Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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2010-06-21
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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Asura.Antaress
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By Asura.Antaress 2011-05-31 13:59:51  
Quote:
seriously: Is a good guide but only for veteran people, no very helpfull for new paladins or who are thinking on level the job, you are talking about many "end game" gear.


I disagree, just unlocked PLD around 10 hours ago and found this extremely helpful! Thanks!
[+]
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-05-31 14:00:27  
Size differences may explain why I was getting lower shield block rate against Hydra (using 90 aegis) than the studies that Showmo did. Mostly because I find it hard to believe that Aegis wasn't block rate capped against a lvl 80 enemy.

Would be frustrating if things like size/mob type affected proc rate.

The last few tests I'd like to see done though:

Aegis/Ochain uncapped tests, with adding shield skill to see how much the block rate increases as you add shield skill. It would be nice to finally determine a metric for shield skill and block rate.

That and nailing down just how much block rate Reprisal adds, and if it goes past the cap.

Anyone feel like taking on part of these studies? I can work on some Aegis tests now that I'm unbanned here.. again.

edit: Also, about the guide being too "end game" - Knowledge of enmity generation and what gear sets you should be aiming for, as well as understanding the game mechanics behind damage (magic and melee) is paramount to any Pld. If you're looking for a "use this gear from lvl 30-90", then go to Zam. This thread is for people that want to figure out everything there is to know about Pld and help each other be the best we can be.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-05-31 14:26:24  
It just occurred to me:

Perhaps I shouldn't treat Shield Block Rate as some easily capped thing where you're close to the cap against even matches, but rather treat it like evasion:

When you're fighting a mob that is your level, your base hit rate (when your acc = enemy evasion) is 75%.

Adding level correction to this, (4acc/level), and a enemy that is lvl 80 trying to hit a lvl 90 player would have a hit rate of:

75%+(-40)*.5 = 55%.

So thinking of shield block rate in the same way: If you're blocking against an enemy your level, you have a base block rate (let's say 75% of your capped block rate). Adding shield skill makes it so you block like your a higher level, so you move closer to your capped block rate.

If the Aegis block rate cap is 75% (at 90). Then the base block rate for a mob that is lvl 90 should be 75%*75% = 56%. Adding enough shield skill to block like a lvl 94 Pld should make your block rate 56%+(16)*.5 = 64%.

Taking that back to my Hydra tests:

Base Block rate(at even lvl) + level correction block rate (shield skill included) = Block rate observed.

Block rate observed was 69%.

Level Correction was 10 levels + 5~6 levels of shield skill (about 32 skill).

Using the evasion degradation equation, the added block rate should be (4 points per lvl*15 levels)*.5 = 30% block rate increase.

That would put the base block rate for the EM at 40%, which we know is too low.

So that means that lvl correct/shield skill does not have the same linear increase as evasion/accuracy.

However, if you change the multiplier a bit:

Multiply by .25% instead of .5%.

(4 points per lvl*15 lvls)*.25 = 15% block rate. (Or just 1% per lvl >.>)

Adding 15% block rate from lvl correction to a base block rate of 56% for an even match = 69% (the block rate I got for Hydra).

This is just a hypothesis, but the TLDR version:

Shield block rate may be a function of current level and shield skill (as we already know), where as the equation is:


Block Rate = 75% * Your Shield's Capped Rate + (4*LvL correction, including shield gear)*.25


Or just:

Block Rate = 75% * Your Shield's Capped Rate + (1% per lvl difference).


This obviously needs to be confirmed, and the variables can be tweaked with data, but I think this is a good starting place for block rate tests.

Also, I'm not sure how to work Ochain into that equation, as you'd have to set the capped block rate above 100% to maintain 100% block rate via enemies that are VT+.

There is also the added factor of mob size possibly affecting block rates..
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By Blazed1979 2011-05-31 15:28:12  
I really think size does play a role. Ochain vs Briareause, and again block rates were good, but not spectacular. several WS's got through ochain's invincible defense taking pld into orange HP with full +2 set and 30% pdt.

BUT, big but here, neither fanatics nor fool's powder negate some of briareus's tp moves for some odd reason. didn't know this till today.

With regards to reprisal, I did a test way back when reprisal first came out. it was causing aegis to block near current ochain rate but was fixed within 2 weeks time with an emergency maint. was a ninja nerf, and only Aegis PLDs at the time would have any recollection of it. today, reprisal seems to add anywhere between 10-15% additional block rate, often bringing Aegis with 414 shield skill vs Lv80 mobs to the 75% cap rate.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-05-31 15:36:20  
Briareus has moves that do set damage amounts, so that really isn't a good example.

However, as said before: Another Aegis Pld did lvl 90 tests and had 75% block rate against lvl 85ish chigoes, which would lend credence to the size theory.

That combined with Ochain Plds being capped on block rate on Chigoes/Mandies/etc, yet uncapped for Wyrms and such (regardless of lvl) may give us an idea of one of the additional factors in shield block rate.

As for reprisal: Ya I just want to get down a specific % increase, rather than our own guesses.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-01 06:28:16  
if you PM me how to use spellcast lol (i've been using windower macros for the last god knows how long and never bothered learning spellcast)
I will go out with my 90 Aegis and get my friend (90 ochain) and do any tests you want in any gear set for no more than 2 hours. (that's as long as my friend is going to agree to be a punching bag)

I've done fine without spellcast my entire ffxi career. but with all the new gear coming out, and the old gear i trashed, I'm thinking its a good reason to learn something new.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-01 09:45:29  
Download spellcast.

Put it in your init file so it autoloads when you start FFXI.

Male a .xml file named Blazed_PLD.xml (or whatever your in game name is). Place that in your plugins -> spellcast folder (do this for any job you want a script for).

Copy my spellcast in this thread into that xml.

Change the gear to what you have.

Remove your windower macros and just make your macros do what you want:

i.e. doesn't need to be //bind f8 or anything (not sure what windower macros call for anymore). Just do /ma reprisal <me> (or ja, or ws, or whatever). Spellcast will now automatically swap you to the correct set for each spell, JA, action, then swap you back to your idle set.

Spellcast will also allow you to fast type commands:

Instead of having to do /ma "Cure IV" PersonwithObnoxiouslyLongName

You can just do //cure4 Pers (typing even part of their name will target that person for the action).

The only thing to learn would be how to familizarize yourself with my "groups". As the set you idle in varies based on what group you're in (/war, /nin, kiting, melee, pdt, mdt).

You can make a few different macros:
/sc group Pld_War
/sc group Pld_Nin
/sc group Melee
/sc group Kite
etc

and just hit those macros as you want to swap between your groups. Spellcast will do the rest and keep you in idle/tp/engaged and swap in the prefered precast/midcast/post cast equipment.

However, spellcast isn't needed for any of these tests, just KParser. Spellcast however makes you significantly more efficient your job.

As for helping with testing:

Would require you to find a mob that you're not capped on shield block (wearing no shield gear), and get as long of a parse just getting pounded as you can (don't use defender, phalanx, etc).

Then once we extrapolate your block rate, add shield gear and redo test, to determine % increase.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-01 14:12:56  
thank you very much indeed.

1 hour each long enough? (with/without shield)
and yeah, I wanted to learn about spellcast because it seems everyone uses it, and i'm the only old school fool still using alt/ctrl 1-0 for all my different scenarios. think i am developing carpultunnel syndrom from 10 years of punhcing macros lol.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-01 15:37:14  
The longer each test is the better obviously. But anything you can do helps.

As for spellcast, once you start using it you'll wonder how you ever played without it. You'll also realize just how more efficient you are now.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-06-01 16:27:15  
Regarding mob size vs. block rate. Personally, I've never noticed any correlation.

Not that I have any controlled test parses, seeing as it never occurred to me that it could be a factor. <,<;

But over the course of 3~4 Fafnir solos, an couple of nidhogg fights, and a Jormy, I never saw a single melee hit or flail that hit hard enough to be unblocked(with Ochain).

While Faf an Niddhog are lower lvl, Jormy is the same lvl as Vrtra. I'm not sure how you were getting a lower block rate. Vrtra moves around when he pops adds, any chance he got out of your block field? Unlikely, I know. But that's the only explanation I can think of for our differing experiences. Unless there's an additional block influencing factor that differs between Jormy and Vrtra...

About Briareus. Trebuchet, Mercurial Strike, and Colossal Slam are all unblockable. Trebuchet being a ranged attack(GDI SE...) and the other two being magical. So he can hurt you anyway. Unless you're saying that it was grand slam or power attack that hurt...?

Anyway, I'm not denying the possibility of a mob size mod on block rate, just stating that I haven't noticed a lower block rate on large model mobs.

Much testing is called for. Maybe I'll go visit Vrtra...
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-01 16:49:25  
apparently reprisal block rate increase isnt static and depends on either divine magic or enhancing magic.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-01 16:53:14  
its very possible that vrtra's moving around so much (what a stupid mob) could be the reason. Another could be the sleep, and getting nomnomed on 1 time for a critical and then waking up.

Wasn't aware of Bri's moves actually being both ranged and Magical. Assumed they were all Physical melee ws's. and no, wasnt grand slam. that barely does any dmg at all, even to my mnk.
 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2011-06-02 02:04:24  
Vrtra might cause problems with the parse, for reasons mentioned, also his summons cast annoying magic spells. Jorm i think too, considering when it flies you would be taking damage most likely and the parser still counts them as hits. On the other hand you could probably hold Cerb forever tail tanking him but lower level then the grand wyrms. If i had read this a couple hours earlier i would go parse but i killed him cause i was extremely bored.

Thanks for the spellcast example though, i was sad deleting defending ring so many times, but im using it.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-02 07:07:53  
doubt I could solo hold vrtra with just a whm and an ochain pld anyways lol. wasn't thinking of vrtra for tests. Maybe Byakko would be a decent candidate. only thing to watch out for would be banshiga3
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2011-06-02 07:32:02  
Blazed1979 said:
doubt I could solo hold vrtra with just a whm and an ochain pld anyways lol. wasn't thinking of vrtra for tests. Maybe Byakko would be a decent candidate. only thing to watch out for would be banshiga3

I was "afraid" banishga3 would be an issue aswell, but it resists alot.. Dont worry, it's a very very harmless nm now >_>
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-02 10:27:50  
Problem is that you'll be likely capped or near capped on Byakko block rate so shield skill tests won't be that useful.

Maybe detectors in Graub if they're high enough level, or something else that may con tough+ to you at 90.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-02 10:36:48  
Oh just wanted to verify, as expected, Burtgang PDT goes to at least 66% (can only test 50% + 16% at the moment). Uncertain if the actual "PDT Cap" will remain uncapped or be 87.5% like bst/smn pets. However we can expect to reach at least 70% PDT with 99 Burt + 50% PDT gear at 99.

As for uses of the two: I've found Aegis extremely useful since the update (in Neo-Dynamis and Voidwatch, as well as for straight tanking AV, rather than zerging). Some of the new augment gear has allowed me to get some more Spell Interupt in my casting sets as well, so the non 100% block rate of Aegis is less of a burden.

Sentinel's Scherzo + Earthen Armor + Aegis makes Pld pretty much immortal on pretty much anything in the game. Don't even both locking AV's meteor anymore.

However Ochain still dominates for things like Voidwrought (Iron Giant moves get blocked by Ochain), large crowd control (tanking many mobs at once), and some of the other nasty mobs. I however don't plan on doing Ochain until they fix VNM upgrade rates. Because there is literally nothing I hate in the game more than VNMs.
 Bahamut.Vagrua
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By Bahamut.Vagrua 2011-06-04 01:33:43  
Phoenix.Neosutra said:
Oh just wanted to verify, as expected, (in Neo-Dynamis and Voidwatch, as well as for straight tanking AV, rather than zerging).
Could you record a video of your linkshell taking down AV through the straight tank way or link me to one if it exists?
Sorry for bumping, just want to see it with my own eyes.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-04 16:28:58  
Ill fraps one on Monday.

But I'd say Sentinel's Scherzo and Earthen Armor are more of an influence on that fight than Aegis.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-05 03:53:35  
I'm going to try and word this as carefully as possible as to not leave any room for any misunderstandings.

After seeing Aegis and Ochain in same situations, same mobs, same support, my verdict is thus:

If you had to choose the single most game changing item for PLD, it would be Ochain. Alone this single item improves your PLD's tanking ability by at least 50-60%.

Having said that, in the absence of both shields, Aegis is a wiser choice.

Why?
Aegis's 75% Block rate, combined with dmg reduction on blocks, as well as the availability of -spell interupt gear/merits/ minimum support allows Aegis to mimic Ochain's effectiveness. *MIMIC*
It will come within a -10% spell interupt rate of an Ochain, which is the major appeal of an ochain. MAJOR, not ONLY. However it will take less dmg even on physical attacks.
Combined with Aegis's ability to go beyond the -MDT% cap, and the potential for mainhanding a Burtgang when you need it, you start to see which shield provides more utility.

That's not to take away anything from Ochain. It really is a beast. and as I said earlier, it is the single *SINGLE* most effective enhancement a PLD can attain. However, Aegis combined with other gear, will outperform it.

EDIT: Also, Aegis can do the whole WS zerg thing as well. I'll post a video of my "lolaegis almace zorro blade ventures" as soon as I'm done with Almace. I doubt anyone wants to see me spam circle blades vs 13 detectors in Altepa none stop.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-05 12:58:33  
To be fair, you're no where near 75% block rate on anything that you'd actually bring Pld for with Aegis.

Additionally, Ochain shines greatly on large crowd control and fast attacking mobs, but beyond that it isn't a 50-60% improvement over other options (20-30%).

Spell interupt definitely makes a HUGE difference (near 70% now in my casting sets), but still wont allow you to tank 6-10 mobs without being interupted (until we get to near 100% spell interupt).

The difference however, between an Aegis Pld and non Aegis Pld in some of the new content is pretty amazing however.

We'll see how SE changes Pld over the next few updates, as that will most likely tip the scales each way again.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-06 04:14:24  
Phoenix.Neosutra said:
To be fair, you're no where near 75% block rate on anything that you'd actually bring Pld for with Aegis.

Additionally, Ochain shines greatly on large crowd control and fast attacking mobs, but beyond that it isn't a 50-60% improvement over other options (20-30%).

Spell interupt definitely makes a HUGE difference (near 70% now in my casting sets), but still wont allow you to tank 6-10 mobs without being interupted (until we get to near 100% spell interupt).

The difference however, between an Aegis Pld and non Aegis Pld in some of the new content is pretty amazing however.

We'll see how SE changes Pld over the next few updates, as that will most likely tip the scales each way again.

I've been testing it out a bit. I don't seem to have trouble maintaining 69-75% block rate on Dragua.(I usually smite dragua on mnk, but after 49 scales, I'm a bit bored of MNK on Dragua)
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-06 09:40:52  
Would like to see that parse... or are you eyeballing it?

Terror alone would make that analogous.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-06 10:38:28  
By the way, what do you guys think SE is going to do with the cover adjustment, divine emblem "damage bonus", and shield bash "damage bonus"?

Extending duration of cover? Enmity lock during cover?

I've been hoping for a "decoy" (enmity lock) job ability for a while, even if short duration.
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By Phoenix.Vael 2011-06-06 10:48:40  
Doesn't sound job-changing in any way... waiting to see details.

I'd like to see DE also add damage to non-damage spells so that Flash can be upped b/c using Holy isn't realistic in non-Abyssea. Though it could become realistic if the damage is there.

Don't think SB matters... would much rather see a Shield Bash JT operating like a kick attacks of some sort.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-06 12:12:52  
Phoenix.Neosutra said:
Would like to see that parse... or are you eyeballing it?

Terror alone would make that analogous.
just eyeballing. Terror isn't that much of an issue if u don't zerg it. I get terrored 4-5x as often as mnk than I do as lolPLD.
 Bismarck.Kyokaku
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By Bismarck.Kyokaku 2011-06-06 12:23:51  
I've never owned Aegis. But this is what i know.

Ochain has made me be able to tank things in ways i couldn't ever do before.

I don't even bother with /nin anymore. Even on truly difficult things, like the T4 voidwatch NM, (in comparison to lol abyssea) my mages never has issues keeping me alive with /war.

I have parsed 96.1% blockrate on ochain on almost any HNM, and 100% (99.982 %) on exp mobs con to T (grauberg S - Crab).

I havent been interuppted while casting in weeks.

I actually had 20 mandies on me in desert, and i casted raise lol.

Aegis is useful in more situations, but ochain is extremely more useful in the situations it is better in.

Aegis blockrate 75%? The paladin in my LS with aegis parsed 51.11% on things i got 96.1% on.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-06-06 12:30:23  
Bismarck.Kyokaku said:
I've never owned Aegis. But this is what i know.

Ochain has made me be able to tank things in ways i couldn't ever do before.

I don't even bother with /nin anymore. Even on truly difficult things, like the T4 voidwatch NM, (in comparison to lol abyssea) my mages never has issues keeping me alive with /war.

I have parsed 96.1% blockrate on ochain on almost any HNM, and 100% (99.982 %) on exp mobs con to T (grauberg S - Crab).

I havent been interuppted while casting in weeks.

I actually had 20 mandies on me in desert, and i casted raise lol.

Aegis is useful in more situations, but ochain is extremely more useful in the situations it is better in.

Aegis blockrate 75%? The paladin in my LS with aegis parsed 51.11% on things i got 96.1% on.

51% thats all I got? lameo
 Bismarck.Kyokaku
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By Bismarck.Kyokaku 2011-06-06 12:33:55  
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51% thats all I got? lameo

You spike around from 45-63%, i think status's and crap arent being accounted for
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-06 12:51:18  
1. Aegis CAPS @ 75% block rate. Doesn't mean "Aegis has a minimum of 75% block rate"
2. What was he fighting, what lvl mob, what lvl aegis, what lvl shield skill, gear, casts reprisal, doesnt cast reprisal, and a bunch of other factors.
3. No one doubts ochain's superiority in blocking.
edit:
4. Aegis isn't going to fall down and crumble when AV spams Meteor.
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