The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Its my preference and I like the weapon personally. It'd make sc stepping alot easier.

I have a Kujaku+1, and I do use it a lot as an offhand to my Kikoku (and maybe one day a Heishi). However, it comes with a couple caveats:

1) This weapon is all about TP generation for SC purpose, particularly self SC (even consistent multi-step SC are not too hard to manage with capped delay reduction, and you really do need to be sure you're capping delay to make Kujaku+1 worthwhile). If you're not taking full advantage of the SC utility, other offhands like Kanaria, Ochu, or Shigi are likely better. For instance, any time I'm doing something with other DD who are indiscriminately spamming WS, I tend to get much better results with Kanaria. The major culprit is the loss of additional offhands stats that help your WS damage (e.g. STR/DEX/AGI, crit rate/dmg, attack, etc.)

2) If you need a ton of acc, Shigi is likely better.

The Haste is sort of a non-issue, as it should be pretty rare that you're doing anything where you can't get haste from a player/trust. But in the rare cases where you are truly SOLO or have terrible support, it can be handy. Works just like the old Oynos Knife if anyone rememebers that: Haste 1 (15%), 3min duration, proc rate is pretty reasonable (IDK what, maybe something like 10%? Doesn't take super long to get up, usually). The haste does NOT overwrite existing haste though, you actually have to lose haste entirely in order for it to proc again.

prices on my server if I can 1/16 (t1) avg craft is about 48m.... Just trying to figure out if its worth it or not (ive never HQ anything yet worth hqing, -90 mil on vodoo legs atm for example). I literally cannot find one to buy and idk if it even exists anymore on my server.

1/8!!!! only 24mil for my new toy, but sounds worth it lol.

It's true that NIN can still self SC fairly consistently with other offhands, but an extra OAT+40% after multiattack check sure does give you some extra insurance. Using other weapons, it's much more common to have an unlucky couple of rounds on multiattack procs and occasionally miss your SC window, which can be important if you're really focusing heavily on multi-stepping or solo SC.

Kujaku+1 is definitely an expensive toy and by no means required, and it doesn't replace the need to have other choices available (particularly Kanaria and Shigi), but nobody was saying otherwise. Does still have its uses though - and it's really fun to play with!

After using it I can say your definitely wrong :D well worth the gil it took to make.

The tp gain is VERY noticeable to me. While its true you do not need it to self sc, you will be able to do longer sc series with it no hassle. I have a near perfect tp set on nin (bare HQ abj), and It was even a challenge sometimes to 3 step (2 step never is) due to the window getting smaller. I would almost always time out on 4 steps too unless I got lucky on TA procs.

Last night I had some fun and decided to solo apex crabs w/o any trusts. I had no issue at all the the nice 4 step I did (only 15% haste from the weapon itself) just proved its power and also left the poor crabs at 30%-50% hp. I could never have done that prior to the weapon. This was without food too so I wasnt even acc capped, literally it was to just mess around and see haste activation rate, which is 10%+ easily, its never down for more that a few seconds.

As someone who actively uses nin is setting with shitty mages (aka no haste PUG ambuscades etc) I also find that having my own self haste to go with a blu's MG is just nice. I dont mind having only 30% magic haste normally since my tp set is actually pretty good at 30%. You only need 20 DW at 30% haste (ryuo head, reiki belt, adhemar body) so the sacrifices arent to great to make :D all 3 are awesome pieces for tp.

if you love nin, get this weapon it just makes the job that more fun!!! And really a master nin is going to have really nice SC bonuses anyhow.

I normally will ten>metsu>shun for my 3 step and on crabs its not uncommon to see a 30k+ light and then followed with a 25k MB (50k is futae up) on stuff like apex mobs.

I even see it being useful in ws spam ptys too where your not going to sc. While the main dps boost is from your self sc dmg I am seeing the tp gain rate being so high a definite advantage to aeonic ten spam. In a pure ws spam zerg you will probably use ten on nin with aeonic, at which point all overflow tp is actually very useful. Ten gets a huge dmg boost at 200% tp and I have a feeling (havent tested) that aeonic/kujaku+1 will probably be the leading zerg combo for nin. Reason being, I have seen what cor can do on reisenjima HELMS due to savage blade spam. The reason they can dps so high (be on paar with tiz/alamce blu) is due to ALWAYS having ws mod at 2k tp with the right gun on. They then have blurred knife+1 which allows an insane tp gain, which means they will normally push out more ws's than anyone else at very high dmg too.

mind posting your set(s) please? I'm sure it's along the lines of that posted in the sticky tho, i'm just curious (mainly re: augments)

edit and cg on the synth!

the fact he's trying to sell it for 80m couldn't possibly have anything to do with his glowing review, could it

obviously doesn't win on the spreadsheet, the math behind skillchain consistancy is pretty complicated but i also own one and don't use it because it seems slower

Umm no, the reason why COR offhand blurred +1 is not because OAT weapons are awesome, but because COR simply doesn't have access to anything better, no reisen weapon nor REMA. Basically any job with access to higher dps melee weapon such as reisenjima weapon or 269 REMA isn't ideal to use blurred weapons.

Savage COR also aren't "on par" with REMA blu unless blu isn't using CDC which it's best WS. You are competing with a job that has REMA access, OA 2 to 3 aftermath or 30% OAT, with the ability to dual 2 REMA for even higher dps, and store tp and TA job trait v.s a job that's stuck with pre reisen weapons and zero offensive job trait. If OAT offhand is that good all blu would be using sequence offhand blurred and spam Savage too.

Ya my gear is what is in the guide -HQ abj, just NQ atm. My herc for tp all has 30~ acc 4 TA, and the ws gear has stuff like WSD3-5% (metsu/ten) and high acc/att/dex/TA for shun. I have a good Hi set too, but tbh I never use high outside of SC needs which is rare. I also use seki ammo instead of the 10mil +1 ammo haha. I do have the titan shurikens though for acc needs.

Not really selling it. On my server blurred go for 50m+ so the 80m is that (sure haggle with me) price since none have ever sold and I only know of one being on my server, while there are tons of nins that would want one too. In the era of 200mil rings, 600mil bodies, etc this isnt to unreal. I honestly like it to much to aim and sell it for much less (since id just use the gil to remake myself one). If you want one, bring me mats and i will just synth it.

in essence you get an effective DA+20 (40%/2) from this weapon for tp phase.... I cannot see how that is not a big deal. We freaked over 10 DA on ambuscade capes and this is double that for avg attack rounds.

NIN would never DW two RMEA weapons. It's not the same as BLU with potential to use Almace, or THF DNC Twash. AGI+50 from offhand Kannagi doesn't buff Hi enough to make that a worthwhile choice, and offhand Kikoku/Nagi/Heishi are fairly pointless.

COR also has much higher WS damage without many other offhand choices that provide a big boost, so proportionally COR is helped a bit more by WS frequency than some jobs.

However... none of that is really what situational use of OAT offhand is about for NIN though. It's less about maximizing your own personal melee DPS than it is about keeping extremely consistent ability to SC/multistep, with a lot of the party damage coming in the form of MBs from others (or after the final WS in a SC, tacking on a Ninjutsu nuke from the NIN). You're ensuring you can keep those SCs rolling as well as possible, particularly when you're the only melee.

One example for me, duoing high tier avatars with a nuker friend. I unleash near constant SC spam, allowing for plenty of MBs and better overall party damage than if I was using a stronger physical DPS weapon and fewer/less consistent self-SCs for MBs.

Again, it's not the end all NIN weapon, and in MANY cases it clearly loses to different offhands like Kanaria/Shigi/Ochu. But there are situations and party setups where it does perform really well, so it's a nice option at times. Expensive, yes. But if you don't mind tossing some money at the job for a situational piece, you can make it work in some not extremely uncommon scenarios.

it's not 20% DA because it procs after real TA/DA..

my tp set has 2 QA, 26 TA, 33 DA..

that means

2% chance of 4 hits

.98 * .26 = 25.48% chance of 3 hits

.7252 * .33 = 23.9316% chance of 2 hits

this leaves 48.5884% of your hits not already multiattacking

only half of those hits are going to be with your offhand, which means 24.2942% of your swings have a chance to proc blurred

40% procrate means you'll get an extra swing out of it 9.71768% of your attack swings

then you have to factor that it's not even a real 9.7% increase in #/attacks, because your attack average before that is:

4 * .02
+
3 * .2548
+
2 * 23.9316
+
1 * 48.5884

1.808916

now, you take 1.9060928 and divide it by 1.808916 and you have the real boost in quantity/attacks: 5.37% (less if you factor daken..)

OAT weapons is usually bad because the dps is very low. And TP gain isn't as fast as you claimed. There's no way a cor would out TP blu as well.

I'm actually having both blu and cor spreadsheet opened atm. With 40 stp from rolls and capped haste, almace sequence blu has 2.86 round ws, COR has 3.60 with capped haste and same buff and exact same tp set. If blu uses Tizona then round ws lowers to 2.73.

In other words blu still tp way faster than oat offhand cor. Cor can only offhand oat because this job has absolutely terrible access to melee weapons. That doesn't make oat weapon good. That's why you don't see THF offhand blurred +1, instead they offhand empy.

THF or DNC also offhand empy (or something like Taming Sari) because the DEX is a massive help to gigantic WS that are a far greater proportion of overall THF DPS than katana WS are to NIN.

NIN still has access to dps weapon released post 2015-08 though. OAT weapon are basically AH weapon released in 2015-08 that the purpose was to provide people access to something at that time. It's meant to be inferior to endgame drops and reisenjima drops. After AG weapon release it's even further behind. Even on jobs with limited DD options like sword DD RUN oat weapon isn't ideal offhand, let alone jobs with better offhand options such as reisen weapon.

If COR has access to Taming, regardless of how strong Savage is the best offhand would be Taming, not blurred +1. Even at 25k savage ws avg on my spreadshee now Taming is a better offhand than blurred +1 for COR. "High ws avg" really doesn't justify oat offhand IMO.

I will just stick with this saying.

No sense in arguing its not going to change my mind. I have ochu/kanarai/shigi anyhow and can sc much easier with this weapon than any of those. Thats enough reason for any nin who really loves the job to get it IMO. Situations change and now I can actively perform long sc's with little issue.

If I need acc - shigi
If I want max nin nukes - ochu
If I am acc capped and no chance at SC and I have a dedicated person to cast haste - Kanarai

Seeing as I use nin mainly to solo, SC dmg is the fastest way for me to boost dps. This allows me to increase in essence every ws (sc dmg not resisted). I cant argue with that!

No one is arguing about oat makes it easier to make SC though. People is just trying to provide more accurate information because a lot of what you said in previous posts are just eyeballed results and the info are misleading.

People keep asking for these same spreadsheets. Can you please provide them?
If you're going to constantly bring them up as evidence to a claim, it's only fair to share them with everyone.
Especially since we have no idea how valid/correct these spreadsheets are.

I woould second that, the Nin spreadsheet I have is so old that kik AM still doesnt get reflected lol....

The one that I have and used in this discussion to compare cor v.s blu tp gain speed is obviously not NIN spreadsheet, and they're all in the job guide..... you sound like Im hiding nin spreadsheet somewhere but I didn't.

You never provide spreadsheets.
You constantly bring them up to your arguments, but you do not provide them.
It's normal to provide evidence you are using to back up to your claims.

This is the only spreadsheet I've seen you link to directly:
You linked to a warrior spreadsheet in the random question thread, and it was stated that spreadsheet is wrong and doesn't consider crits properly, so it's not usable.

How do we know if your spreadsheets are just as inaccurate? You need to provide them. You still haven't - you just say go visit other thread.

Link me directly to the spreadsheets, don't make me track down YOUR evidence. You are the one who brought it up, you should be the one to provide it. Otherwise it's faulty evidence and has no baring on the discussion.

The BLU spreadsheet is right on the first page of job guide and COR spreadsheet is on the last few pages of job guide too.

If every time when we are having a dps discussion I have to dig the link from the job guide because people are too lazy to look for them then it's going to take a lot of time. I often type on my phone and I don't have that kind of energy to look for the link then copy paste them, every-single-time.

Spreadsheet has been used in dps discussion for years and traditionally it's not people's responsibility to link them every time we are having a dps discussion.

Why should I have to track down your evidence? You brought it up.
The blu one isn't that hard to find(but I still shouldn't have to do it for you), but are you honestly telling me I should go look through an entire thread of OVER ONE HUNDRED PAGES to find your evidence? That's insanity.

It's your responsibility to provide evidence to back up your claims. IT ALWAYS IS. That's how the court of law works, that's how any proper discussion works.

You again, refuse to provide the spreadsheets. Why is that?

Anyways:

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/110460-DPS-Spreadsheets?highlight=Dos+spreadsheet

These spreadsheets haven't been updated for years. These are the ones most people use, they're pretty inaccurate, because not updated for years.



Here's the blu one, stated to be inaccurate in the guide itself.

These are not the "end all be all" for DPS discussions. So you probably shouldn't bring them up at every chance you get, and instead provide your own math and data. Also, this discussion was talking about scing - which the outdated spreadsheets don't account for properly.

Yes, you only brought it up for TP gain, but it's already been stated that all the spreadsheets are inaccurate. Inaccurate things are null and void and should not be used to back up claims.

Please bring your own math and personal testings to discussions, because "spreadsheet says x" no longer works, and hasn't for years.

ps: Let people have fun with weapons they want to use please.

I personally wouldnt trust any of the guide spreedsheets atm, most are years old and I still am trying to track one down that accurately follows the 121 AM bonuses for kik....

Lot of their defaults too are bogus and mobs stats are made up and not real. I found this out very clearly when testing with MAB on crabs and we couldnt figure out base stats, this was pre mob nerfs too, so now they are going to be even more outdated!

If you do find a good nin spreedsheet however please do link it i would love to use one i can trust.

If you actually read the statement it says it lacks SC dps and spell dmg

We were having discussion with blus tp speed v.s a cor offhand oah weapon, and SC spell dmg is irrelevant when we only looked at round ws tab.

I don't understand, spreadsheet is literally on the first page of job guide and yet whenever people are having a dps discussion you need to link it every time? Its basically more work when I already did the work to open 2 files and copy and paste results.

This also isn't court of the law and there are no responsibility to relink source of info in every discussion when the source of info isn't even hard to find.

if you are not convinced that using oat weapon lowers dps feel free to use it(and lower your own dps) just because you don't even bother to check the first page of job guide, it's not information providers responsibility to ensure everyone has optimized performance.

If the source of info came from something like jp blog then I'll agree with you that link must be provided. But spreadsheet from job guide?

When you are asked to link to a spreadsheet that you are using in an argument, it's normal to link it. Especially one that's 100+ pages into a guide.

The spreadsheets are also inaccurate, all of them are. There isn't a single up to date one that isn't inaccurate. They are not valid to use in any argument or discussion and need to stop being used.
Please use your own math/testings instead!

Thorny's post was great. It taught me things as well, I learned better how OAT works in conjunction with da/ta/qa. It showed me why an OAT weapon isn't really as good as it looks to be. I really enjoyed his post.

I like Azagarth's post too, not having actual math, but his personal testing. it's more eyeballing so not 100% accurate, but at least he did it himself.

Nope, the blu and cor one is pretty updated, definitely less than 1 year old.

I'm not seeing how mob stats are relevant in a tp speed discussion.

Anyways, if you don't trust the result feel free to make gearing decisions based on eyeballed result, I highly doubt it's going to be more accurate than spreadsheet result, personally.

Why would I eyeball?
Parsers exist.
Parsers are reading the combat log, thus have much less chance(nearly zero?) of being inaccurate. A spreadsheet is not the actual game engines info, it's something someone else created, and aren't up to date, aka outdated.

Ok, so spreadsheet results are inaccurate, how are you gonna have a dps discussion then? Eyeball?
Maybe you could provide a way to determine better way to gear.

Regardless of how inaccurate spreadsheets are Id rather rely on it than the opinion of another guy on the internet who has a long history of eyeballing dps and claiming Savage blade cor is on par with REMA BLU.