now how do people get the 100% crit rate? is it an exaggeration? or am i missing something there?
thanks for the info Sira! this has been a very informative thread for me
Dancer Dagger Maffs
Dancer Dagger Maffs
Evisceration is a critical hitting weaponskill that can be force critted with climactic flourish.
Combined with its high hit count, SS+RR+GH is the best set up for dancer hands down. Triple attack does nothing for Evisceration compared to crit dmg+30%
Apoc might have ever so slightly better dmg+ for dps but SS/RR/GH or whatever you choose to swap out, the moment you drop an evisceration those three atmas prevail way higher.
But Apoc's auto-RR can be very invaluable in any situation where you could die, obviously.
Combined with its high hit count, SS+RR+GH is the best set up for dancer hands down. Triple attack does nothing for Evisceration compared to crit dmg+30%
Apoc might have ever so slightly better dmg+ for dps but SS/RR/GH or whatever you choose to swap out, the moment you drop an evisceration those three atmas prevail way higher.
But Apoc's auto-RR can be very invaluable in any situation where you could die, obviously.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Evisceration is a critical hitting weaponskill that can be force critted with climactic flourish.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Evisceration is a critical hitting weaponskill that can be force critted with climactic flourish.
Combined with its high hit count, SS+RR+GH is the best set up for dancer hands down. Triple attack does nothing for Evisceration compared to crit dmg+30%
Apoc might have ever so slightly better dmg+ for dps but SS/RR/GH or whatever you choose to swap out, the moment you drop an evisceration those three atmas prevail way higher.
But Apoc's auto-RR can be very invaluable in any situation where you could die, obviously.
Combined with its high hit count, SS+RR+GH is the best set up for dancer hands down. Triple attack does nothing for Evisceration compared to crit dmg+30%
Apoc might have ever so slightly better dmg+ for dps but SS/RR/GH or whatever you choose to swap out, the moment you drop an evisceration those three atmas prevail way higher.
But Apoc's auto-RR can be very invaluable in any situation where you could die, obviously.
[+]
Wrong Urat. SS+RR+GH may be the best combo for evisceration under certain circumstances, but it is definitely not the "best set up for dancer hands down" lol. You seem to totally miss the fact that apoc not only increases evisceration's damage but greatly increases tp gain as well resulting in more eviscerations.
[+]
from whats been stated earlier, and the setup shown in OP i think its safe to assume
RR/GH/SS when using saber dance
RR/GH/apoc when not using saber dance
RR/GH/SS when using saber dance
RR/GH/apoc when not using saber dance
Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said:
thats correct, with the amount of DA/TA mentioned in OP's post AoA increases your DPS by 25% exactly, where as SS would increase your DPS by 22.5% if your crit rate is at 75%. Now if you had saber dance up and you go with the 20~% DA increase from it AoA would increase your DPS by 20.4% where as SS still increases your DPS by 22.5%.
Reverse flourish stands for the vast majority of your TP if you don't suck.
Ergo, no, triple attack +15% doesnt give you enough tp to increase your DPS compared to 30%(80%) dmg increase per hit.
The math is pretty simple, at 30%(80%) increase in dmg, that is the raw increase to your dps overall.
15% TA increases tp rate by 30%, meaning you perform evisciration 30% faster IF YOU NEVER USE REVERSE FLOURISH EVER.
Sadly with AF3+2 gloves, half of your eviscerations are practically free, which means Triple attack only makes HALF of your eviscerations come 30% faster, thus it increases evisceration ws dmg overall by only 15%. VS crit dmg+30% which increases it pretty much a raw 30%. (not quote since a small part of the ws dmg is the add hits after main, so its prolly 25%)
Since you're giving up 30% crit rate or 30% crit dmg for 15% ta, you get +30% hits but -30% dmg, which means the +dmg from the triple attack is actually pretty weak.
Before you start waving around your "LOL TRIPLE ATTACK INCREASES TP" you should actually math out HOW MUCH that tp increase actually affects your dps.
Protip: increases to TP rate roughly increase ws damage over time by half that of normal for dancer due to reverse flourish.
Ergo, no, triple attack +15% doesnt give you enough tp to increase your DPS compared to 30%(80%) dmg increase per hit.
The math is pretty simple, at 30%(80%) increase in dmg, that is the raw increase to your dps overall.
15% TA increases tp rate by 30%, meaning you perform evisciration 30% faster IF YOU NEVER USE REVERSE FLOURISH EVER.
Sadly with AF3+2 gloves, half of your eviscerations are practically free, which means Triple attack only makes HALF of your eviscerations come 30% faster, thus it increases evisceration ws dmg overall by only 15%. VS crit dmg+30% which increases it pretty much a raw 30%. (not quote since a small part of the ws dmg is the add hits after main, so its prolly 25%)
Since you're giving up 30% crit rate or 30% crit dmg for 15% ta, you get +30% hits but -30% dmg, which means the +dmg from the triple attack is actually pretty weak.
Before you start waving around your "LOL TRIPLE ATTACK INCREASES TP" you should actually math out HOW MUCH that tp increase actually affects your dps.
Protip: increases to TP rate roughly increase ws damage over time by half that of normal for dancer due to reverse flourish.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Reverse flourish stands for the vast majority of your TP if you don't suck.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Ergo, no, triple attack +15% doesnt give you enough tp to increase your DPS compared to 30%(80%) dmg increase per hit.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
15% TA increases tp rate by 30%, meaning you perform evisciration 30% faster IF YOU NEVER USE REVERSE FLOURISH EVER.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Sadly with AF3+2 gloves, half of your eviscerations are practically free, which means Triple attack only makes HALF of your eviscerations come 30% faster, thus it increases evisceration ws dmg overall by only 15%. VS crit dmg+30% which increases it pretty much a raw 30%. (not quote since a small part of the ws dmg is the add hits after main, so its prolly 25%)
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Since you're giving up 30% crit rate or 30% crit dmg for 15% ta, you get +30% hits but -30% dmg, which means the +dmg from the triple attack is actually pretty weak.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Before you start waving around your "LOL TRIPLE ATTACK INCREASES TP" you should actually math out HOW MUCH that tp increase actually affects your dps.
you think i didn't? is this from someone that neglected to even consider weapon ranking in their first post?
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Protip: increases to TP rate roughly increase ws damage over time by half that of normal for dancer due to reverse flourish.
note: im not shitting on SS
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Reverse flourish stands for the vast majority of your TP if you don't suck.
No really, I'm tl;dring the entirety of your post because the very first line made my head spin. Even without Saber Dance or a TA atma a DNC with the gear in your OP generates over 150 TP in 30 seconds with no outside buffs. Even subtracting 8.75 TP for Haste Samba and accounting for JA delay, we're still over 100 TP per RF cycle (~110-120 depending on your ability to stack JAs). In what world does that translate to a JA that generates <100 TP every 30 seconds producing the "vast majority" of your TP gain?
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
Reverse flourish stands for the vast majority of your TP if you don't suck.
No really, I'm tl;dring the entirety of your post because the very first line made my head spin. Even without Saber Dance or a TA atma a DNC with the gear in your OP generates over 150 TP in 30 seconds with no outside buffs. Even subtracting 8.75 TP for Haste Samba and accounting for JA delay, we're still over 100 TP per RF cycle (120-130 depending on your ability to stack JAs). In what world does that translate to a JA that generates <100 TP every 30 seconds producing the "vast majority" of your TP gain?
Climactic Flourish only forces the first hit. Not sure where you're going with that, but that's a waste of finishing moves when you can use 5 after an Evisceration to just land another one.
Ramuh.Austar said:
Climactic Flourish only forces the first hit. Not sure where you're going with that, but that's a waste of finishing moves when you can use 5 after an Evisceration to just land another one.
Quetzalcoatl.Urat said:
I'm arguing with retards.
Ok, well I'm not going to bother anymore, I lay everything out clear as day and you don't get it, so there's not much else i can do. If you don't get it you don't get it.
Enjoy gimping it up.
Ok, well I'm not going to bother anymore, I lay everything out clear as day and you don't get it, so there's not much else i can do. If you don't get it you don't get it.
Enjoy gimping it up.
also lol @ calling nightfyre at the very least a retard.
edit: o i see, deleted?
In most situations, you can break melee DPS down into three basic elements (one of which breaks down into three smaller elements):
Melee DPS (not including Weaponskills) = (Average pDIF)*(Average Base Damage)/(Round Delay)
Average pDIF = (Average Normal Hit pDIF)*(1 - Critical Hit Rate) + (Average Critical Hit pDIF)*(1+Critical Hit Damage)*(Critical Hit Rate)
Average Base Damage = (Weapon 1 Base Damage + fSTR)*(Weapon 1 Attacks/Round) + (Weapon 2 Base Damage + fSTR)*(Weapon 2 Attacks/Round)
Round Delay is actually composed of 3 separable terms:
Round Delay = (Weapon 1 Delay + Weapon 2 Delay)*(1-Dual Wield %)*(1-Haste %)
If you're holding all the values in a term constant, you don't have to model for it. However, if you're doing something like increasing Critical Hit Damage or rate, you can't ignore pDIF. It's part of the same term and it's isn't mathematically separable.
Furthermore, I parse about a 50/50 TP/WS split in Abyssea, and I'd parse higher in favor of WS if the monsters had more HP. If you only model DPS, you're modeling half of the damage from a combination or less.
Melee DPS (not including Weaponskills) = (Average pDIF)*(Average Base Damage)/(Round Delay)
Average pDIF = (Average Normal Hit pDIF)*(1 - Critical Hit Rate) + (Average Critical Hit pDIF)*(1+Critical Hit Damage)*(Critical Hit Rate)
Average Base Damage = (Weapon 1 Base Damage + fSTR)*(Weapon 1 Attacks/Round) + (Weapon 2 Base Damage + fSTR)*(Weapon 2 Attacks/Round)
Round Delay is actually composed of 3 separable terms:
Round Delay = (Weapon 1 Delay + Weapon 2 Delay)*(1-Dual Wield %)*(1-Haste %)
If you're holding all the values in a term constant, you don't have to model for it. However, if you're doing something like increasing Critical Hit Damage or rate, you can't ignore pDIF. It's part of the same term and it's isn't mathematically separable.
Furthermore, I parse about a 50/50 TP/WS split in Abyssea, and I'd parse higher in favor of WS if the monsters had more HP. If you only model DPS, you're modeling half of the damage from a combination or less.
so glad you guys came in here. when there were no posts i was worried it would sit at the top of the dnc forum and i'd start seeing dancers wearing auric/2-4x running around.
Ragnarok.Hevans said:
so glad you guys came in here. when there were no posts i was worried it would sit at the top of the dnc forum and i'd start seeing dancers wearing auric/2-4x running around.
Have to ask -- what's the verdict on angr/mantodea harpe? I'm still working on trial daggers (um, apart from my evasion kila+2s D:) and i will probably bug some friends to assist with farming Adze, but i don't want to look like a total jerk in the meantime.
They're okay, if you literally have nothing else. Any Kila+2 would probably be a better choice, honestly.
Ramuh.Krizz said:
Don't be an ***.
Can i marry you?
Mantodea is better than Angr. Mantodea is probably a better main-hand than your AGI Kila +2, unless your AGI Kila +2 allows you to maintain some piece of gear you'd normally have to sacrifice for Evasion.
Cerberus.Oseryu said:
Ramuh.Krizz said:
Don't be an ***.
Can i marry you?
Ramuh.Austar said:
They're okay, if you literally have nothing else. Any Kila+2 would probably be a better choice, honestly.
Wow, really? They're at least rank 5 weapons... is the delay that bad that it hurts your DPS that much?
Norondor said:
Ramuh.Austar said:
They're okay, if you literally have nothing else. Any Kila+2 would probably be a better choice, honestly.
Wow, really? They're at least rank 5 weapons... is the delay that bad that it hurts your DPS that much?
Norondor said:
Ramuh.Austar said:
They're okay, if you literally have nothing else. Any Kila+2 would probably be a better choice, honestly.
Wow, really? They're at least rank 5 weapons... is the delay that bad that it hurts your DPS that much?
Ramuh.Austar said:
Norondor said:
Ramuh.Austar said:
They're okay, if you literally have nothing else. Any Kila+2 would probably be a better choice, honestly.
Wow, really? They're at least rank 5 weapons... is the delay that bad that it hurts your DPS that much?
like 2 elemental magians with 190 delay a piece comes to a total of 197.6 delay
now with 1 elemental magian and either harpe which is 210 delay you come to a total of 208 delay, which is just a bit more than 10 delay which is not bad at all with the fact that you are now in the next higher dmg bracket for your WS at the very least.
I dunno, I think you're overrating the benefit of weapon rank. It's essentially only giving you +1 over the listed base dmg. In the majority of situations, the atk on say a str kila would be more useful.
rather increases the use of str
fstr is dependent on your weapon rank, once you reached the amount of str required for the cap of that weapon rank further str just gives you some minor attack, increasing your weapon rank increases the cap on fstr thus making the excess str your character has exponentially more useful.
fstr is dependent on your weapon rank, once you reached the amount of str required for the cap of that weapon rank further str just gives you some minor attack, increasing your weapon rank increases the cap on fstr thus making the excess str your character has exponentially more useful.
[+]
So... what are some conclusions on this? What is the ultimate DD Dagger combo a DNC should aim for, and what will suffice until that can be obtained (assuming DDing in a group with little to no support)?
Also, if you want to use SS (lets say for the HP), do you replace Apoc or GH?
Also, if you want to use SS (lets say for the HP), do you replace Apoc or GH?
Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said:
rather increases the use of str
fstr is dependent on your weapon rank, once you reached the amount of str required for the cap of that weapon rank further str just gives you some minor attack, increasing your weapon rank increases the cap on fstr thus making the excess str your character has exponentially more useful.
fstr is dependent on your weapon rank, once you reached the amount of str required for the cap of that weapon rank further str just gives you some minor attack, increasing your weapon rank increases the cap on fstr thus making the excess str your character has exponentially more useful.
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