The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

I used the spreadsheets created and posted here by Langly and others. Switched up a few targets and buffs, using my normal TP gear (which is prob pretty similar to most well geared NINs), and was consistently seeing Happo win easily.

Also, I forgot that Happo/+1 has Racc+10/11 in addition to the 228 skill, so almost the same thing as the 242 skill on Seki (14 more skill * 0.9 = 12.6 Racc on Seki, compared to 10~11 Racc on Happo). We can essentially throw out the throwing skill difference as a relevant concern.

So, we're really down to comparing Seki's Stp+2 and atk+7~8 versus Happo/+1's accuracy +5/6 and crit +1%/2%.

Throw out acc/atk if you're really capped (though I have a hard time believing you're really capped attack on almost anything of consequence these days, and capped acc is not a given either). On difficult content where accuracy matters and you're not capped acc, it's a total no brainer in favor of Happo.

If just focused on crit rate and store tp, I don't see why it's that surprising that crit rate on NIN comes out better than a small amount of store tp that realistically probably only benefits you through a minor amount of excess TP on WS. Not enough extra WS damage to outweigh the crit damage, simple as that.

What scenarios specifically? I am attack capped on basically everything I do on ninja (Idris GEO etc.) In that situation (which I think is relevant because I do not think it is that uncommon for serious players, especially if you're talking about what gear is best), 2% critical hit rate is not going to add much to white damage.

Grab Langly's spreadsheets here (several pages ago in this thread) and check for yourself with whatever buffs you like, on whatever targets you like. If there are some errors in the sheet that you discover, please share.

I did some on i135 targets, both with more modest buffs and buffed to the moon (COR+GEO+BRD with Berserk and Innin up/down, couple different weapon setups, etc.). Some on lower level garbage. Some on super high end 145. I never got Seki winning. YMMV, I guess, if you figure out that it's not the case in situations you typically find yourself in. Check and see?

Even with Idris GEO Frailty/Fury (which I usually don't have), I suspect most NIN actually aren't likely to be capping attack on very hard content (e.g. Reisen T3+). Even stuff like i135 mobs have enough defense that you really have to have superb buffs to cap attack. That's one reason why Kikoku performs so well in most situations, you're getting real benefit out of the atk+10% AM. (and, hey, if you're not attack capped you're actually getting some additional benefit out of Seki's atk+13...)

You say 2% crit rate won't add much to white damage, but 2 Store TP also isn't gonna add a lot to WS damage/frequency. Even if you manage to be in some kind of scenario where Seki does win, I can't imagine it being by much... and more likely, sometimes you're in scenarios where additional accuracy helps. If anything, just for that reason I'd rather use Happo+1 to cover myself in those cases (though from all I can see, it wins even if acc is a total non-issue).

You said yourself that you never even bothered spreadsheeting it, so I'm not sure why you're so sure Store TP+2 must be such a significant win. Just doesn't appear to be the case to me, using the math provided by others. And doesn't really surprise me to see those results.

I have also not adjusted any of the mobs for the new evasion totals. I have some of em from Falkirk, I just haven't adjusted em. lol

I am skeptical because at capped attack 2% critical hit rate is less than a 1% marginal gain on white damage, it should be closer to .5%. What weapons did you use?

Also I was able to try out that 7 step skillchain. With low attack on Qilin, a 6580 Shun closed with a 47533 Radiance. I had the 30% skillchain damage atma on (42% skillchain bonus total). I do not know what level Qilin is, but if it's over 199 it will take reduced skillchain damage (1.35 vs 1.5 mod). It seemed like Samurai Roll is required, I had a hard time getting this to happen otherwise. I think with the right storms you could get the Radiance to do 9.5~10.5 your original WS damage. This would be 99k on a lot of content but it is kind of interesting to think about the viability of solo NIN DD on high level content.

Haven't used Langly's updated spreadsheet in a couple of months, but last time I did on very high level targets with buff up the acc of my ranged attacks was floored to 20% in the spreadsheet data section when using Happo Shuriken.

To be fair I think there's something wrong in the spreadsheet math though, it can't possibly be THAT low.
I know Sange provides a pretty big racc bonus (+100?) at 5/5 but what about Daken? Does Daken have an imbued racc bonus as well?
If so then probably that "racc %" value I was seeing in the spreadsheet is the theoeretical racc I would have if I were to simply use the "throw" command but not the racc I really get when Daken procs?

If that's how things are then spreadsheet needs some tweak in there, maybe to also calculate the additional Daken proc rate we get from Gifts.



Concerning the rest I agree with Capcuchin's posts, and honestly you shouldn't even need to math it out to see how Happo+1 is clearly the best option out there.
At the same time I wish we could get more Shuriken options, SE have been stingy with shurikens.
The only ilevel 119 which you can buy (or craft) is Sasuke which has basically no stats at all.
The AA GK one doesn't exist (I'm 0/21 with TH on it).
There's eminent shurikens if you wanna waste easy stuff on trash but they're ilevel 117
Happo Shurikens are rare, even the NQs, on Asura. HQ simply doesn't exist.
I already accidentally wasted 2x NQ Happos despite my super failsafe security function in my Lua.
*** Sange >_______>

I do use Mochizuki Body during Sange btw, unless I'm haste capped. In 20% Haste and 0% haste situations I think I swap to it during Sange but I'm not sure it's worth it for... what, 125 ratt?
Mochizuki body by itself is not teh ***though, if you can adjust your other pieces in low haste situations it can be a decent nice body piece, while clearly never the best of course.

So basically assuming all RAtts hit Sange adds ~22 RAtts and one extra WS every 5min?
Hmm... a bit disillusioned here. I mean its something of course but kind of felt like more. Guess you have to add the SC dmg as well if you need Sange to performe solo SCs.

All Curio Moogles sell Happo/Suppa/Haciya/Roppo stacks for 19k each!

Oh damn I forgot about Curio Moogles, I lost my 3 (it was actually three! not two) Happo NQ before that if I recall.
Took me weeks to buy 2 new ones (actually put a second on my mule to have a backup lol)

None of those sold by the Curio moogle is 119 though? I think the only 119 shuriken you can buy from NPC atm is the "arasy" one from the NPC in Jeuno, and those are SU1.
And honestly the stats on those suck so much that arguably even 117 Eminent ones are better, despite the lower Ranged skill.

Someone bazaar have the HQ one for 10m each.

You can buy NQ Happo from the moogles.

I faintly remember there being another 100racc bonus to daken procs, and it even being talked about/tested somewhere... (this being outside of Sange).

I have not implemented gifts at all yet in that sheet and not sure when I will do so. It has been on my mind though..

Yeah but the point is how does the spreadsheet calculate Daken's accuracy?
In the Data sheet I've only seen "ranged accuracy", that's probably the default racc not the Daken enhanced racc, which would explain why it reads 20% (floored) while in my experience Daken's acc is surely low but not THAT low.
(biased eyeballed comment, I know...)

I grabbed Langly's spreadsheet. I stated this before but the 1000% fTP value for Blade: Ten is incorrect. Literally the first scenario I set up (using my gear on a level 100 mob) had Seki ahead of Happo. This doesn't surprised me at all, especially given Langly's feedback. He said he hasn't updated the spreadsheet to support gifts and that mob evasion hasn't been updated. Both of these will tilt the comparison in favor of Happo +1. Either way, if you are attack/accuracy capped (and I do feel this is the most common situation for me), Seki will win.

This argument feels a little pointless.

Like take, Seki. It would take roughly 50000 TP for the +2 STP to produce 1000 TP. Given 210 delay and 35% DW that is 53 TP a hit so it would require 943 swings to see 1000 TP come from seki.

Those same 943 swings would crit an additional 18 times with Happo +1 for what 300 extra damage, no idea how to value that. That is about 5400 damage or so assuming a crit is giving you a bonus of 300 damage. 5400 dmg vs. another weapon skill over 943 swings - seems pretty moot.

Man, and I know I've changed that like 3 times now. I wonder if my work/home computer is messing version of this thing up or something.

I guess we could also factor in the extra attack from Seki that Happo doesn't have. Seki will probably win out for TPing in. The difference seems minor though.

How hard is it to farm up a lifetime supply of seki shurikens?

Gonna agree on this for my last input on the shuriken comparison. It really doesn't matter a ton, either one is pretty close.

The one situation where the differences might actually be significant is uncapped acc scenarios, where Happo clearly wins thanks to the melee accuracy. Since that at least happens sometimes, I'll just err toward caution and use the shuriken that is certainly better in that situation. If both of them are nearly the same on acc-capped stuff, it's not like I'm losing out in any significant way.


Level 100? Well... I don't really bother spreadsheeting for ultra-trash level content. Did you have Idris GEO buffs for those dangerous Chapuli outside of Adoulin? ;)

Seriously though, I'm more concerned about optimizing for stuff at the level of Apex mobs, VD Ambuscade, lv135 UNMs, melee-friendly Reisenjima NMs, etc. Endgame-ish content where a melee would be potentially useful. Maybe comparisons change a bit when you're looking at extremely trivial content.

I wouldn't recommend using them with Sange, but 1 pouch from AA GK will give you 99 of them (so even if you goof you have some leeway.)

It may seem like splitting over hairs but one of the purposes of this thread is to discuss what is the most optimal gear you can have without bias or personal preference. It's going to be different depending on what situation you're in. I think the most practical approach to this is to establish a base set where accuracy/attack are capped and work your way up using swaps for whatever situation you're in. Seki is the superior option for the base set. The margin might seem small but if you shrug off small margins for every slot you're going to end up pretty far behind.

Out of curiosity on which targets exactely are you attack capped?

If you're wondering why I choose level 100, let me reiterate a few reasons.

- The spreadsheet is not up to date with mob evasion (this is huge)
- The spreadsheet does not seem to do Geo buffs correctly and doesn't have options for many debuffs
- The spreadsheet does not take into account skillchain damage (the value of weaponskill damage is grossly undervalued)
- The spreadsheet does not take into account gifts

I agree with a non-trash content of evaluation of gear. That said, your tools need to be realistic. Given just the information we know here it's easy to see how far off they are. I'm not saying they're not useful just that it is clear that the difficulty of relevant content is over represented. If you know you're using a tool when you know the results its producing aren't valid, all you're doing exercising your confirmation bias.

Again I'm not saying Seki Shuriken is what you should be using for every situation but it is the clear winner for the base set.

More than "hard" it's "annoying".
AA GK has annoying pop items and incredibly low drop rate even with THF.
I'm like >0/20 on the Seki shuriken pouches.

The fight in itself it's not hard at all, granted I'm not sure you could really solo it (unless you got a plethora of useful mules I guess)

A lot of content I am capped attack because my group has a lot of Idris GEO we can multi box. It's not hard to do when you can have BoG or EA Frailty and Fury. It's especially easy to do these days because the accuracy requirement is so much lower you can start using attack food over sushi.

I apreciate you specified that you can count on a lot of Idris GEO, but that "a lot of content" doesn't really give me an idea of what you mean :x

Sorry if I sound silly but I'm really curious, because on the kind of content I have in mind you don't cap ATT even with Bolster Idris Fury+Frailty, which means you must be thinking about something else!

What aren't you capping ratio on with 94.2% (Bolster Idris Frailty + Uku'xkaj Boots Dia II) Def down?

Provided you don't need the accuracy from Happo, Seki shuriken will perform better than Happo.

The major differences between the two shurikens are rather small. Using Snaps assumption that he's capped accuracy and capped attack, then you're comparing a lower base DMG shuriken, to a higher base dmg Shuriken. The contribution of 1~2% crit rate to 2 Store TP are so minimal it's difficult to even evaluate.

In the situation I'm looking at, 2 store TP doesn't even change my Katana TP/hit, only the shuriken TP/hit (125 vs 126). And 1 or 2% crit rate adds next to nothing with the amount of crit rate I already have.

When lookin at them spreadsheets(yea yea, I put about an hour work into it just a second ago), when attack and accuracy do not matter, the Seki will deal more damage. But it isn't even about the store tp, it's about the base dmg of the thing.

Personally... I like to have an unending supply from the Moogle. :3

My base set attack with Berserk + Bolster Idris Fury is 3057. It would be more with other buffs (Ionis/Vorseals/etc.). Bolster Idris Frailty is defense -83.4%, meaning the mob would need 5140 defense before you were no longer attack capped. Mobs like that don't exist.

Having Bolster Idris Frailty/Fury on everything is a silly assumption, but as pointed out before the key to capping attack is to stack defense reducing debuffs. I think just BoG Frailty + Fury + Dia II is enough to comfortably cap attack up to ilevel 140-145 but I'm certain on that.

acc matter you know

I would like to use sange, but I cant justify the gil splurge for very minimal dmg. Its kind of neat though and this discussion has got me considering it.

I assume when you use sange, since your still tping, there would be no reason at all to change tp gear, correct?

Has the spreed sheet been updated?

Boots don't affect