The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

I'll gladly test Nagi offhand enmity if the forum wants to donate the rest of the (20k+) Alex I need to finish that slow long-term project ;)

Someone here has AG'd Nagi. Lenus, where are you at? Your moment is now.

Don't even need AG, the completed lv75 version has Enmity+10 on it and should work the same as higher level versions.

So, with the RMEA augments revealed, and assuming the WS effects are "normal" WSD, some preliminary thoughts with very limited spreadsheet tinkering:

Kikoku really got a VERY nice boost, that Metsu DMG+20% is quite strong on a WS that was already decent for damage with good SC properties. Now makes Metsu absolutely the choice to spam with Kikoku (to the point where using anything else is seriously detrimental), and this weapon can legitimately hang with Kannagi/Heishi instead of languish in 3rd place by a somewhat significant distance. With lower buffs, it now looks to jump ahead of Heishi in a whole lot of scenarios I've seen (but generally still behind Kannagi in such situations).

Heishi still looks to be the top performer if you're totally loaded up with buffs, but the Acc it received was a fairly modest addition in comparison to the stronger WS buffs the other members of the big 3 got. And the Shun DMG+ is frankly underwhelming, since (a) when you're heavily buffed you will still get more out of Ten (or hybrid), and (b) when you do go into low-buff Shun situations, it gets much less out of some extra WSD than Metsu or Hi get on theirs. Ultimate SC is a relevant perk too though, so that's definitely something to keep in mind.

Kannagi continues to be a very strong performer, and probably the best offensive choice in more of a mid to low buff scenario. You're further locked into using Blade: Hi to reach the weapon's potential, but the 10% boost is nice and the DEX/AGI+20 is very welcome indeed for the array of benefits the attributes provide. Empy AM is also slightly harder to use than WS spam Aeonic or Relic, but honestly, it's not THAT hard to get a TP burst to 3000tp on NIN (especially with Sange) and get to Hi Hi Hi Hi Hi...

As for the Divergence weapons...
a) I really don't necessarily know how to place Fudo Masamune in all of this as a mainhand quite yet, especially the B path until we really understand how the extra attack chance works. A path is pretty strong though with DA/STP, and is a top contender for king of DPS... but will fluctuate pretty wildly depending upon (1) whether you're attack capped, and (2) how easily you can maintain shadows without yoyo-ing all over the place with respect to the atk/shadows stat. Looks like Shun is going to be the WS of choice with it though, which is interesting since all 4 of Relic/Empy/Aeonic/Divergence will favor a different WS (and Aeonic not usually favoring the one that is directly associated with its weapon).

b) HQ1 Mochizuki Shinobi-gatana hangs pretty well too though as compared to RMEA, and is a steal for the price for anybody lacking an existing RMEA mainhand for sure.

c) Fudo Masamune and Mochizuki are also incredibly strong offhands to any mainhand. HQ1 version is especially nice for anyone looking for a very strong offhand without spending hundreds of millions of gil or needing an Empy like our dagger/sword using friends, and it's probably the second best in slot choice behind only the higher quality Divergence weapon. The atk+ per shadow DOES apply when offhanded, as does the large amount of Acc (and higher than 242 skill), and the sneaky good huge Racc for Daken. If you have absolutely no accuracy or attack issues, performance does slip a bit though and you could still see a Kanaria/Ochu win here. Really strong offhands though.

d) Oh, another interesting thing... if you have Divergence katanas in both mainhand AND offhand, the attack per utsesemi shadow DOES stack between the two of them (I personally tested, grabbed a second HQ1 katana to play with it and prob do 2 different augment paths). As in, if equip Mochizuki x2 with Atk+10 per shadow, cast a 7 shadow Utsu:San, you get Atk+140. And who knows if Empy feet +3 will give even more shadows XD

TL;DR:
1) This really solidifies that all three of the Relic/Empy/Aeonic weapons are in a closer cluster (along with Divergence HQ2/HQ1 weapons) and the ideal choice for the situation will come down to buffs/targets.
2) Kikoku was prob the biggest winner of the update as the existing RMEA katanas go, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is usually the "best" choice, just that it's in much closer contention as a legitimate top end choice versus the pre-augment thinking that it was more a top tier of Heishi and Kannagi depending on buffs, with Kikoku lagging a good bit behind.

I like the Kikoku augs.
Think you're underestimating the Shun ones though.
If it's anything like the WS bonus previously found on Relic and Mythic weapons, it's not WSD but a straight Damage increase for all of the WS and not a % bonus to the first hit of the WS.

Shun is already quite a nice WS, seeing it perform 10% better, as small as 10% is, is no small feat.



Regardless I agree the gap between those weapons softened, compared to pre-patch.
Think the same happened pretty much for the majority (all?) of the weapons, but the tiers remain the same for most of the weapon categories.


All in all I think it's a shame Relic are the only ones who received "unique" augments.

Yeah you may be right, I'm interested to see exactly what the Ws bonus is in real life testing. But still, Heishi getting a boost to Shun isn't exactly incredibly appealing since (a) if you're getting high buffs Ten is prob still gonna be better thanks to TP Bonus, and (b) if you're using Shun because buffs are lower, you're likely in a situation where Kannagi and Kikoku both beat it now even with a stronger Shun.

emphasis on *may* lol
I just wanted to remind how the old Mythic/Relic WS boosts were different from WSD. No clue about these new ones but it would be reasonable to expect them using the same tech they used to implement the old ones, no?


I mean, I'm not going around the streets naked shouting how joyfully orgasmic it is lulz, it's clearly a small thing, but I don't get why you're being so lukewarm about it either.

I mean Shun is not really THAT bad in many situations.
On stuff that gives reduced/increased damage on each hit, Shun tipically performs better than Ten regardless of buffs, because of the hits.
Ok ok, incredibly rare situation.
But there's a plethora of scenarios where you're getting lots of buffs but you're not att capped where Shun performs either the same or better or very close to Ten, or maybe it's just more preferable because of SC properties adding more Alliance DPS instead of Ten actually reducing it because of how it would break SC flow.

There's that, and it's no small thing in a lot of scenarios I can think.

Plus in low buff situations it reduces the gap between Heishi Shorinken (which was tipically behind other options, and likely still is) and stuff like Kikoku or Kannagi.

I mean I dunno, 10% to an already good (but not stellar) WS is a small thing, but I welcome it with open arms.
Unlike, say, 10% to Exenterator which will change absolutely nothing for instance, if we want to name another really good Aeonic weapon.



tl;dr
it's all about softening the gaps between these weapons.
In situations were Heishi uses to lose, it's now a bit closer to other options. In situations were Heishi uses to win now it's, again, a bit closer to other options (arguably behind in a couple, maybe)

I mean, a boost is a boost. It's nice, and we're not talking about... IDK, Exenterator or some such WS. But it's no Metsu 20% increase, it's no Hi 10% and AGI+20 increase (and DEX adding more crit rate), and even on its own associated weapon the newly boosted Shun is probably still no match for Ten/Hybrid thanks to Aeonic TP Bonus.

I'm also not talking about the little bump to base weapon DMG these all received, but I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Just not especially interesting or changing the way we think about the weapon.


Yeah, and that's a perfectly reasonable point. Plus, Shun's use in Radiance can't be ignored and the damage boost might be more useful there - that application seems like the biggest boost to Aeonic from the whole set of augments, TBH.


Fair enough. But if somebody has multiple options (BIG if, due to the lack of clarity on how much of a drag the augmenting process is, even assuming Wave 3 wins to bypass the JP method), in those situations where Heishi would lose - but now lose by less with better Shuns closing the gap... it's still gonna lose. So why not change weapons?

Speaking of augmenting speed there's a post in the other thread that mentions a neck being fully upgraded in a single run of wave1+wave2 farming.

Not sure if it was NQ, HQ1 or HQ2 neck.
I'm assuming (but maybe I'm wrong?) that since SE used a word called "rank" to define them Rank15, 20 and 25 respectively for the three qualities, that the HQ2 will require more points to be fully upgraded.


Regardless it sounds like something that won't take more than a few runs to be upgraded. Maybe a bit more for weapons but we're talking in the range of 1-2 months at worst here, not half an year.
Of course I'm taking for granted the "unlock" process being already done. I'm aware that for people without a LS that will actually be the grindiest part of the process, probably.

Are the sets on the main page up to date? Made kikoku a few weeks ago and wanted to start getting serious about ninja. Does anyone have any sets on their profile page I can take a look at?

They didn't put any effort into the augments. Racc+30 should have been added to Heishi for sure to pair with the acc. Kikoku ninjutsu cast time is an awful augment, super lazy and wasted potential there. I'm hearing people saying Metsu is top WS now. Any evidence behind this or is it just the "metsu is bestu" crowd overjoyed with excitement?

The reason kikoku (and metsu) are good(best) is because nin is one of the few jobs that actually benefit from having att+ on relic.

And because Blade:Hi isn't as great as it could be

Aeonic tp bonus is just too good

If you run "attack capped" 100% of the time, like everyone else assumes, in literally all scenarios, you'll get heishi winning I bet

Heishi wins in attack capped scenarios and most uncapped scenarios as well. The TP bonus on shun amounts to something like cratio x 1.85. Hi is only cratio +1 when it crits. It's not competitive unless you're severely attack starved. Metsu seems more lucrative here for attack capped scenarios. Ten WS properties suck. If you break skillchains you're lowering alliance DPS.

that's just Lunatone

It's not the best. It got better, but it's not the best. (But ~saying~ 'Metsu is Bestu' is fun, just like 'Nin is Win')

Even when hovering around cRatio 2.0 give or take .5, I still get Heishi (un augmented) beating Kikoku (Augmented).

I have a feeling it's still going to be Heishi or Kannagi that's going to walk away the winner in 90% of scenarios.

(Has Austar done any work on the simulation since last time it was mentioned? Does he have a core I could work off of? I have some free time, might throw some hours at fleshing it out.)

Edit(#4): I've input a Kikoku Aug into the sheet linked on the ol' drop box. It's currently applying a 60% Metsu bonus (as I have no idea if that metsu bonus is multiplicative or additive to it's already 40% metsu bonus) I'll slowly add the others as I go along and more info becomes available.

I think you might be underselling the Kikoku. In near attack capped situations, I expect Metsu to perform better than Shun but worse than Ten. If Ten is unviable because of skillchain properties, then Metsu may be the winner. I think you'll need to have both Kikoku and Heishi if you want to be prepared for most situations.

Everything is going according to plan.

Edit: Also WSD in order for me is Ten > Metsu > Hi/Shun

Ten doing 30-40k, Metsu ~36k highest I've seen, and Hi kind of floats around 20, although thats probably the worst of my sets

Let me add these are just the high ranges again, like the highest I've ever seen ten was 40,181, highest metsu was like 36.4k e

Yeah this was my knee-jerk reaction too. However, I got a little more comfortable with the macc at least having some legitimate use for enfeeble/nuke purposes.

At least it's better than ninjutsu cast time like Kikoku got, which... agreed, that sucks. If they wanted to give it a "utility" stat, why not stick something like ninjutsu RECAST delay-, or ninjutsu enhancing duration+ (like our 550 JP gift).

Kannagi was the winner on the 3rd stat (aside from the small DMG boost and the associated WS damage+ that all of them received). DEX/AGI are great in all key phases of the game. Acc, Racc, crit rate, eva, WS mod for the weapon's main WS... I'm pleased with that one.


It's definitely top WS *for augmented Kikoku* now. WS damage+20% is massive, and it was already a fairly good WS for damage, with excellent SC properties.

Edit: Also, the fact that Metsu/Kikoku got better still doesn't mean it's the #1 katana choice in many scenarios. Looks to me like it's pretty much still always behind Kannagi regardless of buff/target situation, often behind Heishi (but not necessarily so in lower buff situations), but at least Kikoku made up a lot of the prior gap when it used to fall to 3rd place by a more substantial margin.

As is, we're seeing a more stark division of each weapon getting its own DIFFERENT best WS.

Kikoku: Metsu. Post-augments, this seems undisputable since the already pretty good WS got a huge buff.

Kannagi: Hi was already the main choice for Kannagi (and only Kannagi), and more WS DMG and attribute (AGI+70???) further cements that.

Heishi Shorinken: Ten or hybrid, because TP Bonus. Shun isn't BAD either, but is clearly a lower priority that would be used more in either non-optimal buff situations or explicitly for SC/Aeonic aftermath purposes.

Fudo Masamune (or any non-RMEA, really): Shun will be the primary WS choice, since the weapon can't take advantage of the unique reasons to use different WS on the other katanas and it performs the best in a "vanilla" scenario. Divergence katana's large potential Atk+ with shadows up also sometimes plays nice with Shun and takes more advantage of the TP Modifier on the WS.


This is the pre-update thinking for sure, but that atk+ advantage has been somewhat devalued by the huge atk potential of offhanding a Divergence katana (which also just murdered the niche use of Shigi for high acc). Having over 100 atk on offhand sure helps to make NIN's frequent atk deficiencies on gear a bit more manageable.

For most weapons, yeah. But obviously not on the one with AGI+70 post-augments. And this thinking does somewhat downplay the fact that we're swimming in good WSD and AGI/crit gear now that we didn't have prior to the post-Omen era: Hi performs a lot better now than it did before WSD+10 cape/head/legs, Mummu AGI/crit gear, etc. Still doesn't warrant being your go-to WS on anything other than Kannagi, but it's a lot less of a liability if you need it for a SC or something.


This was the case pre-augments, and still seems to be the case after. Kannagi and Kikoku closed the gap from where we were pre-update though. And for non-capped situations where Heishi already wasn't necessarily the top choice, it fell even further behind (Kannagi in particular, but Kikoku now seams to leapfrog it in some situations).

All according to Kikoku XD

I put my name on the docket representing the honorable Lunatone and attest metsu is in fact bestu.

Anyone packing extra enmity in their utsu midcast sets?
Any tips on improvements other than +1s where avail?
Basically just combining enmity set with midcast
ItemSet 361429

Cant find a Trance Belt because Boshi wont give me his

Cape is just my Macc/mdg20 enmity +10, just using the one I made for debuffnin.enmity casting mode.

I think ideally maybe Enmity 10 MEVA/EVA?

can slap in sapience orb for 2 extra enmity, or staunch if interrupts a concern though i notice theres only 15% haste in that set? could use reforge for an extra 5, but still a bit short there less im missing something

Trux Earring if you have it?

Using Aqreaq bomblet and yeah still need Trux, never got it

Ok, question for the masses. I have all nin rea with exception of mythic. My buddy is telling me that nagi is a great weapon. I'm under the assumption he wants me to waste 30k alex. Is there a scenario where nagi wins over any of the other weapons.

every 45 minutes

I think it can still be pretty good but you're stuck spamming Blade:Hi so you kind of get locked into having to have kannagi offhand or w/e the one from Vini is.
I dont think the augments will work in the offhand either from kannagi.

I'm working on mine right now just for fun but the few people I know with it dont like it much

I think Nagi is actually okay if you're tanking something that you're not meleeing (maybe Halphas or something.) For meleeing, the other RMEA are all much better.

It's too bad Fudo masa aug's dont work in offhand, that enmity + per shadow is sweet