Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »
soul
This is now a thread about religion.
Edit: Awesome start to a new page.
Another Pro Choice Vs Pro Life Thread
Another pro choice vs pro life thread
This is now a thread about religion.
Edit: Awesome start to a new page.
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Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »
Odin.Liela said: »
At what point do you think a clump of cells is a living, conscious human being? Dead skin cells flake off onto everything around you all the time. That's not murder. Hair and nails were once living cells. Cutting them off is not murder. Scrubbing your legs with exfoliating body scrub on a loofah is the act of sloughing off dead skin cells by the hundreds. That is not murder. An egg and a sperm are simply two cells. At what point, would you say, do those cells become conscious? Do you think Plan B, which prevents these cells from implanting on the mother's uterus, is murder?
And under what circumstances (if any) do you think abortion is acceptable? Is it acceptable after rape or incest? Is it acceptable if giving birth will risk the mother's life?
Do you think if a mother will neglect, abuse, or mistreat her child, the child would have been better off aborted?
And at what point does the fetus' rights overpower the mother's rights?
I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind. I just think you should take all these things into consideration when making your choice to be pro-life.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- the thought of abortion makes me uncomfortable and uneasy. But there are circumstances when I really think abortion is the better option. That's why I'm pro-choice.
And under what circumstances (if any) do you think abortion is acceptable? Is it acceptable after rape or incest? Is it acceptable if giving birth will risk the mother's life?
Do you think if a mother will neglect, abuse, or mistreat her child, the child would have been better off aborted?
And at what point does the fetus' rights overpower the mother's rights?
I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind. I just think you should take all these things into consideration when making your choice to be pro-life.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- the thought of abortion makes me uncomfortable and uneasy. But there are circumstances when I really think abortion is the better option. That's why I'm pro-choice.
How about the fact that some women, like for example me and Leila, would rather postpone pregnancies until we could give our child/ren a fulfilling life? Indulge them not just materialistically, but with life experiences, knowledge, financial stability, and love. It's not a matter of "convenience" by any means! It's a matter of responsibility and maturity!
I said it earlier, if I was stupid enough to get knocked up when I was seventeen or in college, I would be ashamed of myself that I would not be able to provide everything that my parents bestowed to me and my brother and then some.
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Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »
INORITE? How dare people not be allowed to have the consequences of their actions be swept away without any "bad feelings"?! Next thing you know you'll gain weight from overeating or have to pay credit card bills for spending too much!
Give me a break. You don't show a fat people the fat after a liposuction, the heart patient clogged arteries or sit people down and read off the consequences of cosmetic surgery in a "you could lose feeling your face forever" way that scares the person off so what makes abortions so special?
You should be told the risks, asked if you're sure and once the person has made their decision the hospital should you know... honor their wishes.
The sole reason they give you the ultrasound though is to guilt you into having the kid which is an attempt to override a decision a woman has come to on her own. Because abortions aren't illegal as some people would like it becomes a game of talking people out of it by pulling on heartstrings.
Emotions don't put food in a babies mouth, doesn't erase cases of rape or ready an immature couple for the rigors of raising offspring but like I said before most pro-lifers don't care about this, it's just about births.
Quote:
There's a novel solution that I like to call "adoption".
We went over the flaws of adoption some pages ago, how about responding to this points with your own?
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Someone say religion?
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
Odin.Liela said: »
And at what point does the fetus' rights overpower the mother's rights?
Basicly... at the point when the mother desided to murder it'
you cannot murder something that is not a human being.
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »
Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
Because people have abortions due to convenience.. Right.
Also, "life" isn't the debate. Personhood is. The cells are "alive" from before the sperm ever meets with the egg. The question is at what point of development do we determine protection rights. There is no soul, there is no fine line. It's just a subjective determination based on physical and cognitive development. Stop being dumb.
Also, "life" isn't the debate. Personhood is. The cells are "alive" from before the sperm ever meets with the egg. The question is at what point of development do we determine protection rights. There is no soul, there is no fine line. It's just a subjective determination based on physical and cognitive development. Stop being dumb.
for somebody speaking of not being qualified to say things you sure like to pull numbers out of your ***.
as for a "soul" there's no evidence for such a thing so it should be dismissed.
I don't know where you come to the conclusions of the bold.
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Someone say religion?
LOL!
The reason this topic will never be settled, is because everyone is trying to side step the laws already in place.
Murder is illegal.
Age does not matter, and location, jurisdiction aside, does not matter.
Its illegal.
We all know the result of a pregnancy is a life form. If you destroyed it after it was born, everyone would agree that its murder.
So the real question becomes: when is it, that whats inside their, is officially alive?
The answer to that question will be the answer to whether or not its legal or illegal already.
Trying to create a new 'abortion law' (despite which way the law would go) is mearly a way to side step laws already in place.
---
Having said all that, I personally feel that its alive from conception.
Reason being: last i heard, sperm are officially recognized as alive. Therefor your going from sperm-fetus-baby. If the first and last are both alive, its logical to conclude the middle one is to. Its hard to believe that it would go alive-dead-alive. It mearly changes form. (kinda like a Caterpillar changing into a butterfly. its not dead when its inside the cocoon)
Murder is illegal.
Age does not matter, and location, jurisdiction aside, does not matter.
Its illegal.
We all know the result of a pregnancy is a life form. If you destroyed it after it was born, everyone would agree that its murder.
So the real question becomes: when is it, that whats inside their, is officially alive?
The answer to that question will be the answer to whether or not its legal or illegal already.
Trying to create a new 'abortion law' (despite which way the law would go) is mearly a way to side step laws already in place.
---
Having said all that, I personally feel that its alive from conception.
Reason being: last i heard, sperm are officially recognized as alive. Therefor your going from sperm-fetus-baby. If the first and last are both alive, its logical to conclude the middle one is to. Its hard to believe that it would go alive-dead-alive. It mearly changes form. (kinda like a Caterpillar changing into a butterfly. its not dead when its inside the cocoon)
These pro-life people sure are righteous. By their standards we should let cancerous tumors and bacterial infection grow. Wouldn't want to destroy life, ya know.
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
sperm are officially recognized as alive.
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
These pro-life people sure are righteous. By their standards we should let cancerous tumors and bacterial infection grow. Wouldn't want to destroy life, ya know.
This is the exact thing that went through my mind...
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Awww...I'm sad now. I can't find anything in English on Youtube for the episode when Bart sells his soul. :(
Odin.Godofgods said: »
The reason this topic will never be settled, is because everyone is trying to side step the laws already in place.
Murder is illegal.
Age does not matter, and location, jurisdiction aside, does not matter.
Its illegal.
We all know the result of a pregnancy is a life form. If you destroyed it after it was born, everyone would agree that its murder.
So the real question becomes: when is it, that whats inside their, is officially alive?
The answer to that question will be the answer to whether or not its legal or illegal already.
Trying to create a new 'abortion law' (despite which way the law would go) is mearly a way to side step laws already in place.
---
Having said all that, I personally feel that its alive from conception.
Reason being: last i heard, sperm are officially recognized as alive. Therefor your going from sperm-fetus-baby. If the first and last are both alive, its logical to conclude the middle one is to. Its hard to believe that it would go alive-dead-alive. It mearly changes form. (kinda like a Caterpillar changing into a butterfly. its not dead when its inside the cocoon)
Murder is illegal.
Age does not matter, and location, jurisdiction aside, does not matter.
Its illegal.
We all know the result of a pregnancy is a life form. If you destroyed it after it was born, everyone would agree that its murder.
So the real question becomes: when is it, that whats inside their, is officially alive?
The answer to that question will be the answer to whether or not its legal or illegal already.
Trying to create a new 'abortion law' (despite which way the law would go) is mearly a way to side step laws already in place.
---
Having said all that, I personally feel that its alive from conception.
Reason being: last i heard, sperm are officially recognized as alive. Therefor your going from sperm-fetus-baby. If the first and last are both alive, its logical to conclude the middle one is to. Its hard to believe that it would go alive-dead-alive. It mearly changes form. (kinda like a Caterpillar changing into a butterfly. its not dead when its inside the cocoon)
whether or not it's alive isn't the question, whether or not it's a human being with rights is the question: the answer is no ergo it cannot be murder.
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
Reason being: last i heard, sperm are officially recognized as alive. Therefor your going from sperm-fetus-baby. If the first and last are both alive, its logical to conclude the middle one is to. Its hard to believe that it would go alive-dead-alive. It mearly changes form. (kinda like a Caterpillar changing into a butterfly. its not dead when its inside the cocoon)
Not this again.
So should masturbation be considered first-degree murder? All those cells have the potential to become babies yet when someone faps those cells are deprived the right to become babies.
Is a teen who has a wet dream really a subconscious murderer?
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What's even more crazy about sperm, is that they will die off and be replaced by new ones if not released. So either way you're killing them.
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Odin.Godofgods said: »
Reason being: last i heard, sperm are officially recognized as alive. Therefor your going from sperm-fetus-baby. If the first and last are both alive, its logical to conclude the middle one is to. Its hard to believe that it would go alive-dead-alive. It mearly changes form. (kinda like a Caterpillar changing into a butterfly. its not dead when its inside the cocoon)
Not this again.
So should masturbation be considered first-degree murder? All those cells have the potential to become babies yet when someone faps those cells are deprived the right to become babies.
Is a teen who has a wet dream really a subconscious murderer?
Should being an egg doner be considered murder? There's no guarantee that any of them will be fertilized.
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Women are all murderers if eggs count as potential life.
I knew it. I knew it.
I knew it. I knew it.
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Women are all murderers if eggs count as potential life.
I knew it.
I knew it.
True. Damn my infanticide that has been going on since I was thirteen!
What pro-lifers fail to recognize is that when you have choice it means you can keep your beliefs, follow them and leave others alone.
Want to shoot out every baby sent down the conveyor? More power to you.
Want to shoot out every baby sent down the conveyor? More power to you.
Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
True. Damn my infanticide that has been going on since I was thirteen!
Think of all the children you should have had. Not one egg must be wasted and since women come with around ~1.5 million eggs (according to google) that's a lot of diapers to clean up.
Goodluck and Godspeed~!
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What is considered to be alive must fulfill all seven of the Living Processes:
Moves, reproduction, sensitivity (knowledge of your surroundings), grows, respiration, excretion, nutrition (feed).
Sperm, and eggs for that matter, are not alive.
Moves, reproduction, sensitivity (knowledge of your surroundings), grows, respiration, excretion, nutrition (feed).
Sperm, and eggs for that matter, are not alive.
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
True. Damn my infanticide that has been going on since I was thirteen!
Think of all the children you should have had. Not one egg must be wasted and since women come with around ~1.5 million eggs (according to google) that's a lot of diapers to clean up.
Goodluck and Godspeed~!
Oh GOD! I just did the math. With gestation time plus six weeks I could have had fifteen to sixteen kids in the past thirteen years and plus or minus "X" months since ovulation started! *** THAT!
EDIT: Leila's would be fourteen to fifteen, assuming it was the same age, and Yomi's would be sixteen to seventeen. Bleh!
Carbuncle.Ianpyst said: »
What is considered to be alive must fulfill all seven of the Living Processes: Moves, reproduction, sensitivity (knowledge of your surroundings), grows, respiration, excretion, nutrition (feed). Sperm, and eggs for that matter, are not alive.
Babies and young children arnt capable of reproducing either. Are they not alive? Or does that mean i can go around ending the existence of all kids whoms bodies haven't started to sexual mature with no repercussion, since their not alive by your standards...
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
We went over the flaws of adoption some pages ago, how about responding to this points with your own?
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: »
for somebody speaking of not being qualified to say things you sure like to pull numbers out of your ***.
as for a "soul" there's no evidence for such a thing so it should be dismissed.
I don't know where you come to the conclusions of the bold.
And there is PLENTY of evidence for a soul. Rock-solid proof that meet's your pedestrian criteria? Probably not. But then you don't matter anyway. Bold proclamations from the person to whom I responded apparently flew by your radar undetected, so what faith would I have in your intellectual requirements for deeper meaning? It'd be like granting a PhD to a kindergartener who failed finger-painting.
Bringing religion into discussions of this nature is inevitable but is inherently flawed. Religion is designed to brainwash anyone into believing what that religion wants you to believe.
From the minds of priests, clerics, pastors, etc:
Abortion is a sin, thus worshipers will condemn it.
Being gay is a sin, thus worshipers will condemn it.
A Woman showing her hair is a sin, thus worshipers will condemn it.
See where I am going at with this? This is a bold statement and I am sure I will be trolled but its what I believe: If religion didn't exist there wouldn't be much guiding these ideas of bigotry or even strip people of their free will. The world would be much better off.
From the minds of priests, clerics, pastors, etc:
Abortion is a sin, thus worshipers will condemn it.
Being gay is a sin, thus worshipers will condemn it.
A Woman showing her hair is a sin, thus worshipers will condemn it.
See where I am going at with this? This is a bold statement and I am sure I will be trolled but its what I believe: If religion didn't exist there wouldn't be much guiding these ideas of bigotry or even strip people of their free will. The world would be much better off.
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Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: »
for somebody speaking of not being qualified to say things you sure like to pull numbers out of your ***.
as for a "soul" there's no evidence for such a thing so it should be dismissed.
I don't know where you come to the conclusions of the bold.
And there is PLENTY of evidence for a soul. Rock-solid proof that meet's your pedestrian criteria? Probably not. But then you don't matter anyway. Bold proclamations from the person to whom I responded apparently flew by your radar undetected, so what faith would I have in your intellectual requirements for deeper meaning? It'd be like granting a PhD to a kindergartener who failed finger-painting.
no but it makes you look like a fool.
no there is no evidence for a soul, none.
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Bahamut.Jetackuu said: »
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: »
for somebody speaking of not being qualified to say things you sure like to pull numbers out of your ***. as for a "soul" there's no evidence for such a thing so it should be dismissed. I don't know where you come to the conclusions of the bold.
Agreed. Show me where there is concrete scientic proof that there is a recording for a soul and I will yield. It is an imposibility.
I mean, if you just wanted to just be offensive and arrogant you got that point across pretty nicely.
Eugene said: »
I mean, if you just wanted to just be offensive and arrogant you got that point across pretty nicely.
those are usually my specialties, although I don't do them intentionally...
I was enjoying this debate, key word being was.
Carbuncle.Ianpyst said: »
What is considered to be alive must fulfill all seven of the Living Processes:
Moves, reproduction, sensitivity (knowledge of your surroundings), grows, respiration, excretion, nutrition (feed).
Sperm, and eggs for that matter, are not alive.
Moves, reproduction, sensitivity (knowledge of your surroundings), grows, respiration, excretion, nutrition (feed).
Sperm, and eggs for that matter, are not alive.
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