Hate Control For DD

If its hampering the party, then the party isn't doing it right.

The party includes the DDs, and it could be them who is "not doing it right."

It is rare that you ever have a party where DDs can go 100% all the time, and when it does happen, it probably means that someone else is not having a good time.

I love to blast away on SAM/RNG, but you won't see me do it much in EXP parties because I'm a massive MP sink most of the time and it's just not as much fun to me to sit back until the mob is 30% to explode it.

My point is, I don't care what position you are in, think about ALL the positions in a party. All the MP a main heal has to dump on a DD that got over zealous could have easily been saved if they would have just thought for a second about the ramifications of what they were doing. Spending less MP per fight can only be a good thing. If you're squishy, don't take hate unless it's absolutely necessary or unavoidable.

Too many people just don't think about what they do, and just "OMG WS!!!!!1!1" the second they can.

Edit: I'll admit, I am biased towards a main heal perspective, since that's the role I fill a lot of the time. But having done it, it gives me a better perspective on how to keep things going efficiently no matter what role I fill in a party. It's not all about the parse...it's about thinking of the party as a WHOLE.

That's why I only use RNG pullers and make them pull with Barrage and Sidewinder...

Remove the tank and bring 4 DDs that can handle a few hits their direction. Then when everyone goes all out (barring 1 person is over/under powered compared to the rest of the pt) hate should switch just in time to keep everyone running well.

2SAMs can tank better than any PLD or NIN ever thought about.
Not to mention bring up your xp/hr which is why ppl look to max their parse, and why people eat food at bird camps.

Id rather get 24k/hr and accidentally have 1-2 deaths in the 5hrs we merit than get 15k/hr and everyone get humdrum over rinse/repeat that they leave after 45mins. If you have pt'd with people before hand give them warning and test their abilities. As people push themselves, they tend to remember you and love to come back and party again, especially if the xp parses or beats their usual "safe" xp. This makes everyone better next time neways and all it does is get more and more smooth.

EDIT: The remove tank scenario doesn't only apply to the meripos I referred to in my post. I lvld 4 jobs through AU and had a "tank" in maybe 3-4 pts. The rest of the time 1-2 WARs SAMs DNCs or RNGs have managed to tank just fine.

The zerg approach definitely works in some situations, but it's people that wanna zerg in a non-zerg party that cause the problems.

3 zerg's in one sentence lol

We are ~sorta~ arguing the same thing here. You are against idiots slowing down the party by doing stupid things, Mab and I are against idiots slowing down the party by being in it in the first place. If someone is so dumb that they are eating damage the healers can't support then boot them. Replace them with a DD that knows how to go all out and not be xp/hr killer.

God I wanted to kill people who did that ***when I was on PLD...

#2, Aramina...I agree....DDs not watching the hate line is just painful. Granted in some situations (read: Nyzul Isle) going all out is OK, but most exp situations (and most endgame too)....I have let DDs die from doing stupid ***, as RDM, WHM, and PLD.

Yeah, I know it's easy to boot them...but simply booting them doesn't make them understand why they can't do a certain thing. I know it's not my problem to make them understand, and some people just simply don't wanna understand, or don't care...but I find in situations like that a lot of people are quick to point fingers at the tank and/or main heal for not being able to "keep up with the DD" when in all honesty they could have made a change themselves and everything would have been fine.

It's a common attitude I find among those that are DD onry, I just wish people thought more about what the hell they were doing then simply "how much damage can I crank out as fast as possible?"..

Oh well, you know what they say, "wish in one hand and ***in the other" and all that...

I've pt'd with enough crap tanks and healers though too, where all the same arguments apply.

True, true...my point is, overall, I just expect people to look outside their own little niche in a party and consider the ramifications of their actions on the party as a whole. Too many people don't do that, yet expect everyone else to adapt to whatever they're doing, and when it's damn near impossible to do so, blame everyone else for it. Throw in 2 or more people with this attitude in a party, and you've got a group, that while somewhat successful in the short term, makes people wanna smash their keyboard against the wall.

This is all truth, and why I won't xp / event with said people.

And all this, and all the attitudes I saw on here... is why I generally avoid partying anymore, and especially certain invites ( >> {Level Sync} 55?).. I cant stand zerges anymore, drives me insane, regardless of the role I'm playing, and everyone in there is almost always of a certain class of character who epeen all the time and are just no fun to hang around...

I'd much rather go for the slow fun party than the fastashellbutnoonetalksandeveryoneisonlylookingoutfortheirowngood party... I even go for soloing than those these days *shrug*

But still, for NONzerg style pts; the DDs need to know how to manage hate. For that matter, the DDs need to learn in the first place, so for other situations they can fall back into that role (say a certain NM or something)

Taking a hit or two is fine, but pulling hate off at start/middle of fight, and the tank being unable to pull hate off isn't (unless they can take care of themselves)

I seriously cannot believe the attitudes some people have towards this "If your not pulling hate, your doing it wrong" <--- that is a seriously screwed up attitude to take, and makes everyone else's job in the pt harder

Pull hate ONCE just to prove to yourself and others that you can do it. Other wise do less damage, if you die cause you wanted to make big numbers pop out you are hurting my exp and everyone elses for when we need to raise you and wait for you to get better or stop because the mage is out of mp from cure bombing you.

I have actually kicked a dead DD and exp'd with 5 people on their corpse as a way to express my disdain for their attitude.

A good DD can apadt to any party they find themselves in, and that includes knowing when to lay it on a little harder, when to hold back a little, when to pull hate off someone else, etc.

Big numbers alone do not make a DD good. Knowing how and when to flex those numbers and move hate around is what makes a DD good.

Someone who has the ability and know-how to do both, drop massive damage and control themselves, is a great DD, but I find that those are few and far between.

There are a lot of very different ways to view this thread. I assume we're talking about exp parties.

Pre-75, IT mobs, if you're taking hate and have no way to deal with it, you're not doing it right. Then again, every job (Except RNG) has a way of dealing with taking hate. Learn to use it, and you can take all the hate you want. This generally leads to better exp than being a conservative DD.

At 75, if you're waiting until 60% or lower mob HP, there's no way you're holding a chain.



Then there's no such thing as a great DD. Massive damage and hate-control are two sides of a coin. You cannot have both, no matter how good your tank is.

Going to have to agree to disagree on this.

I've seen DDs do insane damage and be fine, and others do damage and get flattened on the same job in the same situation.

Obviously they were doing something differently.

Going to have to agree with the above agree to disagree that refrenced the post that disagree's with someone being able to be an agreeable DD.

ninja tanks need thfs. imo, a DD can't be a great DD without a great tank. and the tank can b great on his own (or with a THF). paladins should be able to hold hate by themselves. They have all sorts of tools to keel the DDs from getting smacked around. mainly hate pulling, but i notice that most PLDs don't use cover... why? i love to use cover, it means the DDs are doing their job. i don't wanna b in a party on my pld where nobody can turn the mob. if that's the case, i'll leave. but if i know someone turned the mob and provoke and everything is down, cover is there to keep the DD alive for 15 seconds. i can't stand a DRK that doesn't use any abilities just because they have bad experiences with sorry tanks... a DRK needs to use souleater so i can use cover. if your tank isn't doing this then either tell them to do better to leave.

Yay for DRG. >.>

Seriously though, when I was leveling DRG, I partied with my ls who had a PLD tank and he held hate extremely well, even though I would berserk, and spit out 700-1k Penta Thrusts, and the THF would SATA-WS me also. But if I ever pulled hate, i could just Super Jump it(which the only time i got SATA'd on was if SJ was up). I think DRG is one of the exceptions to the "two sides of the coin" in this case, only because of their hate shed jumps. Can easily do a 600-800 Penta > Meditate > Jump > High Jump > 600-800 Penta > super Jump, and bam 40+% of the mobs HP and no hate to deal with >:3

Ah... that reminds me of a party I had recently. I was on BLM and got an invite to a party that had 2 SAM. I MB'd every single battle, sometimes twice in a single battle. Most fun I've had playing BLM in a party ^.^

I've never seen a PLD use Cover in an exp party so far. Whenever I've seen DRK use Souleater, PLD fired Sentinel beforehand.

People try to be islands in this game and it's all so much more fun and effective if you can maximize all the ways you can work together. Cliche` perhaps.

I try sending /tells to other DD to SC with me and update me on TP, but more times than not, they just tell me it's not worth the effort, "waste of TP", or because we have no BLM to MB. Excuse du jour.

Thank you for your understanding.
My first job was WHM, so I understand the hate on the WHM for cure spells.
I've been the RNG/WAR and RNG/NIN, so I understand the hate on it.
So, when I say that I understand a little about hate, I really do.
When I merit my RNG, I know when to use Barrage and Sidewinder, where I either kill the bird or it's darn close to dead.
My point is that there is a time/place for flexing that "e-peen"-
Like Kirin TP burns! hehe
Nothing says, "I DID UBER F-IN DAMAGE" than doing it on Kirin, in a safe TP burn environment- lol.

~Yote

I have WHM, BRD, SAM, and PLD 75, dinged in that order, so that gives me a pretty broad perspective on hate control and other management issues.

I have pretty extensive experience on them all in both EXP and Endgame situations, and I lowman a lot when I can, too.

I have two characters on the same account, Aramina and Darkmoose (in case someone doesn't believe that I have SAM and PLD). It's a long story why I have two, but I've had two so long that I'd never go back now.

Being a WHM before everything else has affected the way that I view all other jobs, because as the WHM, I took it seriously as my job to do whatever was necessary to make the party succeed.

Often times this means being harsh with people who are too stupid or selfish to see that they are hurting the other people around them to satisfy whatever personal needs they have.

I will take a 15k/hr merit party that is fun and mellow over a 20k/hr merit party where people are wanting to kill each other and crap like that. I know how to get down and beat the crap out of stuff, and I love doing it, but I take a lot more pride in my WHM skills than I ever would in any damage numbers that I can put out.

I've seen Cover only once, and only because I asked for it.
This is why I think everyone should be required to play as a tank, a healer, and a DD under demanding circumstances at some point. Pissed me off no end when I was leveling WHM and somebody died because the puller ignored my "No MP!" calls. Look out for your fellow party members and they'll look out for you.

i don't know why tanks don't use cover. it's an amazing ability that save a good 150+ mp healing the DD... i use it every single party i'm in because you need it. only using hate pulling tools doesn't cut it. If a tank wants to b taking 99% of the damage like they're supposed to, they need to use every tool in their arsenal.
I also cure the DDs to pull hate back. other PLDs at least do that don't they...