for chainspell stun?

Yeah... i dont have nin lvld yet... and chainspell stun was a bad idea btw all it ended up doing was getting me hate even after I stopped cause of manashield thingy. However having fast cast with stun helped me stun all the phase change moves easily beat everyone else even though was first time ive ever done it lol

Yeah, he couldn't have been anything else /drk. That'd just be silly.

Looking at the jobs he has levelled, yes, anything else/drk would be stupid. Your point?

You need both.

The person with the highest sum of VE and CE 'has hate'.

Your DD will be building CE throughout the fight and spiking VE, if you have only capped CE, you will reach a point where the DD will take hate (as his VE+CE > your CE).

1. Start of the fight:
Spam a mix of CE and VE spells/abilities, until CE is capped.

2. Once CE is capped:
VE spells/abilities

3. If you take damage (lose CE):
a Few more CE spells/abilities (goto: 2)

Even if you do it perfectly you can still reach a point where the DD has capped is CE as well and reaching the VE cap if they attack to often, which means hate will bounce between you. This only happens in long fights.

At this point its time for the DD to sit on his hands for a min or two until his VE is down to a manageable level (or take a hit or two to lose some CE).

[quote=Argettio]
End Game (single target, not dynamis, lower level limbus etc):
Standard HNM: PLD/NIN (with sword AND shield)
Heavy magic Casters or 'ignores shadows' moves: PLD/RDM
Ultmia, JoL etc: RDM/NIN (not widely used, but very powerful)
Kting: NIN/DRK
[quote]

From what I've seen in my own experience, I'd say this is pretty much on target.

Sky Gods: PLD/NIN x2 (NIN/DRK is fine, too)with planned TA Skillchains and Magic Bursts win the day.
Kirin (non-burned): PLD/NIN, NIN/DRK, or RDM/NIN kiters/tanks

Sea Jailers and Ix'Aerns: NIN/DRK, RDM/NIN, or PLD/NIN (most are kited fights)
Jailer of Love: PLD/RDM, RDM/PLD (seen both used very well)

KS99 Wyrm: NIN x 2 with Fire Resist Setup

Dynamis and Low-level Limbus: PLD/WAR (Maybe a very, very good PLD/RDM)
Ultima: PLD/NIN with CB Setup (Heard of but never seen RDM do this)
Omega: NIN/DRK > PLD/NIN because of ability to get hate faster after a reset

Hakutaku: NIN/WAR (x2 if you can)
Alastor Antlion: PLD/NIN, with NIN/WAR or NIN/DRK to stand tank the pop until NM comes.
Charybdis: NIN/WAR or THF/NIN with Evasion gear
Ungur/Bune/Guivre: Same as Charybdis

Anyway, list could go on and on, but you see that each fight seems to dictate certain types of tanks. PLD and NIN both appear in there several times, and in many cases they are interchangeable.

Yeah, I know how CE and VE work, I just didn't think you'd use nin/rdm in longer fights? Besides, cures and low level/low mp rdm spells have ~180 VE don't they? Plus nin might not be winning many parses, but they're still a decent DD so should be gaining VE through melee and ws's should they not?

(again, these are all serious questions)