Dancer Dagger Maffs

So there is a wide collection of daggers dancer can use, and there's also a lot of speculation over what to use and when.

So I'm going to go ahead and take it on to myself to math all this out.

So to start, here's the gearset I'll use for comparison:

Haste: (256/1024) 25%
Dual Wield: (30% Trait + 3% neck + 5% Suppa + 10% body) = 48% DW
Double Attack: (3% Ring + 5% Brutal + 2% Belt + 3% Back) = 13% DA
Haste Samba: 10% Haste
Store TP: 21

Equation I'll use for DPS is DMG * Swings/min

Daggers

Phurba:
DMG: 44 Delay: 190

Twilight Knife:
DMG: 40 Delay: 190 "Quadruple Attack" +3%

Auric Dagger:
DMG: 39 Delay: 201 Dual Wield +5%

Parazonium +2
DMG: 22 Delay: 211 Occasionally Attacks 2-4 times (Averages 2.07 per round) source

Parazonium +2
DMG: 45 Delay: 211 Double Attack+10(%)

I will use 3 values for Double attack based on Saber Dance, these are 13% from gear, then 30%/50% Double attack+ from Saber dance Max/Min based on average merits. Thus to calculate true double attack rate I will use:

SD%(0~30~50) + (100-SD%)*GearDA

Normal:
0%: 13% Double Attack
30%: 30+(1-0.3)*13 = 39.1% Double Attack
50%: 50+(1+0.5)*13 = 56.5% Double Attack

Magian Double Attack+ Parazonium:
0%: 23% Double Attack
30% 30+(1-0.3)*23 = 46.1% Double Attack
50% 50+(1-0.5)*23 = 61.5% Double Attack


Lets start.

Dagger1+Dagger2
Dual Wield: -48/53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: Dmg1+Dmg2
Combined Delay: Delay1+Delay2
Dual Wield Delay: -(cDelay*DW) = (cDelay-dwDelay)
Individual Delay: dwDelay/2 = iDelay
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(iDelay - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = TP/S
Hasted Delay: -(0.35*iDelay) = (iDelay -hastedelay)
Swings/min = 3600/hDelay = S/M
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*S/M = +DA1
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*S/M = +DA2
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*S/M = +DA3
Quadruple Attack+ = (0.03%procrate*quadhits)*S/M = +QA
Total Swings/min = 60.3+QA+(DA1~DA2~DA3) = 67.5+(DA1~DA2~DA3)
= TS/M1~TS/M2~TS/M3
TPM = TP/S(TS/M1~TS/M2~TS/M3) = TPM1~TPM2~TPM3
DPS = cDMG(TS/M1~TS/M2~TS/M3) = DPS1~DPS2~DPS3

==================================================

Auric+Twilight
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 79
Combined Delay: 391
Dual Wield Delay: -207.23 = 183.7
Individual Delay: 183.77/2 = 91.8
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(91.8 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.2
Hasted Delay: -32.1 = 59.7
Swings/min = 3600/59.7 = 60.3
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*60.3 = +7.8
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*60.3 = +23.6
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*60.3 = +34.1
Quadruple Attack+ = (0.03*4)*60.3 = +7.2
Total Swings/min = 60.3+7.2+(7.8~23.6~34.1) = 67.5+(7.8~23.6~34.1)
= 75.3~91.1~101.6
TPM = 4.2(75.3~91.1~101.6) = 316.26~382.62~426.72
DPS = 79(75.3~91.1~101.6) = 5948.7~7196.9~8026.4

============================================
Phurba+Auric
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 83
Combined Delay: 391
Dual Wield Delay: -207.23 = 183.7
Individual Delay: 183.77/2 = 91.8
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(91.8 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.2
Hasted Delay: -32.1 = 59.7
Swings/min = 3600/59.7 = 60.3
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*60.3 = +7.8
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*60.3 = +23.6
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*60.3 = +34.1
Total Swings/min = 60.3+(7.8~23.6~34.1) = 68.1~83.9~94.4
TPM = 4.2(68.1~83.9~94.4) = 286.02~352.38~396.48
DPS = 83(68.1~83.9~94.4) = 5652.3~6963.7~7835.2

============================================

Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined Delay: 412
Dual Wield Delay: -218.3 = 193.7
Individual Delay: 193.7/2 = 96.9
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(96.9 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -33.9 = 63.0
Swings/min = (3600/63.0)/2 = 28.6 Each Hand
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*28.6 = +3.7
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*28.6 = +11.2
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*28.6 = +16.2

MAINHAND(Auric)
Total Swings: 28.6+(3.7~11.2~16.2) = 32.3~39.8~44.8
DPS: 39(32.3~39.8~44. = 1259.7~1552.2~1747.2
TP/M: 4.3(32.3~39.8~44. = 138.5~171.1~192.6

OFFHAND(Parazonium) (OA2-4 doesnt proc on swing that procced DA)
Proccable swings:
Double Attack1: -3.7 = 24.9
Double Attack2: -11.2 = 17.4
Double Attack3: -16.2 = 12.4

Average hits = Successful proc hits *2.07 + double attack procs*2
Double Attack1: 24.9*2.07 + 3.7*2 = 51.5+7.4 = 58.9
Double Attack2: 17.4*2.07 + 11.2*2 = 36.0+22.4 = 58.4
Double Attack3: 12.4*2.07 + 16.2*2 = 25.7+32.4 = 58.1

DPS: 22(58.9~58.4~58.1) = 1295.8~1284.8~1278.2
TP/M: 4.3(58.9~58.4~58.1) = 253.3~251.1~249.8

Totals:
DPS: (1259.7+1295.~(1552.2+1284.~(1747.2+1278.2) =
2554.8~2837~3025.4
TP/M: (138.5+253.3)~(171.1+251.1)~(192.6+249. =
391.8~422.2~442.4

============================================

Auric+DA Parazonium+2
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 84
Combined Delay: 412
Dual Wield Delay: -218.3 = 193.7
Individual Delay: 193.7/2 = 96.9
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(96.9 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -33.9 = 63.0
Swings/min = (3600/63.0) = 57.1
Double Attack1+ = 57.1*0.23 = 13.1
Double Attack2+ = 57.1*0.461 = 26.3
Double Attack3+ = 57.1*0.615 = 35.1

Total Swings/min = 57.1+(13.1~26.3~35.1) = 70.2~83.4~92.2
TPM = 4.3(70.2~83.4~92.2) = 301.86~358.62~396.46
DPS = 84(70.2~83.4~92.2) = 5896.8~7005.6~7744.8

============================================

Phurba+Twilight
Dual Wield: -48%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 84
Combined Delay: 380
Dual Wield Delay: -182.4 = 197.6
Individual Delay: 197.6/2 = 98.8
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(98.8 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -34.5 = 64.3
Swings/min = 3600/64.3 = 56.0
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*56.0 = +7.3
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*56.0 = +21.9
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*56.0 = +31.6
Quadruple Attack+ = (0.03*4)*56.0 = +6.7
Total Swings/min = 60.3+6.7+(7.3~21.9~31.6) = 67+(7.3~21.9~31.6)
=74.3~88.9~98.6
TPM = 4.3(74.3~88.9~98.6) = 319.49~382.27~423.98
DPS = 84(74.3~88.9~98.6) = 6241.2~7467.6~8282.4

============================================

Parazonium(DA) + Twilight
Dual Wield: -48%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 85
Combined Delay: 401
Dual Wield Delay: -192.4 = 208.6
Individual Delay: 208.6/2 = 104.3
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(104.3 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -36.5 = 67.8
Swings/min = 3600/67.8 = 53.1
Double Attack1+ = 53.1*0.23 = 12.2
Double Attack2+ = 53.1*0.461 = 24.5
Double Attack3+ = 53.1*0.615 = 32.7
(I am going to assume Quad Attack and Double Attack can't both proc, right?)
Quadruple Attack1+ = (0.03*4)*(53.1-12.2) = 0.12*40.9 = +4.9
Quadruple Attack2+ = (0.03*4)*(53.1-24.5) = 0.12*28.6 = +3.4
Quadruple Attack3+ = (0.03*4)*(53.1-32.7) = 0.12*20.4 = +2.5
Total Swings/min1 = 53.1+4.9(quad)+12.2(DA) = 70.2
Total Swings/min2 = 53.1+3.4(quad)+24.5(DA) = 81
Total Swings/min3 = 53.1+2.5(quad)+32.7(DA) = 88.3
= 70.2~81~88.3
TPM = 4.3(70.2~81~88.3) = 301.86~348.3~379.69
DPS = 85(70.2~81~88.3) = 5967~6885~7505.5

===============================================

Auric+Twilight
TPM = 316.26~382.62~426.72
DPS = 5948.7~7196.9~8026.4

Phurba+Auric
TPM = 286.02~352.38~396.48
DPS = 5652.3~6963.7~7835.2

Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2
TPM: 391.8~422.2~442.4
DPS: 2554.8~2837~3025.4

Auric+DA Parazonium+2
TPM = 301.86~358.62~396.46
DPS = 5896.8~7005.6~7744.8

Phurba+Twilight
TPM = 319.49~382.27~423.98
DPS = 6241.2~7467.6~8282.4

Parazonium(DA) + Twilight
TPM = 301.86~348.3~379.69
DPS = 5967~6885~7505.5

Dagger Combos By DPS, Highest -> Lowest

Phurba+Twilight
v
Auric+Twilight
v
Phurba+Auric
v
Auric+DA Parazonium+2
v
Parazonium(DA) + Twilight
v
Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2


Dagger Combos by TP/M, Highest -> Lowest
Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2
v
Phurba+Twilight
v
Auric+Twilight
v
Phurba+Auric
v
Auric+DA Parazonium+2
v
Parazonium(DA) + Twilight

Synopsis (AKA: TL;DR)

SO we have, for highest TP gain, Auric +OA2-4 dagger offhanded. The TP gain of this combo soars above the rest with fan dance up, however once you put up saber dance its TP rate actually gets caught up to by all the other sets quite quickly. This makes sense as you'll often double attack on OA2-4 swings instead of having the effect proc, slowing TP gain a bit.

The next best for TP gain is Phurba+Twilight, which also happens to have significantly the highest DPS. With Saber Dance up this pair is only 20 TP/M lower than Auric+OA2-4, yet it has nearly triple the DPS.

Auric makes a decent substitute in for twilight or phurba in this deadly combo, ranking in at second and third place for DPS and 3rd/4th in TPM.

Tl;Dr Any combination of Auric, Twilight, and Phurba is a recipe for win. Note: all you dancers with +2 AF3 gear, we're fairly certain Twilight's proc effect cancels out or +2 set bonus so avoid mainhanding Twilight. Tops you lose 1 base DMG in the auric+twilight combo, which seems like a good trade off imo for a "just in case" measure.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. Also if there's an issue in anything I calculated please point it out!

If you have a request for another dagger combo to see how it compares against the rest, feel free to post, though I'd appreciate it if you tried to calculate it yourself, I even posted the equations up at the top. It's not hard, just time consuming. Most of this is grade 7 math.

And if you find a rather notable dagger combo in DPS or TP/M, do post it for us to see!

Finally:
I spent over 4 hours doing all this number crunching, so please, if you're going to post all of this somewhere else (And I will see it, I browse nearly every big FFXI forum out there) take the 15 seconds to give me credit, ok?

~Urat (of Quetz)

I only hit 90 dnc last week, so I'm not the best authority on this, but shouldn't the str kila+2's be mentioned for dps?

Hard to factor in stuff like att+ and str+ for DPS, otherwise I would.

But if you look:

Phurba:
DMG:44 Delay:190

Kila+2:
DMG: 43 Delay: 190

They're pretty much the same dagger, so what you need to ask is giving up 1 dmg and 10% waltz potency for 9 str and 20 attack worth it?

Well that depends what your fighting but both are viable daggers. I'd personally use phurba because it's easier to get and the waltz potency+ means you need to use waltzes less often and can save TP.

really str/agi kila's should of been included. i've never been a fan of twilight or auric.

phurba has 10 acc too.

I was thinking Phurba/Kila+2 vs the other options, not Phurba vs Kila+2

Horribly incomplete, but nothing more than I expected once I saw who the OP was tbh.

Quick note:

More extensive parses have put it at ~1.9 hits/round. lol @ sourcing a 275 hit parse.

Don't be an ***.

i was actually hoping another math person would come in. i'd rather someone who has a more concrete standing on dnc maths come in and set the record straight than let bad info leak out. i saw a 90 dnc using auric/joytoy. things like that cannot happen!

He's neglected WS damage and frequency; you can argue that around a bit since DNC JAs consume TP but he did include Saber Dance so it should be evaluated since that places an emphasis on DDing. It's a rather glaring omission these days since DNC functions as more of a hybrid DD/support job now than a full support class. He's also completely neglected the Kilas and Twashtar and I'm pretty sure he's evaluating multihit procs wrong since it doesn't look like he's accounted for higher priority procs preventing lower priority procs except for DA vs OA2-4. On that note, I don't see any evaluation of TA whatsoever despite wearing Epona's and the Saber Dance values used are completely wrong (decays from 50->20% over 30 seconds regardless of merits, so you're working with a 21.5~22.5% average DA rate depending on merits if you assume JA use as soon as the recast is up).

kila+2 and phurba would be a great combo to compare.
wouod love to see agiand str

so on a side note, which atmas should be used now that the critical damage cap is raised?

still rr/gh/apoc?
i dont expect a huge math parse reply, but id like to know what to atleast throw on

If TA has diminishing returns or whatever wouldnt A&O be better? Theres really no such thing as a set 3 atmas depends on what you are doing really

yeah i know blah blah "***'s situational"

but before the crit update i saw everyone preaching that RR/GH/Apoc was one of the best combos for overall DD'ing

now with the crit update would RR/GH/sanguine scythe be a better combo? or does apoc still trump it?

I drop GH before Apoc. Apoc affects DPS and most WS dmg. But i only Sanguine scythe if i need more hp.

Idk man. Personally i love GH, just me though. No point in crit dmg atmas if you arent critting! Of course everyone will say they are at 100% crit rate w/o it.

this

also there is only 1 rank 5 dagger in your math which is a problem, main handing a rank 5 weapon is pretty much a must if you are trying to go for damage. the multi hit para is more or less garbage, the only one you should be focusing on is the DA para, it's a rank 5 and has the 10% da which doesnt decay like oat para does. auric is good only if you are solo, twilight is really only a defensive weapon and a moot one at best for dnc, phurba is a support weapon with decent stats, but it gets floored to rank 4 with it's 44 dmg where you need atleast a 45 dmg weapon in your main hand. twashtar is your best bet of course if only because its one of the lightest daggers can use AND is a rank 5. Daka is also a good weapon to main hand due to it being a rank 5 and giving you access to rudra which every 2 minutes while give you rather large spikes in your ws (nearly double what your evisceration will do). as it stands a DA para + str kila is 8.18% better than auric + OA4 para in a /war setup and 6.26% better in a /nin setup.


the fire kila is pretty much the most superior rank 4 weapon a dnc can offhand, the str/attack really does alot due to dnc having a difficult time getting attack at higher numbers and is even more crucial /war. if you are gonna go for DD, go for DD, that 10% waltz potency is not going to help much when all you're doing is feeding the mob TP.

There's two factors to consider here. One, DNC has a very high multiattack rate. This devalues additional multiattack, especially if you're mainhanding a DA Parazonium for another 10% DA. Two, Evisceration is a 6-hit WS (including offhand). This severely reduces the value of TA on WS, both because of its high resulting fTP and because it's two hits shy of the cap for hits/round. As a result, depending on your setup and how often you're using Evisceration it may be better to use RR/GH/SS instead of Apoc or A&O when focusing on DD. Which TA atma is better depends on cRatio, 50 attack is a substantial increase for DNC.

that makes complete sense actually thanks

Sanguine scythe gives critical hit damage + (major) which is the same as razed ruins (+major). Razed ruins is a 30% bonus to critical damage so we could assume sanguine scythe is also a 30% bonus

sounds like that 30% damage will add much more than a small boost to triple attack rate so thanks for that :3

+1 for you

With the mog bonanza on the horizon..
What we really need to be worrying about is

Terpsichore (90) + Twashtar !

im pretty sure mythics at 90 get a ws damage bonus

and if im correct in thinking that i wonder how a striking flourished PK would do :3

Which reminds me:

Anyone able to confirm what the update notes meant when they said they were adjusting the effects of Striking Flourish?

well between the update and the maintenance that followed shortly afterwards, striking made a dinging sound when your ws was going to crit if you had charis body on, after the update though it just dings everytime. i had to talk to a gm about it because i felt like i was losing my mind.

The change was adjusting the animation, I think. That was the "change" to all the Job Abilities that they adjusted in that patch.

Also, yeah this comparison is kind of woefully incomplete.

Auric is virtually useless unless you're uncapped on Subtle Blow AND need it. Clement Skean is a stronger offhand, DPS wise (not commenting on the quality of Clement Skean, just comparing it to Auric).

If I win moggie bon I will DEFINITELY get a Terp. I've never even seen one in game :O

30% crit damage is only a 30% increase in DPS if you assume 100% crit rate and no other crit damage boosts. Realistically, it's closer to a 20% improvement. 15% TA is a 30% increase to DPS if we assume no prior DA or TA. Factoring in DA from saber dance and gear, and TA from epona's, it's somewhere between 20% and 25% increase.

The only reason to use SS over Apoc is for the extra HP and lower TP feed.

I'm not exactly a math guy so I'm sorry if this comes off as stupid but lets look at how much of a crit rate dancer can get (in abyssea)

"The minimum critical hit rate from DEX vs. AGI is 5%, the maximum is 20%. Equipment and merits that increase critical hit rate are added on top of this. " - wiki on Critical Hit

~going off the set from above~

-----Lets assume the dex is capped since we have razed ruins, and cruor buffs so a base 20%

----- Razed Ruins grants 30%

----- Gnarled horn grants 20%? It is listed as Major, while razed ruins is superior and grants 30%: minor, major, superior, 3 tiers of potency so its safe to assume it works in intervals of 10% as far as critical hit rate goes

----- 5/5 merits gives another 5%

I dont know if i'm missing anything else but that totals to a 75% crit rate (I'm not sure how everyone else says they can get 100% crit rate tbh)

So SS gives a 30% boost to critical hit damage, if your crit rate is 75% then that is a pretty substantial amount i would imagine, I know the triple attack is nice, but i dont see how it can be a 25% increase in DPS, 20% sounds more believable, i guess i would have to see testing or get verification of that

i dont mean to come off as negative or anything dont get me wrong :3
i just wanna make myself a better dancer, question everything! as they say! and i do appreciate your information kirana!

What I was trying to get across is that SS and apoc are fairly similar as far as DPS goes. Apoc easily wins assuming you don't already have large amounts of DA or TA (from what I understand, dancer gets a lot of DA).

thats correct, with the amount of DA/TA mentioned in OP's post AoA increases your DPS by 25% exactly, where as SS would increase your DPS by 22.5% if your crit rate is at 75%. Now if you had saber dance up and you go with the 20~% DA increase from it AoA would increase your DPS by 20.4% where as SS still increases your DPS by 22.5%.