Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-01-07 13:39:52  
The only down side for it is that the cast time is a little long. 3 seconds. But this does mean that you can start in full fast cast then go to enmity/recast. Also, 25 MP cost. quite reasonable.

EDIT: Oh, and should you ever need to maintain hate on a pet(happens sometimes, like if charm gets you on MR) You have soporific, sheep song, geist wail, and stinking gas at your disposal. All player centered AoE and 320 CE/VE.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2014-01-07 13:44:47  
If you're using gearswap, you can precast/midcast anything regardless of cast time.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-01-07 13:50:11  
I'm aware of that. But for those of use who haven't made that particular leap, it's a limitation we still have to consider.

I have at least started working with lua. But I won't actually use gearswap till I can duplicate the majority of the functionality in my XMLs.
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-01-07 15:01:01  
Great info, thanx guys.
 Ragnarok.Arcane
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By Ragnarok.Arcane 2014-01-07 15:52:59  
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »
I forgot how low of a recast blank gaze had, going to have to try /blu out next time. Also does /run reduce AI damage? Didn't know if it counted as light damage or just straight non elemental.

It is unclear right now whether AI is non-elemental breath damage or light, I would love to see some testing on this. Any RUNs want to hop in on this?!

In either case, Vallation will provide extra mitigation on top of any MDT for her light elemental spells.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-01-07 16:19:55  
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »
I forgot how low of a recast blank gaze had, going to have to try /blu out next time. Also does /run reduce AI damage? Didn't know if it counted as light damage or just straight non elemental.
Wow, did you edit in the arrogance question or did my eyes just glaze over it? In any case I totally missed it, sorry.

Ragnarok.Arcane said: »
It is unclear right now whether AI is non-elemental breath damage or light, I would love to see some testing on this. Any RUNs want to hop in on this?!

In either case, Vallation will provide extra mitigation on top of any MDT for her light elemental spells.
Pretty much this. I *Think* Vallation is helping vs AI dmg, But it varies so damn much anyway it's hard to say for certain. I've seen anywhere from 700 dmg to 3k. -.-

So, in my last few runs I've been locking in a light sachet hoping for a lucky absorb proc to prove the element. But with the proc rates on sachets, it's not a very effective method.

I have however verified that Vallation works on breaths. As the description when the ability is used specifically mentions spells... But the JA description just says elemental dmg. I felt it needed to be confirmed.

Although, it appears the vallation is a bit gimped /RUN, as the reductions I got from 2 runes was only -20% or 10% per rune. Rather than RUN main's -15% per rune.

I also verified that sachets can proc on breath dmg. To make certain it was even possible to get a proc. lol.

And what the hell, Arc? You were Fafnir? /It was you! It was you all along! o.o cat.gif
[+]
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-01-07 19:40:21  
Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
Ragnarok.Fafnir said: »
Otomi/cetl belt/pak NQ/HQ coming out on top for lv102 chapuli with no buffs on. If there are circumstances under which Enif Corazza wins, I would be interested to know

I'm getting this set beating Pak/Cetl combinations.

ItemSet 318005

And ya Martel I'm not sure what's wrong with the cure equation I was using :(. Anyone see what I did wrong? Would be nice to know the actual expected cure values for cure4 with each set, and the respective enmity gain from each using each set.

Did you change the pak corselet stat to the +1 one that are in game ? Those on the spreadsheet are the one before the ilvl update it seems.
 Phoenix.Dramatica
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2014-01-07 20:15:05  
Someone needs to go RUN to an EV for science!
 Phoenix.Dramatica
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2014-01-07 20:35:42  
fwiw, spirits within doesn't get reduced, dunno if you could consider AI to be an aoe spirits of sorts.
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-01-07 20:36:07  
Asura.Ccl said: »
Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
Ragnarok.Fafnir said: »
Otomi/cetl belt/pak NQ/HQ coming out on top for lv102 chapuli with no buffs on. If there are circumstances under which Enif Corazza wins, I would be interested to know

I'm getting this set beating Pak/Cetl combinations.

ItemSet 318005

And ya Martel I'm not sure what's wrong with the cure equation I was using :(. Anyone see what I did wrong? Would be nice to know the actual expected cure values for cure4 with each set, and the respective enmity gain from each using each set.

Did you change the pak corselet stat to the +1 one that are in game ? Those on the spreadsheet are the one before the ilvl update it seems.

Ha! Changed it. Now I have Pak handily winning.
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-01-07 20:40:54  
Also adding 2 DA augment on Cizin hands/legs come ahead of ares for me, but that can be very annoying to get with decent pdt.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-01-07 21:27:38  
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
If you're using gearswap, you can precast/midcast anything regardless of cast time.
not quite true, since packet injection relies on the game sending outgoing packets to begin with and they're on a 300-350ms interval, any job with significant fast cast still needs to keep that in mind

spells shorter than .4s effective won't reliably get midcast, translates to 2s base casttime with capped fc(which is actually quite a few spells.. if your latency isn't superb then 2s flat casttime won't fire either)
[+]
 Phoenix.Cliamain
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By Phoenix.Cliamain 2014-01-07 21:56:27  
Enif Still has it's uses in High acc sets right? Can't see how you could go wrong with it.
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-01-07 22:01:47  
Phoenix.Cliamain said: »
Enif Still has it's uses in High acc sets right? Can't see how you could go wrong with it.
Pak +1 got more acc and same haste so I doubt it.
 Phoenix.Cliamain
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By Phoenix.Cliamain 2014-01-08 01:43:45  
Asura.Ccl said: »
Phoenix.Cliamain said: »
Enif Still has it's uses in High acc sets right? Can't see how you could go wrong with it.
Pak +1 got more acc and same haste so I doubt it.

Don't know where you're seeing 19 Acc is more than 23 Acc. From what i've been seeing acc is needed in every slot as high as you can get it. Just saying.
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-01-08 01:50:58  
19acc + 10dex > 23acc.
 Phoenix.Cliamain
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By Phoenix.Cliamain 2014-01-08 02:12:35  
Ah right, over looked that Dex on it.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-01-08 08:32:13  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
If you're using gearswap, you can precast/midcast anything regardless of cast time.
not quite true, since packet injection relies on the game sending outgoing packets to begin with and they're on a 300-350ms interval, any job with significant fast cast still needs to keep that in mind

spells shorter than .4s effective won't reliably get midcast, translates to 2s base casttime with capped fc(which is actually quite a few spells.. if your latency isn't superb then 2s flat casttime won't fire either)

This isn't actually true for GS. I don't have the knowledge behind HOW it works but you can precast a stone 1 with 80% FC and still get your midcast in before the spell goes off. Hell you can even detect an insta-cast before it happens and precast potency gear.

I know being packet based means it gets extra info and does not rely on the slow game to send things (it sends packets itself rather than inserting lines in to the outgoing buffer of the game) but that second one *** with my understanding of how these things could possibly work but that is the information I've seen on it.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-01-08 09:15:50  
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
This isn't actually true for GS. I don't have the knowledge behind HOW it works but you can precast a stone 1 with 80% FC and still get your midcast in before the spell goes off. Hell you can even detect an insta-cast before it happens and precast potency gear.

I know being packet based means it gets extra info and does not rely on the slow game to send things (it sends packets itself rather than inserting lines in to the outgoing buffer of the game) but that second one *** with my understanding of how these things could possibly work but that is the information I've seen on it.
i know how it works and i wrote a near identical plugin for ashita well before gs existed

it may be possible to occasionally get midcast on in time for stone1, but windower only adds outgoing packets when the client sends packets out(they're appended to the chunk, not sent out the instant the plugin wants to).. you can use /assist or a stupid command like /ra <me> to force the game to send packets, but the game will only do it once per second

sample timeline

:00:00.000 - Status update
:00:00.300 - Status update
:00:00.400 - Outgoing spell
:00:00.500 - Server confirms spell started, gearswap queues equip packets
:00:00.600 - Status update, equip packets send

in this case, the swap is 100ms after the spell started

:00:00.000 - Status update
:00:00.200 - outgoing spell
:00:00.300 - Status update
:00:00.310 - Server confirms spell started, gearswap queues equip packets
:00:00.600 - Status update, equip packets send

in this case, the swap is 290ms after the spell started

instant cast spells have the start/end packet sent at once so i can promise that it's completely impossible to get precast/midcast on them

spells shorter than 400ms will always have a chance of the outgoing being too late to take effect, unless you force it by triggering a dummy packet(but that's generally done for the spell starting step to ensure precast works and the game only allows one queue/second so you can't do it for both steps
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-01-08 09:49:20  
Byrth's info post on BG

Having some knowledge of how this works, you may interpret it differently but perhaps Byrth or someone working on lua can correct or confirm my understanding of how this works but as far as I understand it, GS does not sit around and wait for the game to send the packets.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-01-08 09:52:31  
midcast - When an incoming action packet (that codes an action) hits the incoming chunk event.

(barring the fact i always idle in windower channel and i'm the person who explained the use of the dummy command to byrth in the first place..)

the future method is interesting, though it's probably not going to work because chunks have a max size and throwing 32 equip packets will likely be over it.. pretty amazing if not, though
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-01-08 10:00:44  
going to admit i might be wrong here and spend the next hour adjusting my plugin to test it, that's really exciting
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-01-08 10:07:09  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
midcast - When an incoming action packet (that codes an action) hits the incoming chunk event.
I don't pretend to know how all this stuff works on the server level so I have no idea what you mean by this or what it has to do with the current topic ^^; sorry but it's lost on me.

Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
(barring the fact i always idle in windower channel and i'm the person who explained the use of the dummy command to byrth in the first place..)
I also have no idea how this info is getting routed or who tells who what. Just my interpretation of Byrth's statement was that they somehow made it so they could precast and midcast with no notable delay. My understanding was that this would mean you could use a precast setup (this is always fastcast with spells) and then get your potency midcast in before the spell goes off.

This kinda think would be incredibly useful for whm cures and even faster stuns that gain the benefit of midcasted macc gear or something.

Now if I'm completely off the mark here, what does he mean by midcasting stone 1?

The whole insta-cast thing seemed unreal to me in the first place and my knowledge of networking says it has to be impossible but then I thought maybe they found some kinda indicator packet that would let you know and then lua could cancel the outgoing precast gear and send midcast instead. I dunno, that conversation was in a skype call with my brother and I have no records or links to the info so perhaps I was off on that one.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-01-08 10:09:42  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
going to admit i might be wrong here and spend the next hour adjusting my plugin to test it, that's really exciting

/shrug. Either way, let me know. I'm surprised by this possible change but also a bit worried about how it could work and what risks may be involved. Faster cures are awesome but I'd have to admit that if it was at all likely to get my accounts tagged, I'd hesitate.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-01-08 10:11:01  
The method my plugin uses (and what gearswap used at the time of that post, not sure about now?) is this:

precast
-Catch outgoing action packet, stop it.
-Queue equip packets
-Queue the outgoing packet you stopped.

midcast
-Catch incoming packet where the server says 'starting ranged/magic/whatever'
-Queue equip packets

idk what gearswap does for idle, mine triggers on endcasts and every 3 seconds

The idea he proposed is

precast
-Catch outgoing action packet, stop it
-Queue precast equip packets
-Queue the outgoing packet you stopped
-Queue midcast equip packets

that way, server puts on your precast, processes spell start, then processes your midcast gear so you effectively never see your precast gear locally but still gain all the effects of it on a near instantaneous manner.. i still don't know if it'd work on instant casts, that depends how the server processes them(are they instant or just 1/1024).

it's simple, but remarkably effective if there are no ill effects associated with sending out a single chunk with 32 equip packets and an action

whether it'd get you tagged is purely based on how much you think SE cares about that sort of thing, making a filter that'd catch all users instantly would be a very easy job

gonna go hide now before neo lynches me for derailing pld with packets, but totally missed that development and apologize for the outdated information
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-01-08 10:18:06  
If you look at this post Byth was even able to assign different precast and midcast gear to WS, and get the expected difference in dmg. I.E. the ws dmg indicated the WS were hitting in the midcast gear, not the precast.

EDIT: so far we have one report of this working on quick magic. Me asking about it, and a few posts later JSHidaka tests it.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-01-08 10:19:43  
Yea, it makes perfect sense now, I just completely missed the development where they thought to put midcast in the same chunk as precast.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-01-08 10:23:34  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
gonna go hide now before neo lynches me for derailing pld with packets, but totally missed that development and apologize for the outdated information
If this works, I don't think anyone will mind.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-01-08 10:26:13  
Also, I think Such an improvement to precast/midcast is relevant to PLD. Most fastcast gear is low DEF low PDT. Using this you spend virtually 0 time in that gear. Now whether your potency gear for x spell has better defenses in another matter.

But I feel we can safely say that new gearswap functions are a valid PLD subject.
 Phoenix.Cliamain
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By Phoenix.Cliamain 2014-01-08 14:40:26  
Can someone post the spreed sheet info for Pak > Enif? I can't seem to get mine to work.
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