Perle Really Better?

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2010-06-21
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Perle really better?
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 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2010-08-05 13:57:38  
Ifrit.Jurai said:
the str and attack doesn't matter for tping

I normally try to troll the pants off any of the BG faboy types who come in with bandwagon or "accepted as truth" statements without backing anything up. I'm a firm believer in "if you test a parse and have numbers to back it up do what works".

Sadly after this,

I couldn't troll or white knight at all. I feel worseoff for reading this statement alone than anything to ever come out of gaia/malekith/etc's mouth on this forum.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2010-08-05 14:04:51  
After further reading through the thread i now feel bad and it really does seem like Jurai just doesnt understand instead of the misinformed stubborn person i expected.
 Pandemonium.Anookulchandra
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By Pandemonium.Anookulchandra 2010-08-06 09:31:08  
Lol i like how *** boy makes a little vid and no one even cares cause after how bad sam raped him. (which he probably thanks you for cause he can't get raped by a guy in another form so he will take how ever he can get it.) lol i think this thread is just good entertainment after waking up and already got smile on my face at 9:30 am cst.
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 Ifrit.Jurai
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By Ifrit.Jurai 2010-08-08 02:23:40  
This gonna be very tl;dr, I know, but thought after 11 pages I should at least try.

Ragnarok.Ashman said:
Ifrit.Jurai said:
the str and attack doesn't matter for tping

I normally try to troll the pants off any of the BG faboy types who come in with bandwagon or "accepted as truth" statements without backing anything up. I'm a firm believer in "if you test a parse and have numbers to back it up do what works".

Sadly after this,

I couldn't troll or white knight at all. I feel worseoff for reading this statement alone than anything to ever come out of gaia/malekith/etc's mouth on this forum.
Ragnarok.Ashman said:
After further reading through the thread i now feel bad and it really does seem like Jurai just doesnt understand instead of the misinformed stubborn person i expected.
Really what I said was that "the str and attack doesn't matter for tping (if double attack is doing more dmg)" in that quote. I might be misinformed and don't understand at the same time!

That was the main point of me asking about it and I guess I couldn't explain well my thoughts well enough :\ I've thought about it and I still don't know if I really get it :\ No reply I got here actually told me why or why not- I don't have the data to back up my thoughts but I didn't see any data either that showed my thoughts were wrong

This is how I'm thinking about it:

====

(Again,this is example using made up easy numbers.. obviously not real.. trying to explain what I was trying to say. Also, I prolly messed up the math somewhere even with the easy numbers but even if it's not right it's close and shows my thought process on it -.-)

1. My current set and Perle both need 10 hit to get 100.
2. Takes ~5 sec to attack in both sets.
3. I double attack once per round.
4. My current set has double DA than Perle (10% not 5%).
5. DMG is 150 per hit.
6. DMG in Perle is 10 more (160) per hit do to str/attack boost.
7. WS is 850.

So, both sets take 45 sec to get 100% TP (not 50 cause each DA once eliminating need wait for one more hit.

But, current set DAed twice (because it has double DA) so making me actually only have to attack 8 times, making it take 40 sec not 45.

DMG from current set being 10x150+850=2350 in 40 sec.
2350 / 40 = 58/sec
DMG from Perle set being 10x160+850=2550 in 50 sec.
2450 / 45 = 54/sec

So, now, every round with current set takes 5 seconds less, 8 rounds to get 40 seconds saved (one full round and an extra ws).. so by the time I do 9 in current set, I've done 8 in Perle: 360 sec for 8 rounds.

Current:
2350x8 = 18800 + (extra round that I got in = 2350+850) = 22000 / 360 = 61/sec

Perle:
2550x8 = 19600 / 360 = 54/sec

(Once again, I know my math is prolly bad/wrong but that's how I was thinking of the loss(DA)/gain(att/dps).)


My dot went up even more with the DA helping me get an extra round of hits after a period of time.

Eventually, more dps -will- out do the da rate. But, when is that? Making it around 45 more dmg per hit (in my example and would need lots of attack to do that) finally the dot out does the DA rate.

===

This is how I was thinking of it and I know I don't have real numbers to give an example with. But, even though wrong, this shows how I was seeing it: losing a form of haste for a little more attack- I doubted the attack/dps boost could out do the DA lost which would lead to more hits and ws faster (haste?)

===

At least I tried to explain- if someone can easily explain why I'm wrong or anything I'd appreciate it.

tl;dr

Perle is giving me more att/acc but I'm losing DA (from Askar and Pole). The dps that the att/acc is giving me is very small but I'm losing 45% (4% of 9%)of my DA. How is losing a form of attacking faster better than a very slight increase in dps?
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-08-08 02:48:38  
It's because you don't measure performance through a small amount of time. 9% DA? It's late so I'm probably over looking something but:

That's on average 9 swings per 100.
So 109 Swings per 100.
1090 Swings per 1000.
10900 per 10,000 etc.

As you can see, the difference gets smaller as you go up. Don't forget your other set would still have 5% DA.

105 Swings per 100
1050 Swings per 1000.
10500 swings per 10000.

The effect of DA diminishes as you increase the value. The proc rate goes up by 1% per increase obviously, but the performance increase is less than the one before it. Basically, if you had a 99% proc rate, it'd be pretty pointless adding that last 1%, since you're probably gonna DA anyway.

You'd see the perle set pull ahead by the end of a merit party. The difference is pretty small, but it's still an increase no matter how you look at it. Perle set also offers more applicable stats like higher accuracy than your first set, higher fSTR etc.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-08 15:53:43  
This ***is still going?
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 Asura.Railock
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By Asura.Railock 2010-08-08 16:39:38  
I'm beginning to wonder if the OP just cant bring himself to believe that Perle is the better TP set compared to Turban, Askar, 3 Homam combo that DRGs held as standard.

Take it from me, after much denial it finally sank in, I'm using Full Perle for TP. It takes getting used to seeing yourself looking like everyone else... but it's only TP. Other jobs have to deal with looking alike in gearsets for optimum builds, Perle just made things... simpler and easy to get. It's a bum rap for everyone that worked and waited to get Homam.

If you really want to not use it, get a pair of Dusk Gloves+1. You wont need Homam Hands anymore anyway, but at least you wont look like the rest of the playerbase that had no choice but to conform. If you really want to break from the norm of Full timing Perle DRGs out there, get a good WS set. Last I checked, Heca pieces are still good for DRG among some other new Abyssea goodies.
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 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-08-08 16:57:04  
Even with Dusk+1 Gloves, full Perle is still better. You really need a lot <_<
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 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2010-08-08 17:17:58  
Surprised to see this thread still alive.

Anyways, Double Attack is a beneficial trait for any melee job. The problem here is that our OP doesn't realize that other traits and stats are *more* beneficial, typically.

I *really* don't think anyone with a brain is trying to tell you that Double Attack is bad. It's not possible for it to be bad. However, it's a matter of fact that other equippable statistics are *more* beneficial.

The simplest way to maximize your melee production is to equip gear that caps out your accuracy. That way, you can take advantage of attack and speed bonuses from food and buffs, rather than relying on food/buffs for accuracy.

After that, piling on haste and DEX equipment will ramp up your damage by decreasing your delay between attack rounds, and increasing your critical hit %. Pay attention to Store TP equipment too, if possible, since you don't want to be 1-2 TP shy of 100% after "X" number of swings, if you can help it. Then, and only then, after maximizing your productivity with these steps, should you then pay attention to stuff like Double Attack.

Again, get over the idea that people are telling you Askar Korazin or Pole Strap are "bad" gear. They are not "bad". There's just better options, and in the somewhat closed-minded culture cultivated among the basement-dwellers, anything that isn't exalted to the "best" gets labeled "bad".
After you get over that, check your melee accuracy. You want 92-95%. Then, you want haste equipment, and then DEX equipment, while keeping in mind Store TP gear and how it relates to your weapon's delay factor. When you're done with that, ok to put Double Attack gear in place ... presuming there's any place left to put it.
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 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-08-08 17:30:01  
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
in the somewhat closed-minded culture cultivated among the basement-dwellers, anything that isn't exalted to the "best" gets labeled "bad".

you know, apologizing for calling people basement dwellers on your other thread kinda rings hollow when you go and do it again

besides, where do you want a potato to dwell

if i am exposed to sunlight i will turn green and produce a toxin :(
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 Phoenix.Drinks
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By Phoenix.Drinks 2010-08-08 18:00:21  
i read theres hidden accuracy and double attack in full perle gear and that full perle is the best gear for all jobs that can use it.

seems legit cause in full perle i notice my soboro attacks twice most of the time could be from the double attack
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 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2010-08-08 18:01:47  
Phoenix.Drinks said:
i read theres hidden accuracy and double attack in full perle gear and that full perle is the best gear for all jobs that can use it.

seems legit cause in full perle i notice my soboro attacks twice most of the time could be from the double attack

Pretty sure full isnt best for SAM, BST or WAR. (Pending Byakkos)
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-08 18:08:13  
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
They are not "bad". There's just better options, and in the somewhat closed-minded culture cultivated among the basement-dwellers, anything that isn't exalted to the "best" gets labeled "bad".
Annoying and snobbish tendency to stereotype as many posters as you can as "basement dwellers" aside, sets that are inferior to full Perle can easily be considered bad. The set is easily obtained by anybody who's spent an evening in Abyssea or has ~100k to spend. Good gear that is that easy to get constitutes a baseline, so yes, anything below it can and should be considered subpar. This is an MMO, your actions affect those around you. Subpar gear gives subpar results.

Full Perle is far from best for any job that can wear it as well.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-08 18:08:34  
Phoenix.Drinks said:
i read theres hidden accuracy and double attack in full perle gear and that full perle is the best gear for all jobs that can use it.

seems legit cause in full perle i notice my soboro attacks twice most of the time could be from the double attack
lol'd, well played
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 Bismarck.Rellz
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By Bismarck.Rellz 2010-08-08 18:22:40  
Phoenix.Drinks said:
i read theres hidden accuracy and double attack in full perle gear and that full perle is the best gear for all jobs that can use it.

seems legit cause in full perle i notice my soboro attacks twice most of the time could be from the double attack

its not best for every single job that can use. think the ones that can get away with the whole set is bst drg and drk... the entire set for sam isnt that great legs if no bysakko haidate and body maybe but thats about it...
as for soboro i think its 20% 3 attacks 50% 2 attacks 30% 1 attack
 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-08-08 18:23:49  
Bismarck.Rellz said:
Phoenix.Drinks said:
i read theres hidden accuracy and double attack in full perle gear and that full perle is the best gear for all jobs that can use it.

seems legit cause in full perle i notice my soboro attacks twice most of the time could be from the double attack

its not best for every single job that can use. think the ones that can get away with the whole set is bst drg and drk... the entire set for sam isnt that great legs if no bysakko haidate and body maybe but thats about it...
as for soboro i think its 20% 3 attacks 50% 2 attacks 30% 1 attack

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 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-08-08 18:24:19  
Bismarck.Rellz said:
Phoenix.Drinks said:
i read theres hidden accuracy and double attack in full perle gear and that full perle is the best gear for all jobs that can use it.

seems legit cause in full perle i notice my soboro attacks twice most of the time could be from the double attack

its not best for every single job that can use. think the ones that can get away with the whole set is bst drg and drk... the entire set for sam isnt that great legs if no bysakko haidate and body maybe but thats about it...
as for soboro i think its 20% 3 attacks 50% 2 attacks 30% 1 attack

...
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 Shiva.Daimos
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By Shiva.Daimos 2010-08-08 18:26:50  
Bismarck.Rellz said:
Phoenix.Drinks said:
i read theres hidden accuracy and double attack in full perle gear and that full perle is the best gear for all jobs that can use it.

seems legit cause in full perle i notice my soboro attacks twice most of the time could be from the double attack

its not best for every single job that can use. think the ones that can get away with the whole set is bst drg and drk... the entire set for sam isnt that great legs if no bysakko haidate and body maybe but thats about it...
as for soboro i think its 20% 3 attacks 50% 2 attacks 30% 1 attack
BST can, in fact, wear Byakko's Haidate.

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 Quetzalcoatl.Giazz
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By Quetzalcoatl.Giazz 2010-08-08 18:29:16  
Ifrit.Jurai said:
I've thought about it and I still don't know if I really get it :\ No reply I got here actually told me why or why not- I don't have the data to back up my thoughts but I didn't see any data either that showed my thoughts were wrong

Really now?

Nightfyre explained this to you back on "page one" of this thread...

Here:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
In that case, we turn to

14% Haste
STR +22
DEX +14
Attack +25
Accuracy +18
"Critical hit rate" +2%

vs

14% Haste
STR+5
Attack+12
Accuracy+13
Double Attack +4%

Which comes out to 17 STR 14 DEX 13 attack 5 acc 2 crit vs 4% DA. Break down and regroup: 4-5 fSTR ~3% crit rate 25.75 attack 5 acc vs 4% DA. All told that's well over a 10% increase in TP phase damage given your current set as compared to a global increase of 3.81% minus loss to overflow and increased JA delay from more WS. You'd be looking at a ~35:65 TP:WS split (jumps and resulting WS not included) or possibly a split favoring WS even further for the DA build to be competitive, and DRG's DPS is not nearly that skewed over towards WS damage.

EDIT: 35:65 was a high buff situation. If you're not getting attack buffs in addition to haste buffs, it pulls away further to the point that it's absolutely no contest.

In addition, you do have to take into consideration that what Darkanaseur said is actually true.

Double attack is nice, no doubt, though as you increase your double attack values, you do not get increasing percentage returns. (Haste gets increasing returns since haste is a direct reduction of your weapon delay, but not double attack)

In % (percent) increase, Double attack has diminishing returns. Adding more DA to your previous DA is less of an increase than adding DA to no DA.

In short: the Perle set is giving you more beneficial stats(attack, str/fSTR, dex, critical hit rate, and accuracy), in the long run, than the extra 4% DA that you get with Homam/askar,polegrip.

I think you're just eyeballing it and "think" that the extra 4% double attack is doing more for you, when it actuality is really not better than what you get from full perle, specially if you're making full use of the extra accuracy from full Perle.

Jurai, I think there was quite a bit of info. that showed your thoughts were wrong. You just don't seem to want to believe it...
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 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-08-08 18:37:37  
in all fairness, he did say that he realized he was wrong, but that he had trouble understanding why
 Quetzalcoatl.Giazz
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By Quetzalcoatl.Giazz 2010-08-08 18:46:18  
I can understand that, but even so... different people presented information to show why he was wrong...maybe he does have trouble understanding... but is he going to have trouble understanding and accepting no matter what anybody here says?

Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm not trying to be mean, but if someone won't listen no matter what anybody says or presents... then I don't know what else we could do. Just saying. And, judging by his last post, it actually seems like he still believes that the 4% double attack from askar body and pole grip would be better for him than what he would get from full Perle on his DRG.
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-08-08 18:49:31  
Ifrit.Jurai said:
But, even though wrong, this shows how I was seeing it: losing a form of haste for a little more attack- I doubted the attack/dps boost could out do the DA lost which would lead to more hits and ws faster (haste?)


i do agree that it's extremely hard to get the concept across to him

i talked him on skype for a while and just couldn't get him to understand it
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-08-08 20:21:53  
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:

After you get over that, check your melee accuracy. You want 92-95%. Then, you want haste equipment, and then DEX equipment, while keeping in mind Store TP gear and how it relates to your weapon's delay factor. When you're done with that, ok to put Double Attack gear in place ... presuming there's any place left to put it.

No haste until 92-95% hit rate, okay got it.
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 Ifrit.Vextra
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By Ifrit.Vextra 2010-08-08 20:30:23  
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said:
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:

After you get over that, check your melee accuracy. You want 92-95%. Then, you want haste equipment, and then DEX equipment, while keeping in mind Store TP gear and how it relates to your weapon's delay factor. When you're done with that, ok to put Double Attack gear in place ... presuming there's any place left to put it.

No haste until 92-95% hit rate, okay got it.

pizza says hai!!!
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-08 20:41:48  
This is the dumbest idea ever but I'm gonna run with it.

Let's say you have 200 apples divided into two baskets of 100 each. You LOVE apples and want to get as many as possible. Somebody offers you a choice:

-add 11 apples to the first basket
-add 4 apples to the first basket and 4 apples to the second basket

Which do you choose?

Apples are damage dealt and the baskets are your TP and WS phases, split at 50/50 for convenience (it's close enough anyway, if you feel like splitting it to 40/60 or so it still holds). The 11 apples are your increase from full Perle. The 4 apples in the first basket are DA in a completely perfect situation during TP phase with respect to TP phase damage only, ignoring previously existing DA. 3 of the apples in the second basket are the resulting WS frequency after accounting for TP overflow and adding in the previously existing DA I mentioned earlier and combining it for both TP and WS (*** apple fractions). The remaining apple in the second basket is Pole Grip during WS phase. While it's a 2% increase before considering other DA (Brutal, Ares), it can only proc a maximum of two times (half of Drakesbane's hits) and is thus essentially reduced to 1% (one apple) for Drakesbane.

A sufficient increase to a portion outweighs a lesser increase to the whole.

Also
Elanabelle said:
...haste equipment, and then DEX equipment
wat

DRG can't stack high amounts of DEX during TP phase like an RC WAR could. STR/attack after capping acc and maxing haste gogo.

made some edits for analogic accuracy
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 Ifrit.Vextra
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By Ifrit.Vextra 2010-08-08 20:45:58  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
This is the dumbest idea ever but I'm gonna run with it.

Let's say you have 200 apples divided into two baskets of 100 each. You LOVE apples and want to get as many as possible. Somebody offers you a choice:

-add 11 apples to the first basket
-add 4 apples to the first basket and 1 apple to the second basket

Which do you do?

Apples are damage dealt and the baskets are your TP and WS phases, split at 50/50 for convenience (it's close enough anyway, if you feel like splitting it to 40/60 even it still holds). The 11 apples are your increase from full Perle. The 4 apples in the first basket are DA in a completely perfect situation during TP phase. You have no other DA and you never DA on the last hit to WS (no overflow). Given these two factors, in reality it's almost only 3 apples but you get the idea. The one apple in the second basket is Pole Grip during WS phase. While it's a 2% increase before considering other DA (Brutal, Ares), it can only proc a maximum of two times and is thus essentially reduced to 1% (one apple) for Drakesbane.

A sufficient increase to a portion outweighs a lesser increase to the whole.

Also
Elanabelle said:
...haste equipment, and then DEX equipment
wat

DRG can't stack high amounts of DEX during TP phase like an RC WAR could. STR/attack after capping acc and maxing haste gogo.

and a smurf is 3 apples tall so if, wait what?
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-08 20:47:36  
Like I said, dumbest idea ever XD I think after the edits it's reasonably close to the mark but describing damage as apples... brb gonna get my head checked.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-08-08 20:49:40  
Damnit, Must reskin Perle to red/green like apples!
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-08 20:50:38  
I have this sudden image of a DRG running around in the Fruit of the Loom apple costume from the commercials.
 Quetzalcoatl.Giazz
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By Quetzalcoatl.Giazz 2010-08-08 21:20:13  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Like I said, dumbest idea ever XD I think after the edits it's reasonably close to the mark but describing damage as apples... brb gonna get my head checked.

I think I actually understood everything you meant in that post though lol
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