Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
Except for the simple fact that my food doesn't seek to alienate and oppress groups of people.
Liar! It's oppressing me right now! Help! Help! (skip to 2:00)
How Christians Can Make The World A Better Place
How Christians can Make the World a Better Place
Liar! It's oppressing me right now! Help! Help! (skip to 2:00)
Odin.Daemun said: »
Asura.Vrytreya said: »
Those are all good; However, when non-religious ask you guys not to follow the "what is punishable", how much of holy books guidelines you are willing to give up?
Because I don't particularly agree with the words or actions of your choice there.
To the OP.
I understand where you are coming from with your WOT, since I was raised to believe similar things.
What you are asking your fellow believers to do sounds great in theory, but there are some inherent flaws that you can't get around.
1. Its not realistic. Humans simply do not, and will not operate in the way you described for long periods of time. Sure you can mind a handful of examples that may have, but for the extreme majority it simply isnt possible.
By asking its members to strive for the impossible your religion is accomplishing two things, it makes you feel guilty for failing to live up > which makes you feel you need more religion to correct your faults > which then makes you set even higher goals that you cant meet. Its a n entrapping cycle that keeps you in their loop.
The second accomplishment is that when you proclaim these lofty goals to non believers and inevitably fail to live up to them, non believers tend to call you out on it which creates a sense of persecution > which pushes you back towards your religion. Again, a cycle of entrapment.
2. The other inherent flaw in your statement is that it is based on religious ideas and not basic human principles. Even if you started out just following the rules that you list, it inevitably leads to the parts of your religion that are harmful. This is inescapable. When you use religion as your basis for good, the bad always will sneak in with it, and eventually dominate it. History shows this is always the case.
Again OP, I know you feel that you are trying to do a good thing. But the reality is that even when you try your best to do good, when you do it in the name of religion it will always end badly in the long run.
I understand where you are coming from with your WOT, since I was raised to believe similar things.
What you are asking your fellow believers to do sounds great in theory, but there are some inherent flaws that you can't get around.
1. Its not realistic. Humans simply do not, and will not operate in the way you described for long periods of time. Sure you can mind a handful of examples that may have, but for the extreme majority it simply isnt possible.
By asking its members to strive for the impossible your religion is accomplishing two things, it makes you feel guilty for failing to live up > which makes you feel you need more religion to correct your faults > which then makes you set even higher goals that you cant meet. Its a n entrapping cycle that keeps you in their loop.
The second accomplishment is that when you proclaim these lofty goals to non believers and inevitably fail to live up to them, non believers tend to call you out on it which creates a sense of persecution > which pushes you back towards your religion. Again, a cycle of entrapment.
2. The other inherent flaw in your statement is that it is based on religious ideas and not basic human principles. Even if you started out just following the rules that you list, it inevitably leads to the parts of your religion that are harmful. This is inescapable. When you use religion as your basis for good, the bad always will sneak in with it, and eventually dominate it. History shows this is always the case.
Again OP, I know you feel that you are trying to do a good thing. But the reality is that even when you try your best to do good, when you do it in the name of religion it will always end badly in the long run.
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Odin.Daemun said: »
Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
The Christian faith is rubbish by any modern standard of decency.
I respect your opinion of the matter.
Cerberus.Kaht said: »
It's just another case of cherry picking the passages you like, and ignoring the ones you don't like. This describes 99% of christians.
In telling them to follow those passages it presents the fundamental contradiction in following the Bible - you can't actually adhere to it in its entirety, and you definitely can't adhere to parts of it while abiding by any modern standard of morality.
Which is why I stated that your argument was flawed. It would be far more sensible to tell people to be decent without the guise of Christianity.
[+]
Caitsith.Sai said: »
To the OP.
I understand where you are coming from with your WOT, since I was raised to believe similar things.
What you are asking your fellow believers to do sounds great in theory, but there are some inherent flaws that you can't get around.
1. Its not realistic. Humans simply do not, and will not operate in the way you described for long periods of time. Sure you can mind a handful of examples that may have, but for the extreme majority it simply isnt possible.
By asking its members to strive for the impossible your religion is accomplishing two things, it makes you feel guilty for failing to live up > which makes you feel you need more religion to correct your faults > which then makes you set even higher goals that you cant meet. Its a n entrapping cycle that keeps you in their loop.
The second accomplishment is that when you proclaim these lofty goals to non believers and inevitably fail to live up to them, non believers tend to call you out on it which creates a sense of persecution > which pushes you back towards your religion. Again, a cycle of entrapment.
2. The other inherent flaw in your statement is that it is based on religious ideas and not basic human principles. Even if you started out just following the rules that you list, it inevitably leads to the parts of your religion that are harmful. This is inescapable. When you use religion as your basis for good, the bad always will sneak in with it, and eventually dominate it. History shows this is always the case.
Again OP, I know you feel that you are trying to do a good thing. But the reality is that even when you try your best to do good, when you do it in the name of religion it will always end badly in the long run.
I understand where you are coming from with your WOT, since I was raised to believe similar things.
What you are asking your fellow believers to do sounds great in theory, but there are some inherent flaws that you can't get around.
1. Its not realistic. Humans simply do not, and will not operate in the way you described for long periods of time. Sure you can mind a handful of examples that may have, but for the extreme majority it simply isnt possible.
By asking its members to strive for the impossible your religion is accomplishing two things, it makes you feel guilty for failing to live up > which makes you feel you need more religion to correct your faults > which then makes you set even higher goals that you cant meet. Its a n entrapping cycle that keeps you in their loop.
The second accomplishment is that when you proclaim these lofty goals to non believers and inevitably fail to live up to them, non believers tend to call you out on it which creates a sense of persecution > which pushes you back towards your religion. Again, a cycle of entrapment.
2. The other inherent flaw in your statement is that it is based on religious ideas and not basic human principles. Even if you started out just following the rules that you list, it inevitably leads to the parts of your religion that are harmful. This is inescapable. When you use religion as your basis for good, the bad always will sneak in with it, and eventually dominate it. History shows this is always the case.
Again OP, I know you feel that you are trying to do a good thing. But the reality is that even when you try your best to do good, when you do it in the name of religion it will always end badly in the long run.
I have been trying to live by this for more than a year now. I have grown daily doing so. I hope to continue to do so for the rest of my life. I accept that I will fail this from time to time. My goal, is to fail at it less and less often as I progress through my life, and help as many people through my love as I can along the way. In doing so, my life will be one of joy and fulfilment.
Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
Odin.Daemun said: »
Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
The Christian faith is rubbish by any modern standard of decency.
I respect your opinion of the matter.
Cerberus.Kaht said: »
It's just another case of cherry picking the passages you like, and ignoring the ones you don't like. This describes 99% of christians.
In telling them to follow those passages it presents the fundamental contradiction in following the Bible - you can't actually adhere to it in its entirety, and you definitely can't adhere to parts of it while abiding by any modern standard of morality.
Which is why I stated that your argument was flawed. It would be far more sensible to tell people to be decent without the guise of Christianity.
Precisely, there are nice people out there who do these things who have never read the bible and are not Christians. To hijack some common sense and decency then claim that it's the Christian way is a cheap trick to improve your religious image.
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Asura.Vrytreya said: »
Odin.Daemun said: »
Asura.Vrytreya said: »
Those are all good; However, when non-religious ask you guys not to follow the "what is punishable", how much of holy books guidelines you are willing to give up?
Because I don't particularly agree with the words or actions of your choice there.
[+]
Ramuh.Sagittario said: »
Precisely, there are nice people out there who do these things who have never read the bible and are not Christians. To hijack some common sense and decency then claim that it's the Christian way is a cheap trick to improve your religious image.
Odin.Daemun said: »
I agree it doesn't rely on religion. I chose them because they are the self proclaimed "holy" ones. If they are going to call themselves that, they best be living it. I also only called upon religious because I am one, and feel I have the right to do so.
Not to improve my religious image at all. It was a challenge to those who align themselves with the religious image of Christianity.
Odin.Daemun said: »
Phoenix.Esvedium said: »
Don't forget to execute everyone at red lobster, too.
To be kosher anything that comes from the waters must have fins and scales. Lobsters lack the scales.
But eating lobsters and oysters is not an abomination. Serving a kid in its mother's milk or wearing mixed fibers is.
Full disclosure: in my extended family almost all the men of my grandfather's generation had kosher houses and they all loved to eat oysters. Not in their own houses of course.
Garuda.Chanti said: »
Odin.Daemun said: »
Phoenix.Esvedium said: »
Don't forget to execute everyone at red lobster, too.
To be kosher anything that comes from the waters must have fins and scales. Lobsters lack the scales.
But eating lobsters and oysters is not an abomination. Serving a kid in its mother's milk or wearing mixed fibers is.
Full disclosure: in my extended family almost all the men of my grandfather's generation had kosher houses and they all loved to eat oysters. Not in their own houses of course.
I take ICPs version on that, along with a verse from the Bible.
Quote:
Romans 14:2-4-One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
ICP-
Quote:
I never question the Book; but let's say I lived by the Book. If I never ate meat on Tuesdays, how much bigger would my wings look?
Back OT. I think if a person feels like it is against God's teaching to eat certain things, by all means, stay away from said things. If a person feels edible things are put on this earth for our consumption, don't stay away from them just because other's have a differing view. My only exception to this would be if my actions/words were doing a disservice of God to someone I was around. In that instance, refrain from whatever it is that person has in their mind isn't acceptable by God when in their presence.
Quoting ICP instantly makes you lose any creditability.
Religion isn't meant to be subjective, you know. An omniscient, omnipotent being doesn't really need interpretation of a set of laws, does he?
Stop presenting morality under a guise of religion, it does nobody any good.
Stop presenting morality under a guise of religion, it does nobody any good.
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Quoting ICP instantly makes you lose any creditability.
EDIT: NO U
I saw some chick with a "Jugette" bumbersticker driving around the other day, I about pissed myself laughing
[+]
Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
Religion isn't meant to be subjective, you know. An omniscient, omnipotent being doesn't really need interpretation of a set of laws, does he?
Stop presenting morality under a guise of religion, it does nobody any good.
Stop presenting morality under a guise of religion, it does nobody any good.
I'm sorry that you are unable to reconcile with the fact that your religion dictates an awful moral code and that you wish to avoid that by suggesting people follow the good points - ones that are much more sensible to adhere to without the ridiculous pretense of religion.
Siren.Mosin said: »
I saw some chick with a "Jugette" bumbersticker driving around the other day, I about pissed myself laughing
What really cracked me up, was the kids in HS that wore an ICP shirt one day, then an APC shirt the next. Black lipstick and purple hair. Thinking they were supporting two of the same thing. APC, an avid atheist, attempting to convert Christians with blatant messages. ICP avid Christians attempting to convert atheists with subliminal messages.
Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
I'm sorry that you are unable to reconcile with the fact that your religion dictates an awful moral code and that you wish to avoid that by suggesting people follow the good points - ones that are much more sensible to adhere to without the ridiculous pretense of religion.
you can be an atheist without shitting on organized religion, FYI
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Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
I'm sorry that you are unable to reconcile with the fact that your religion dictates an awful moral code and that you wish to avoid that by suggesting people follow the good points - ones that are much more sensible to adhere to without the ridiculous pretense of religion.
Odin.Daemun said: »
I know fully it is unattainable. The objective is to strive to do so as often as possible. We're human. We make mistakes. We act selfishly. That is given. No one should be satisfied with themselves at any given point, however. We should always be trying to become better than we currently are. The never ending pursuit of perfection, and the hope that our next life will be the fruits of those labors is the driving force behind my faith.
See, this kinda sounds nice, and I suspect that you have been taught this most of your life? But, have you really thought about this? "No one should be satisfied with themselves." really? To me this is a horrible way to think. To think that no matter what, your never good enough, you never will be good enough and you will die not good enough. I dont want to be perfect, I dont want to try to be perfect (subjective term anyway), I want to be me, I want my faults, they are apart of who I am.
Why should people want to be part of a group that tells its members that they should spend their whole lives trying to not be a failure, but in the end you will die a failure. Thats nothing but a way to control people IMO.
Quote:
I have been trying to live by this for more than a year now. I have grown daily doing so. I hope to continue to do so for the rest of my life. I accept that I will fail this from time to time. My goal, is to fail at it less and less often as I progress through my life, and help as many people through my love as I can along the way. In doing so, my life will be one of joy and fulfilment.
Guess what, you can love and help your fellow man without doing so in an attempt to be less of a failure. How about "I'm just going to be me, the good and bad, and I'll love who I am no matter what, and as I progress through my life I'll help and love as many people as I can along the way."
Sure doesnt seem like a failure to me if thats your goal.
Your religion is the people behind it.
Also, not trying to pick a fight OP, just my opinion and view on things. I used to be you, so Im not hating and I understand where you come from.
Caitsith.Sai said: »
Odin.Daemun said: »
I know fully it is unattainable. The objective is to strive to do so as often as possible. We're human. We make mistakes. We act selfishly. That is given. No one should be satisfied with themselves at any given point, however. We should always be trying to become better than we currently are. The never ending pursuit of perfection, and the hope that our next life will be the fruits of those labors is the driving force behind my faith.
See, this kinda sounds nice, and I suspect that you have been taught this most of your life? But, have you really thought about this? "No one should be satisfied with themselves." really? To me this is a horrible way to think. To think that no matter what, your never good enough, you never will be good enough and you will die not good enough. I dont want to be perfect, I dont want to try to be perfect (subjective term anyway), I want to be me, I want my faults, they are apart of who I am.
Why should people want to be part of a group that tells its members that they should spend their whole lives trying to not be a failure, but in the end you will die a failure. Thats nothing but a way to control people IMO.
Quote:
I have been trying to live by this for more than a year now. I have grown daily doing so. I hope to continue to do so for the rest of my life. I accept that I will fail this from time to time. My goal, is to fail at it less and less often as I progress through my life, and help as many people through my love as I can along the way. In doing so, my life will be one of joy and fulfilment.
Guess what, you can love and help your fellow man without doing so in an attempt to be less of a failure. How about "I'm just going to be me, the good and bad, and I'll love who I am no matter what, and as I progress through my life I'll help and love as many people as I can along the way."
Sure doesnt seem like a failure to me if thats your goal.
I agree with you, everyone should love themselves, and not be ashamed of themselves. I wasn't trying to say that at all. Merely, we should never be complacent with where we stand, and always look for ways to improve what is already a wonderful person.
Siren.Mosin said: »
you can be an atheist without shitting on organized religion, FYI
The question is: For how long? We live in a unique point in history where non-belief is able to propagate and grow alongside organized religion but that was most certainly not the case if/when the religious loons get a hold of history's wheel.
To call yourself atheist even in this age of 'acceptance' is still a battle and a tough one at that. You won't be burning at the stake while some emissary of God reads scripture but there are forces out there who'd enjoy the notion of grinding the non-belief crowd back into a voiceless mass hiding to get by.
That's why when people say "well, just keep your atheism to yourself" I can't help but look at them and see the historical ignorance oozing from their pores. If theists want to prevent a repeat of the past they'll need to beat back their radical forces and truly put 'love thy neighbor' to the test.
[+]
Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
Your religion is the people behind it.
What is so wrong with wanting to help others out of no self fulfilling intention and calling akin people to do the same?
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Siren.Mosin said: »
you can be an atheist without shitting on organized religion, FYI
The question is: For how long? We live in a unique point in history where non-belief is able to propagate and grow alongside organized religion but that was most certainly not the case if/when the religious loons get a hold of history's wheel.
To call yourself atheist even in this age of 'acceptance' is still a battle and a tough one at that. You won't be burning at the stake while some emissary of God reads scripture but there are forces out there who'd enjoy the notion of grinding the non-belief crowd back into a voiceless mass hiding to get by.
That's why when people say "well, just keep your atheism to yourself" I can't help but look at them and see the historical ignorance oozing from their pores. If theists want to prevent a repeat of the past they'll need to beat back their radical forces and truly put 'love thy neighbor' to the test.
If Atheists weren't throwing words back and forth with Christians both would probably be more accepted. Both groups seem intolerant, and one not more than the other.
[+]
Mohandas Gandhi said it best IMO.
Gandhi said:
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
[+]
simply put people get lost in the politics of religion and lose sight or just never simply see it in first place. Most religions actually share the same core message that of treating each other good and with kindness and fairness and compassion. Unfortunately for most that message has been covered with the politics people have added ontop in search of own personal power and desires and hate.
Sylph.Systematicchaos said: »
If Atheists weren't throwing words back and forth with Christians both would probably be more accepted. Both groups seem intolerant, and one not more than the other.
Honestly, I'm more thankful that we progressed enough as a society that instead of firebombs, glass bottles, and the likes of civil conflicts we saw just 30-60 years ago that we're at a point where we can just *** each other out.
Slow, steady change is the best kind ;P
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