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This is what causes backlash against religion.

There are too many people (like my parents) who believe that it is their duty to make sure our government is completely infused with christian law.

They believe the U.S. will be destroyed if this doesnt happen.

They are not the only ones either.

It was called Religion Class when I was going to school (catholic) growing up. We had Science and History too...

I don't get what the problem is now-a-days, aside from maybe less and less people are choosing to be devoted to a religion.

it's not really a "feeling" illogical thought is void of logic




http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-13-2012/the-vagina-ideologues---sean-hannity-s-holy-sausage-fest

Your assumption is correct.

Evolution and creation "from dust" actually make sense with one another. If we came from single celled organisms we came from something unseen. To a person before technology, there is no concept of single celled, nor microscopic organisms. From dust to dust is a good parody that a person of those times could grasp.

Earth and universe are most definitely older than the numbers written in the Bible. It is also stated very plainly that the concept of time is meaningless to God, and that He is not bound by it. That throws the 6 days of creation, 1 day of rest theory for a loop, too. I think it was written to express that our time on earth is rather insignificant and short comparative to the entirety of existence.

Those tenants, when utilized properly, are a great basis for societal behaviour. They are shared amongst many texts of various religions, I agree.

I'm skipping this question because it is deserving of it's own post.

I think that it is definitely meant to be taken figuratively, and with common sense. We aren't supposed to stone a woman because she commits adultery, etc etc.

So no then?

My only real problem here is that the views in this thread are so biased... it's like religion is seen as something evil and it causes all that is wrong in the world and people who are theists... well they're not really people and what they want doesn't matter... It's like people mirror what they despise and become what they say they despise but with their own agenda...

I want freedom of speech but that religious guy shouldn't get it because well he'll just bring us all down!

Never seems to be about what's actually fair or right but what people see or feel is...

Of course it goes both ways, but there are those that grossly overexaggerate their religious motives being under fire, when ironically those very views are being pushed into bill after bill after bill.

Now, Sai, about that question of no evidence of the Trinity's existence.

Here's why that can never happen.

The Bible clearly states that man was the most precious of all creation, given the gifts and liking of the creating community that is God (Father, Spirit, Son). I say community, because we are to exist as community. That is part of being "created in his image". We all seek accompaniment from others.

I'm getting side tracked. Being as that we were His favorite creation, He gave us complete free will. We are not bound to believe in Him as other creations are. It states that all heavenly creations are sure of His existence (angels, demons, satan, the beast). It also states that all inanimate creations are filled with this burden as well (the stones would cry out...).

With that said, we are at liberty to determine as an individual whether we believe in a higher power or not. We are also free to believe in whichever higher power, and whatever concept of that we wish.

If there were verifiable evidence proving the existence of any of this, you have just invalidated free will. You would still be able to not follow Him, just as you may not follow Nickelback. You may not like their music, but you must admit that there is a band called such and they do play music. If there were evidence of God, the same would be said of Him. You may not choose to follow his advice, or claim Him to be your Lord, but you could not deny that He was in existence and did put us here.

There's your quandary for evidence of God. That is why a decision to follow God cannot be made on a basis of evidence. It cannot be made on a basis of proof one way or the other. To do so would go against the very meaning of our creation. We are the golden child of creation. We are allowed to do whatever it is we wish without much consequence. The angels that have fallen are so envious of this gift they do everything in their power to make you decide that there must be evidence of things for them to be.

Again I digress, but I want to throw this in here as well. The argument for "if there was a God, why does he allow all of this bad to happen on earth" is so severely underestimated. We fight (Christians and non) over whether God is able, or willing to stop all of the evil that is inherent on earth, when we fail to see the big picture. Evil exists, the earth itself still exists because He loves us so much, that He is still giving us time to come to Him. Lots of people on this very site say that there is no way God loves us if he allows us to die eternally. He's purposely withholding His second coming, solely to give us more time to bypass that damnation by hitting our low point and finding Him. The love is there, calling out to those who seek it.

This would be better as a 5hr conversation over beers than here, but oh well.

I used to think EXACTLY as you do. But even such an interpretation as that one leaves too many questions.

Why does the bible use Adam & Eve? Why not state all men grew from dust? Why skip the animal stage? Why does the bible not give the creation story for the other humans alive at the time? Why did the bible only incorporate only old concepts & not newer ones? If the bible had accurately described microorganisms that would be a serious statement. Why would the bible describe the origins of man differently than animals?

You can go on & on. Eventually I kinda just realized that what I was really doing was performing mental gymnastics to try and force my religion into a form that fit with an ever changing view of the universe.

If the bible is the word of god as it claims itself to be, should it really need MY help to make sense? It should be able to stand alone.

Not to mention that many of the OT stories just aren't real. Exodus / Invasion of Cannan being big ones.

Actually, this is exactly what religion is. It really is evil and it really is what is causing most (though not all) of the wrong in the world. And this is why athiests and other non-religous people have such a huge problem with those that promote religion.

Many wars have been and are still fought based on religious differences. Religious people have hampered scientific progress for thousands of years. While there are certainly good examples of religious people doing good things for this world, the amount of harm, imo, far outweighs the good that's been done.

Couldn't you say the same about pretty much anything? People the other day flipped out about Netflix supporting some new bill when they weren't at all... it's not something you can peg on the religious alone but rather humanity in general..

I'll have to disagree with you on that one...

Ah, but now you're digging into a deeper problem Flavin. Are fair, right, wrong, good, evil or perfection measured objectively or subjectively?

If it is measured objectively, there are true points at which each side cross and one side is seeing the short end of the stick of "fair".

If it is measured subjectively (how the vast majority of people measure these things whether they'd like to admit it or not), then each side is getting the short end of the stick, respectively. There is no way to ever have two opposing opinions be completely satisfied when they utilize subjective measuring tools.

The only negative stigma religion has in my opinion are those guilty of association and bastardizing a very broad and personal concept into an arbitrary and world reforming movement.

It's unfortunate how religion is merely a legitimate scapegoat to justify the actions of what most of us would consider evil.

If you'd ever like to discuss it over skype or a phone conversation, I'd love to share and get your ideas on it. You can even have a beer, I'll stick with margaritas ^^

I have to disagree here. We are given the illusion of free will. But this choice we are given -- the choice to either be slaves to your God or to burn in hell for all eternity-- is really not much of a choice, is it? That's not free will at all. Serve me or die. Be enslaved to me or burn. Cake or death.

@Daemun's last super long post.

Are you able to see the self reinforcing circular logic that you just posted?

If god were a real thing as the bible describes, then limiting such a being with such arbitrary constraints makes no sense at all.

I love you so much for pointing the above out ^

Also the difference here is Netflix leaves a money trail that can be followed and documented. Religious leaders just make absolute *** out of themselves on a regular basis under the media limelight.

Free will has nothing to do with consequences... What you're saying doesn't really apply to free will... Think of it this way. I'm free to choose to go and attempt to rob that bank and hey I might even be successful but I still run the risk of going to prison... In our lives we will always face consequences but that doesn't mean we're not free to do whatever we want to... your line of thinking just states you want everything for nothing... let me do whatever I want and not feel any certain way about it but let me be rewarded as well...

We all have free will but there are many consequences we face when choosing to excercise it no matter where we are...

It's fine to disagree, I wouldn't expect someone who has faith to see it any other way. But this is the reason why atheists get so worked up when religion interferes with their lives. I would think those with faith could feel the same way about atheists. The difference is that while I can come up with a lot of examples that show the harm religion has done, it's going to be a LOT harder (if not impossible) to show harm done by an atheist!

To be more specific here, you have to define harm. Wiki gives this paragraph, which seems about right:

I would argue that religion meets the criteria of harm, while lack of one does not.

Might have to take you up on the skype thing. I do enjoy a good conversation with a more level headed person on a meaty subject.

When can Sparth and I start talking about the unicorns and Egyptian gods and goddesses?

I'm not a slave at all Liela. True freedom comes when you come to realize this world means nothing. When that is FULLY realized, it is quite easy to serve the benefit of others, and not to fill as though you are missing out on some personal gain. To know I am not measured by what I have or gain here, to know that My job, my video games, my truck have truly 0 value is actually relieving. We all die, and everything here passes. I don't feel in any way enslaved to try to make this place a close representation of what I believe will one day be complete.

You said that people overreact to claims that religion is being persecuted even though its not there... I was trying to make a point that humanity in general is like that and used netflix as an example because people flipped ***about that before they even knew what was really going on... they actually got the story wrong too...

Who said I have faith? My problem is that people like you make it seem like the world is so one sided against them and ignore the possibility that anyone else might have a valid complaint against them.

Edit: your way only way viewpoint.

While that's true in reality, in religion, it gives very conditional and specific instruction on what can and cannot be done, to the point where it becomes downright contrary to the basis of humans having free will in light of being either a follower of God or one that defies him and thus will burn in Hell for eternity. There's virtually no middle ground other than the narrow margin of purgatory.

Creating life to look forward to death seems to be counter-intuitive if you ask me.

Seemed to work fine for this guy.