Thief Merits

言語: JP EN DE FR
2010-06-21
New Items
users online
フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Thief » Thief Merits
Thief Merits
Offline
Posts: 595
By charlo999 2015-01-06 20:41:54  
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Why are we saying feint vs Ambush when you get both and it's not a decision of one over the other?

And the argument over feint is that any more merits than 1/5 (added -40 evasion) doesn't help any mob ive seen in game if your already dropping evasion by 50%.
Its like stacking acc gear when already capped.
 Cerberus.Conagh
Offline
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: onagh
Posts: 3189
By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-01-06 20:50:46  
charlo999 said: »
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Why are we saying feint vs Ambush when you get both and it's not a decision of one over the other?

And the argument over feint is that any more merits than 1/5 (added -40 evasion) doesn't help any mob ive seen in game if your already dropping evasion by 50%.
Its like stacking acc gear when already capped.

Either way you still have both even if you did 5/5 in both categories.

So you dont 5/5 Feint for TH chance increase? That seems counter productive, what is such a good option instead in this category not to obtain the +100% chance of TH gaining a level?
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
Offline
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: valli
Posts: 1420
By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-06 20:57:02  
It'd be nice if it were that cut and dried. You have to choose between party THF and soloing THF.

Soloing thf kinda must have aura steal, and gets zero use out of ambush.

Party event thf gets zero use out of aura steal (well some) and (more) use out of ambush. (but not alot)
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 6137
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-06 20:58:00  
Ambush 5/5 gives 15 Acc and 5% Triple Attack from the back with Plunderer's Vest +1 on.

Feint merits past 1/5 give a boost to a mostly meaningless stat (TH levels >8) and increase Feint debuff potency even further. As an interesting sidenote, Feint and Distract do not stack and Feint does not overwrite. Actually, I'm not entirely sure Feint overwrites any other form of Evasion Down.

Assassin's Charge gives a mostly meaningless boost that probably isn't worth the activation time, which is why Ternary Flourish was such a non-starter.

Aura Steal is fairly unique and difficult to put an objective value on.




In most of the fights I've done recently with THFs, like Unity NMs, it's pretty much pop -> Someone makes a darkness skillchain -> THF closes it with Rudra's for 20-40k + 40-99k skillchain and the monster dies. The THF rarely has hate before they do their Rudra's. If they TA it, they rarely have hate after it either. For longer fights, of course they will cap hate like everyone else, but how many current fights do you really use Aura Steal on?

Ambush is a viable option that makes Plunderer's Vest +1 easily the best TP body from the back. If you don't care about additional TH levels past 8, I could easily see dropping Feint merits down to 1/5 and raising Ambush to 4/5. If you don't care about having a 100% double-absorb rate with Aura Steal, which has limited uses tbqh, you could drop it to 4/5 and go L5 Ambush, L4 Aura Steal, and L1 Feint.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 595
By charlo999 2015-01-06 21:01:45  
conagh
Well it just doubles your base chance of an increase so an extra what 2-8% chance?
Pretty small.
I actually get good use of Aura 5/5 with head for 2 buffs as ive said. But that's just personal pref. and I have just 1/5 in AC if i'm WS closing.
Either way we can agree ambush is good 1/5 feint is good.
The rest is personal pref.
 Cerberus.Conagh
Offline
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: onagh
Posts: 3189
By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-01-06 21:05:05  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
It'd be nice if it were that cut and dried. You have to choose between party THF and soloing THF.

Soloing thf kinda must have aura steal, and gets zero use out of ambush.

Party event thf gets zero use out of aura steal (well some) and (more) use out of ambush. (but not alot)

So now it's an argument over Group Play vs Solo Play? I can honestly say in all my time playing THF and soloing I have never encountered an instance where I unequivocally needed Aura Steal to clear / stay alive in certain content.

And as the listed scenario was Party play, arguing over "solo" situations isn't really all the conducive to a discussion over this type of event or therefore play style.

Not to mention the diminishing effect having trusts in your party has on your basis for "Aura Steal" as Ulmia casts finale and so does the RDM trusts along with Stun.

So we're talking instances like Salvage or Dynamis? The only NM's there that have any use for Aura steal spam the moves regardless and you have to eat w.e effect it is, now lets consider the bosses etc, you have the ability to drop most of these to 30% HP in a couple of WS (Reverse Flourish for 600 tp bully/sa etc).

Personally I would rather have the 5% TA and 5/5 Feint for Party stuff (because my job normally in an event party is to tag TH and build where possible) arguing I'm a DD that's my only job is dumb as you're their to increase drop rate, and this should be your first concern, Now granted there was a discussion that anything after TH7 provides next to nothing drop rate wise but an increase, is an increase and the content doesn't need us to be Super Epeen lets kill something in seconds (granted kill speed is always nice).

All we've really been able to see is that you're arguing merits for solo, and other's are arguing in a party situation.

Neither stance is wrong (although solo is loosing some ground due to factors) so why are you arguing over merits based on play style when it's exactly that, down to play style.

EDIT People posted after I replied.

Bryth seems to have hit the nail on the head.
Offline
Posts: 595
By charlo999 2015-01-06 21:14:31  
Can I just ask if anyone knows where the triple attack damage %+
goes in the rudras damage equation if I ACSAWS?
I sortta remember testing that the double att + damage didn't transfer to WS's on war ages ago. Dunno if that's true.
Offline
Posts: 90
By NeboJones 2015-01-06 22:26:53  
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
arguing I'm a DD that's my only job is dumb as you're their to increase drop rate, and this should be your first concern

To be frank, in my oppinion, arguing that building TH should be your first concern is dumb.

As a THF, being a relevant DD that can divert a significant percentage of WS damage to the tank (and/or close massive Skillchains in the process) should be your first concern.

Building TH level past 8 is only your first concern if you are a TH mule or an someone that doesn't understand how TH works.
[+]
 Cerberus.Kylos
Offline
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Kylos
Posts: 4295
By Cerberus.Kylos 2015-01-06 23:21:06  
Building TH is easier if you go all out. I always found this to be the case. The only time you wouldn't is if you were trying to get Savory Shanks off Behemoth, and then you would use low level daggers and keep spamming Sneak Attack + Feint whenever you can.

TH effectiveness can go up during melee hits (critical hits usually) and even on weaponskills. You can miss the log message for this as it can increase during weapon skills without you noticing. I have seen this happen so many times.

The rest of the time, Thief should be damage dealing. Treasure Hunter will go up naturally anyway, just start the fight with TH gear on. If the mob has enough HP the effectiveness will go up naturally. You don't really need to focus on it.

Anything past TH effectievness 9 is a very minimal increase. Yes, it's an incrwase, but trying everything in your power to get it up to 10 or 11, when you could just kill it and move on? It's counter productive.

You only want 11-12 effectiveness on rare and important drops, and those situations are very rare nowadays. In a place like Incursion or high tier battlefields, effectievness 9 is usually enough. It's easy enough to get 9-10 without even trying for it. As Thief is a viable DD, it is probably just as (if not more) important for a Thief to damage deal then it is to tag treasure hunter.

But yeah, I want to apologize because I revived this thread, and I was hoping it would be a good debate over the current options in endgame.

The one thing I did use Aura Steal for was Ice Spikes in Salvage. Aside from that I can't think of any other use for it, so i'm thinking of just getting rid altogether.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 517
By Davorin 2015-01-07 02:34:56  
NeboJones said: »
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
arguing I'm a DD that's my only job is dumb as you're their to increase drop rate, and this should be your first concern

To be frank, in my oppinion, arguing that building TH should be your first concern is dumb.

As a THF, being a relevant DD that can divert a significant percentage of WS damage to the tank (and/or close massive Skillchains in the process) should be your first concern.

Building TH level past 8 is only your first concern if you are a TH mule or an someone that doesn't understand how TH works.

You do realize that being there to increase drop rate and doing damage are not mutually exclusive? Believe it or not, you can do both.

It is naive to think though that someone is saving a party/alliance spot for a THF for something other than increasing the drop rate of something.
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
Offline
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: valli
Posts: 1420
By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-07 03:30:10  
Davorin said: »
It is naive to think though that someone is saving a party/alliance spot for a THF for something other than increasing the drop rate of something.

El Oh El. How is it back there in 2005? Do you still let the THF get the killshot? Does everyone turn so you get the drop?
 Cerberus.Tidis
MSPaint Winner
Offline
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: tidis
Posts: 3927
By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-01-07 04:21:16  
Davorin said: »
NeboJones said: »
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
arguing I'm a DD that's my only job is dumb as you're their to increase drop rate, and this should be your first concern

To be frank, in my oppinion, arguing that building TH should be your first concern is dumb.

As a THF, being a relevant DD that can divert a significant percentage of WS damage to the tank (and/or close massive Skillchains in the process) should be your first concern.

Building TH level past 8 is only your first concern if you are a TH mule or an someone that doesn't understand how TH works.

You do realize that being there to increase drop rate and doing damage are not mutually exclusive? Believe it or not, you can do both.

It is naive to think though that someone is saving a party/alliance spot for a THF for something other than increasing the drop rate of something.
Did you miss the Rudra's update? THF is one of the best DDs in the game right now.

But yes you can both DD and stack TH, full-timing TH gear won't decrease your DPS too much compared to going all out, especially in a high buff situation.
Offline
Posts: 90
By NeboJones 2015-01-07 09:26:58  
Davorin said: »
You do realize that being there to increase drop rate and doing damage are not mutually exclusive? Believe it or not, you can do both.

I'm not sure what your arguement is here but I'm not sure that I said they were mututally exclusive. As Kylos pointed out, if you are doing your job, it's going to go up naturally through melee and SA/TA WS anyway.

The argument is against the idea that a focus on building TH level should be your first concern. Most THF I find that do this geared/leveled THF "Just for TH," have other "REAL DD" jobs for which they reserve inventory space, and/or are not worth a DD slot in the first place (perpetuating the stigma, tbh). Imo, beyond tagging with full gear, TH should not really be a concern for a THF at all.

I see this a lot: "I'm on THF, I'm here for TH Onry" etc. To which I usually think "Of course you are. Your THF isn't even remotely prepared to DD this content. Look at your lack of gear, skill, merits, JPs, weapon choice, food, sub job, etc, etc."

Especially given that TH will go up naturally simply by DDing properly, TH procs are a secondary (relatively meaningless) concern at best. They are still going to happen anyway without any extra focus on your part.

Quote:
It is naive to think though that someone is saving a party/alliance spot for a THF for something other than increasing the drop rate of something.

It's mostly ignorance and job perception that permeate group leadership re: THF DD capability and/or the effectiveness of building TH levels that create this mind set you are talking about.

Case in point, even after this massive dagger update, it took badgering one of the group leaders I usually roll with for at least a couple of weeks to let me show him what a strong THF can actually do. He finally did, and all it took was one parse. I am generally one of the go-to BRDs for DMII in that group. Now they request my THF and it really has nothing to do with TH.
 Cerberus.Tidis
MSPaint Winner
Offline
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: tidis
Posts: 3927
By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-01-07 09:53:35  
NeboJones said: »
Davorin said: »
You do realize that being there to increase drop rate and doing damage are not mutually exclusive? Believe it or not, you can do both.

I'm not sure what your arguement is here but I'm not sure that I said they were mututally exclusive. And as Kylos poined out, if you are doing your job, it's going to go up naturally through melee and SA/TA WS anyway.

The argument is against the idea that building TH level should be your first concern. Most THF I find that do this geared/leveled THF "Just for TH," have other "REAL DD" jobs that the focus on, and are not worth a DD slot in the first place (perpetuating the stigma, tbh). Imo, beyond tagging with full gear, TH should not really be a concern for a THF at all. Especially given that it will go up naturally simply by DDing properly. It's a secondary something at best that is going to happen anyway.

Quote:
It is naive to think though that someone is saving a party/alliance spot for a THF for something other than increasing the drop rate of something.

It's mostly ignorance and perception that permiates group leadership re: THF DD capability and/or the effectiveness of building TH levels that create this mind set you are talking about.

Case in point, even after this massive update I badgered one of the group leaders I usually roll with for at least a couple of weaks to show him what a strong THF can actually do. All it took was one parse. I am generally one of the go-to BRDs for DMII. Now they request that I come THF. And it has nothing to do with TH.
I had a similar situation recently where we were doing Ceizak Delve and I was told to come my best DD and was suggested to come WAR, I said I might as well come THF since the Rudra's update it is stronger and gives TH, still took a lot of arguing to win my case so I parsed the whole thing, sort of to prove a point, ended up doing about 40% of the damage.
 Cerberus.Kylos
Offline
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Kylos
Posts: 4295
By Cerberus.Kylos 2015-01-07 13:10:37  
Yes, THF is better than DRK and WAR in most situations now (unless they have a Mythic, then who knows), and I hate it because DRK is my main job and I didn't build a Ragnarok to have it sit in my Mog Safe. Rudra's Storm is broken, and if you ain't using a THF to damage deal, then that THF must really suck and have no Rudra's.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 3475
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-01-08 17:55:19  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Yes, THF is better than DRK and WAR in most situations now (unless they have a Mythic, then who knows), and I hate it because DRK is my main job and I didn't build a Ragnarok to have it sit in my Mog Safe.

I wouldn't worry too much, DRK and WAR are due for a mega-buff of their own to bring them back from forgotten to top tier.

Anyway, this thread did make me remember to get rid of my 1/5 Assassin's Charge merits that I've had forever. I'm 5/5 Feint and 5/5 Aura Steal now.

I get that some people might argue for Ambush, fine. I personally don't like the positional requirement. On any long fight if you're a halfway decent THF, you're gonna end up having hate a lot of the time anyway. Anything that dies fast (say, fodder mobs in Incursion) is spinning so much that getting in position isn't reasonable in the first place. Anything solo where THF *is* still excellent thanks to farming with TH8+, Ambush is useless. I'm not really down with using the merits on something that will realistically give me a little bit of a buff at the beginning of longer single target fights.

On the other hand, Aura Steal is a pretty handy dispel on obnoxious moves in Salvage or other solo stuff. And 5/5 makes it a nice way to steal something like Protect if you're not 2boxing things. I actually use it, so meh... I'll keep it even if it's not world-changing.

And Feint, well, maybe it's not overly amazing either beyond the required 1/5. But whatever, I'll take the TH procs.
[+]
 Asura.Highwynn
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Highwynd
Posts: 725
By Asura.Highwynn 2015-01-12 21:16:05  
Not a thf but thinking of leveling it. I would think ambush would be a no brainer 5/5 and then some combo of feint and AC and aura steal. 15acc and 5TA from behind the mob seems pretty good if you're offhanding atoyac i'd assume since it has lower acc.
Log in to post.