PLD Relic/mythic/emp Discussion

Assuming the +accuracy doesn't affect your hit rate (yeah good luck capping acc in a turtle set), lack of factoring DMG increments from +attack/skill, WS frequency ignored, xHit required to 100TP ignored, DA ignored, a presumptuous guess as to what effect that +shield gear will have, no enemy statistics or levels defined. Need I go on?

All you did was measure one Haste value vs the other, with and without spell Haste. Made what appears to be a pot shot guess at what sort of effect +shield gear actually has, and I guess you gave both sets capped Hit rate (which is unlikely).

There's a ton of ***you didn't "account" for. Secondly, no one said you need a TP set. Making an anecdotal statement like "I keep hate no problemo in a turtle set!" is false, with the one golden exception of playing with horrible DDs.

Why do you keep bringing up real tanking gear, the only pieces that you can even question in this topic of "haste gear vs other" would be creed feet+2 vs gallant +1 and flume belt vs a haste belt, thats it. You should be wearing creed hands/legs which both offer haste aswell as defensive stats, head I already mentioned what you can wear(haste/pdt).

9~10 haste, 7~12enmity, 0-5stp/0-6attack/0-6acc(depend on what belt you have availble) vs 4pdt 12 shield skill(which is probably ~3%block rate). Having an ochain basically makes creed feet a no brainer, and only under dire situations would you swap into within an inch of your life set.

Theres 2 types of paladins youll run into, the ones that strive to use every thing accessible to them to do whats required of their position as a tank and change/adapt to their situation, these plds are Creed plds, haste/acc/att is their way, but they know to be on a defensive note when the situation calls for it.

Then theres the koenig paladins, theyre your plds that stay defensive always, putting in damage is not their calling call, theyre there to reduce damage they take and nothing more, long as they are doing that and the mob is -claimed- to be locked onto them they are content. Theres no conforming/change/adaption of this group.

Which pld are you?(general question to anyone not direct)


Also SE gave pld an A+ rating in sword, given us atonement(at the time it was great), now Almace, even burtang with its defensive stat has an offensive edge to it(2-3OA), and for ppl that can afford it, excalibur along with sets like creed(full set shouldnt be mained) all offer offense. Theyve stated they dont want to break pld with too much of a offensive buff, but atleast they have percieved that pld should be providing some DD capabilities, even if limited.

If you dont think pld should provide any DD, dont even wield a sword and just use a cure pot club.

You mean the earth staff, right?

Edit: Oh wait. My bad. No shield with the earth staff.

Here's your tanking set:

Or better yet, the new cure sword, but that might be too much damage for a pld.

CE accumulation set 1:
Haste 25%, Hitrate 95%, HP 1550

Dmg per swing: 50
WS dmg: 600
Swings per min: 21 (after hitrate check 19 hits, with 14 normal dmg and 5 ODD)

Dmg dealt including WS: 1800
CE gain: 2470.5

Same set with haste (spell):
Dmg per swing: 50
WS dmg: 600
Swings per min: 26 (after hitrate check 24 hits, with 17 normal dmg and 7 ODD)

Dmg dealt including WS: 2150
CE gain: 2950.875

CE accumulation set 2:
Haste 13%, Hitrate 94%, HP 1550

Dmg per swing: 50
WS dmg: 600
Swings per min: 18 (after hitrate check 16 hits, with 12 normal dmg and 4 ODD)

Dmg dealt including WS: 1600
CE gain: 2070

Same set with haste (spell):
Dmg per swing: 50
WS dmg: 600
Swings per min: 22 (after hitrate check 20 hits, with 14 normal dmg and 6 ODD)

Dmg dealt including WS: 1900
CE gain: 2458.125

Differences between the sets: 400.5 CE (without haste spell) and 492.75 (with haste spell), in favor for the haste-set.

CE loss set 1:
Blockrate: 50%
PDT: 10%
Reduction by blocks: 60%

Dmg taken total: 3338
CE loss/min: 3876.3871

CE loss set 2:
Blockrate: 58%
PDT: 21%
Reduction by blocks: 60%

Dmg taken total: 2885.6
CE loss/min: 3351.01935

Differences between the sets: 525.37
Difference between loss and gain per minute: +~125 (without haste spell) and +~32 CE, in favor for the PDT/low-haste set.

Can you show your turtle set that has 94% accuracy?

Better yet, show both sets being compared. Im pretty confident that the sets are going to show the math to be off or with better alternatives.

424 skill
80+ dex
24 acc
+enlight
+sushi as needed/wanted

This usually goes way beyond 95% hitrate alone, as far as ffxi calculator goes for lvl 100ish mobs and no debuffs/buffs.

What is that proving? You don't specify individual damage taken/hit. So all we have to go on is "I took this damage in this set, and this damage in the other set."

We have zero enemy statistics or level, zero input on pdif after factoring +attack, neither set is allowing room for any STP the DD set might be wearing, along with DA gear. You don't mention how fast the enemy is even hitting you.

You ignore entirely variables such as Sentinel, Palisade (which prevents enmity loss), Reprisal, Crit hit rate affected by gear as either +crit or +DEX. The fact that if something is hitting so hard that you need to turtle up, the correct solution is to /NIN, favoring DD sets even more, the minor but still existent CE loss on shadow loss.

You've overlooked entirely the premise of VE decay and generation, the one type of enmity loss that cannot be mitigated at all unlike CE. Total Enemy HP, if it dies faster you take less damage obviously. Pretending CE is hard to cap is getting old. Keeping VE capped requires a volatile action, like a cure, Provoke, an attack, Flash. Each bound by it's own delay and recast, spells being the inferior. Did you ever stop to wonder why PLD died out in Abyssea?

Well, I mainly use this set in mind:


Vs this set in mind:

For one thing, neither att nor def does matter a whole lot on higher tier things anyway, you can see this clearly on MNK using counterstance against low-lvl stuff and high-lvl stuff.
On lower tier NMs, it DOES make a difference but on higher tier things it just DOESN'T.
So, that can be factored out for the time being.
Not to mention that PLD has very low att as it is, you can clearly see this while using Torcleaver, if you do have it that is.

STP is the same for both sets, DA is ignored as it may or may not boost both sets, with crits it's the same, neither set has more or less of either.

And again, VE is the most easy way to accumulate hate, don't be an idiot like that. CE is what counts and if you believe it doesn't, then I feel very sorry for you and want your Aegis since you don't seem to earn it very much.

Didn't know I needed torcleaver to see my attack stat.

Certainly don't need it to see it but it helps to understand it.
PLD's att is way too low to think it has an actual value for anything.
It's what I've been saying all along anyway, PLD is no DD and it will never be.

Of course, you could make major sacrifices in order to boost this stat and make yourself appear more like a melee job but it's not even close to equal.

Pretty sure I understand it better than you do.

Enlighten me then?!

Well, since you keep saying how low a PLD's attack is, that will just make it an even better stat to have for DD. Personally I don't think you know how to gear for DD or you'd know that a PLD can do a respectable amount easily.

I'm talking about player attack vs enemy defense obviously.


You're as dumb as they come. You get higher returns by increasing a low stat. If you raised you attack from 1.99 pDif to 2.0 you'd have a small % increase. Diminishing returns.



Well done, correct.


Wat? One set has a Brutal, the other does not. That's a flat 5% extra DA. Or an extra 4.54% increase to WS frequency, assuming both sets /WAR.


There's no difference in DEX in the sets, so yeah okay.


I hate repeating myself. With all the tools, JAs, Spells, Support that is available for you to mitigate damage with, such as Utsusemi, Sentinel, Palisade, Reprisal, Flash, Slow/Para from support, Stun, Shield Bash, CE loss should be the least of your worries since you should not be getting your *** beat. If you are, you suck.

VE decays no matter what, you cannot stop it. In the time you swing once you lose around 120VE. In the time you exit JA lock (3 seconds) after casting a spell or ability, you have already lost 180 VE before you can even begin your next action.

That is why DDs pull hate so much, both the PLD, the NIN, the DRK, the SAM, everything, caps CE, they only lose it when taking damage. Since the MNK and WAR and whatever else DD hits so much faster and harder than the PLD, they pull hate. Their VE is recapped immediately, whilst the PLD, relying on cures and weak offense, tails behind until the next spell is ready (which immediately is uncapped on cast).

You're a moron.

Not to mention you still have not provided any information on what you're fighting.

Edit: Actually, just noticed the swap to Atheling, another 20 Attack and 3% DA in favor of TP set. Amazing.

"A respectable amount"? What does that even mean?
500+?
600+?
700+?
I don't know where you're getting at but less than 800+ is far from respectable. Did you ever fight VW NMs?

Thats the part youre not understanding, no one said pld should be coming equal to a melee job. It will never be close to that, because that would be broken.

What people are advising is to pull your own weight. You do 10-20% of the mobs total HP, awesome, you held the mobs attention a majority of the time and provided your own damage aswell, no one expects anything less or more for that matter. Just standing there with the mobs attention is just not enough.

Maybe for other players they dont care, "pld damage, meh its not enough to care" but for others who are paladins and finally have an event where theyre atleast a spot capable to fill, for myself, I sure as hell am going to be doing everything I can possibly do to bring w/e I can to the table.

You have a sword for a reason, use it.

It means respectable.

"fair in size or quantity"

Didn't say a PLD is going to be top DD in your group, said that a PLD can do a respectable amount of damage. You're just arguing for the sake of no save face.

Not quite sure if I'm the moron here since you said it yourself, DDs recap VE every other second.
Do you expect anyone to believe that a PLD can be any equal to this?
Thus, a PLD's main source of getting hate is CE.
So, do I now get your Aegis or what?

You should be capping VE every other second as well if you used more haste.

You should try to understand att then. In some cases, adding 10 att does boost your dmg quite a lot. In other cases, even adding 100+ att doesn't do a single *** thing for you.
And considering PLD's natural att values, compared to other "real" melees and DDs, it's almost impossible for a PLD to achieve a "respectable" amount of att against anything that is beyond EXP mobs.

I understand attack far better than you do.

The only time 100 attack won't do anything for you is if you're already capped on attack, which you won't be with your "pathetic base PLD attack" on anything higher than TWTBW.

Where did I say you will out damage a DD? So long as you raise your damage output high enough to reclaim over 60VE a second, you will at least keep up in enmity with a DD.

Neither a WAR or PLD should be losing CE often enough to give a ***about it. You shouldn't be getting your *** kicked that hard that you're losing an amazing 3000 CE (as per your "sample") per *** minute.

Cap CE, recap it when you take a substantial hit. Swap back to DD set to try keep your VE as close to cap as possible. This is why mobs spin like a top, it turns to face the last one who hit it when enmity is capped. Hitting faster means it'll look at you more often.

Absolutely ridiculous.


lol @ adding 100 attack for zero effect. Yeah PLD has low attack, the lower the stat the bigger the % increase.

100 Attack.

Add 10.

10/100 = 10% increase.

500 Attack.

Add 10.

10/500 = 2% increase.

Damage will always be the fastest way to cap your CE. Pld has other utilities to assist with its damage(JA/spells) but you should not be relying on them soley.

I do agree with you and I did state this a few times as well, PLDs should pull their own weight in battles but not under by thinking that they would be actual melees or even DDs.
PLD is just not build that way, if you like that or not. Even with all the gear options we do have access to now, it still isn't enough to justify pure DDing.

Of course, with having an Ochain, it's a different story. But as it stands, with high-lvl NMs and still very low att, PLD is not a DD.

Man, you're so wrong. I suggest you read up on some old MNK threads regarding this.

lol. really now? how old are we talking, because for all i know, you could be pointing me to an 80% hit rate/meat build.