If you want to talk about genocide and children.. Read the bible.. Did god not kill every first born male child in Egypt? Not the pharoah, Not the guy who defied god. He killed the children... No wonder Satan was cast out of heaven... I would have defied god too :)
God talks about just punishment. Earlier in that very same book the Pharoah of Egypt killed every Jewish firstborn.
Ok, I think I got it.
Killing children that are not born yet is bad.
But killing children in the name of god is perfectly fine?
This goes back to that logical pathway between god and atrocious acts that I was talking about...
Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity.
This is an excuse used be pro-choice fanatics to justify abortion. This has nothing to do with Atheism At All.
Atheism has nothing to do with supporting or not supporting abortion. The only belief in atheism is the disbelief in a deity.
You can be atheist and be pro-life.
You can also be theist and be pro-choice.
That is true. Though what I'm trying to say is that most people who are Atheist are also pro-choice. In the same way that religious people are judged for contradicting their set of rules and thusly stereotyped, so are Atheists for being pro-choice. It's not the idea of atheism that is pro-choice, but a large percentage of its members. Or so I'm told; no source to cite. Take it with a grain of salt. Still not the main point of my original post.
Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system.
No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs.
The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
Hm, wow, let me see if I understand this...because atheists don't believe in a -god-, you think they shouldn't technically believe in anything?
Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the word "atheist".
A "theist" is one who believes in a god.
An "a-theist" is one who -lacks- belief in a god.
This has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with one's beliefs in the life or non-life of an unborn fetus. One can believe in a NUMBER of things and still be an "a-theist" because the word ONLY refers to theism, i.e., belief in a deity or deities. It doesn't refer to anything else, at all.
Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system. No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs. The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
Hm, wow, let me see if I understand this...because atheists don't believe in a -god-, you think they shouldn't technically believe in anything? Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the word "atheist". A "theist" is one who believes in a god. An "a-theist" is one who -lacks- belief in a god. This has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with one's beliefs in the life or non-life of an unborn fetus. One can believe in a NUMBER of things and still be an "a-theist" because the word ONLY refers to theism, i.e., belief in a deity or deities. It doesn't refer to anything else, at all.
It's really not hard to research these numbers you guys are saying you have no source to cite. Google's got 'em readily available. I'm just sayin'. It only takes a few minutes and it would make these debates a lot more interesting.
I'm hamstrung by the need to stay mostly neutral, being the admin of this site, and not desiring to drive anyone away. That's why I tend to stick to pointing out logical flaws or citing numbers, rather than taking a stand on either side.
That having been said, the abortion thing has always struck me a much simpler argument than people make it out to be.
I've never met someone who thinks a fetus is both a human AND abortion is always a-okay. Conversely, I've never met someone who thinks a fetus isn't a human, and abortion is always wrong. There's some gray areas, but generally this seems to be how it works out.
This implies, (to me anyway), that essentially all of the religious, cultural, moral, and logical arguments that stem from the abortion debate come down to the person's fundamental assumption about the personhood of the fetus.
Once they've made that assumption, (which they could have made for religious, scientific, or other reasons), their stance on all of the subsequent arguments tends to follow a predictable course. Both sides tend to be equally internally consistent, but their arguments diverge immediately.
The trouble is, you get threads like this where the two sides are arguing about their own conclusions that followed from that first question. This is a meaningless exercise, because due to the fundamental discrepancy from which both arguments grew, they are forever irreconcilable with one another.
This is a meaningless exercise, because due to the fundamental discrepancy from which both arguments grew, they are forever irreconcilable with one another.
Welcome to the state of AMURICAN politics.
Time to start over from "zero" if you get my drift.
Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system.
No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs.
The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
Hm, wow, let me see if I understand this...because atheists don't believe in a -god-, you think they shouldn't technically believe in anything?
Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the word "atheist".
A "theist" is one who believes in a god.
An "a-theist" is one who -lacks- belief in a god.
This has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with one's beliefs in the life or non-life of an unborn fetus. One can believe in a NUMBER of things and still be an "a-theist" because the word ONLY refers to theism, i.e., belief in a deity or deities. It doesn't refer to anything else, at all.
Not really pertaining to the argument... but still, I'ma go there. "god" from dictionary .com (7) ( lowercase ) any deified person or object.
Everyone has a god, even if you don't want to accept it. If you still play FFXI, it is probably that.
Pertaining to the argument, I followed up to say that the people who call themselves atheists are often times the ones who believe in pro-choice. Thats the point, everything else was beating around the bush, was without citation, and may have been wrong. I think Jaerik's link proves this, though I could have read it wrong.
Don't get in a tizzy because I assumed you were pro-choice if you are atheist. Apparently some of you assume I'm HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if I'm a self proclaimed Christian.
"Atheism causes people to do bad things," "Catholicism causes people to do bad things," "Christians do bad things," the same can be said for every type of belief. Atheism condones abortion, which is, without doubt a mass murdering of children. Catholicism brought about the Catholic Inquisition, which was also a horrible crime. Christianity influenced the crusades which was plain out idiotic murder of innocents for false relics in the name of Jesus Christ. The fact of the matter is that everyone is human. Though it should never be an excuse in which we hide it is a truth that we cannot hide from. The only difference is that Christians are called not to sin, when Atheists have no moral obligations (though they may still have good morals).
What are you talking about? Atheism does not condone Abortion.. It does not condone anything. There are NO beliefs in Atheism. There is no belief system in Atheism.
I am Atheist, and I do not support any type of abortion, besides using a condom.
But you could also say that using a condom is massive genocide as well ^.^
Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system.
No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs.
The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
wait... atheism doesn't mean "someone with no beliefs"... it means no belief in a deity
our brain seems hardwired into believing stuff... not just religious stuff... someone tells you something, chances are you'll accept it without checking... we do this all the time, without even noticing
someone with no beliefs would be a perfect critical thinker, but critical thinking is a very difficult exercise
I've never met anyone who could keep up with always suspending judgment until enough evidence is gathered
but really...I think Jaerik hit the Abortion topic right on the head...with a rather large hammer...
@the video: Yes, this is how Christianity is viewed, not how it should be practiced. I can't apologize for the people who treat others this way, but it's not the message of the Bible. No Christian should be forcing anything on anyone, it doesn't work like that. Jesus has to be accepted of ones own will and thirst for Him.
I'm hamstrung by the need to stay mostly neutral, being the admin of this site, and not desiring to drive anyone away. That's why I tend to stick to pointing out logical flaws or citing numbers, rather than taking a stand on either side.
That having been said, the abortion thing has always struck me a much simpler argument than people make it out to be.
I've never met someone who thinks a fetus is both a human AND abortion is always a-okay. Conversely, I've never met someone who thinks a fetus isn't a human, and abortion is always wrong. There's some gray areas, but generally this seems to be how it works out.
This implies, (to me anyway), that essentially all of the religious, cultural, moral, and logical arguments that stem from the abortion debate come down to the person's fundamental assumption about the personhood of the fetus.
Once they've made that assumption, (which they could have made for religious, scientific, or other reasons), their stance on all of the subsequent arguments tends to follow a predictable course. Both sides tend to be equally internally consistent, but their arguments diverge immediately.
The trouble is, you get threads like this where the two sides are arguing about their own conclusions that followed from that first question. This is a meaningless exercise, because due to the fundamental discrepancy from which both arguments grew, they are forever irreconcilable with one another.
as a mum i can say the moment i concieved i felt something living inside me, something different, even before I went to take a pregnancy test or felt myself late, I knew something was completly different.
I believe it's a living thing the moment is concieved, why not? because it lacks the apperance of a human? It is still alive... But oh well :P some people don't want responsabilities or anything attatchments and would rather get rid of it like it's a chunk of dead meat. sad story. sad.
Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system.
No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs.
The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
Hm, wow, let me see if I understand this...because atheists don't believe in a -god-, you think they shouldn't technically believe in anything?
Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the word "atheist".
A "theist" is one who believes in a god.
An "a-theist" is one who -lacks- belief in a god.
This has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with one's beliefs in the life or non-life of an unborn fetus. One can believe in a NUMBER of things and still be an "a-theist" because the word ONLY refers to theism, i.e., belief in a deity or deities. It doesn't refer to anything else, at all.
as an Atheist I agree to this, we always get confused for not believing in ANYTHING at all and we get connected with science instantly, like we're followers of science by the book with out question, like robots.
People, atheist = lack of belief in god.
nothing else, nothing else!
Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system.
No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs.
The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system.
No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs.
The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
I do have sympathy for the argument that writing off an entire religion, or the practitioners of that religion, because of bad behavior by a few of its members, is wholly unfair.
That having been said, if the followers of said religion do not act better or worse than the general population in any statistically relevant way, what's the point?
This has actually been my main argument against religion for years. Statistically, people who are religious are not any less likely to do drugs, be promiscuous, have abortions, commit crimes, or act like jerks than those who do not subscribe to any religion. Claims of "eternal salvation" are pretty and sound good, but I'm more concerned with their behavior here on earth, and frankly, they don't particularly behave any better or worse than anyone else.
Edited to add: In fact, all one has to do is a demographic search of the "red states" to see that those states tend to have the highest percentages of their population engaging in the very behaviors that their religion preaches against.
or how about this
'Oh Noes! I'm pregnant, my parents will keel me for not being married and being promicuous! Oh I know! I'll have an abortion and give god 500 prayers for forgiveness and all my sins are forgiven I can go on life like nothing happened ^ ^'
Christianity doesn't make people less likely to do something, if anything, gives them more excuses to do it and feel like they will be forgiven. Because God forgives it all right right? :D
Bismarck.Magnumatic said:
If you want to talk about genocide and children.. Read the bible..
Did god not kill every first born male child in Egypt? Not the pharoah, Not the guy who defied god. He killed the children...
No wonder Satan was cast out of heaven...
I would have defied god too :)
Bismarck.Magnumatic said:
If you want to talk about genocide and children.. Read the bible..
Did god not kill every first born male child in Egypt? Not the pharoah, Not the guy who defied god. He killed the children...
No wonder Satan was cast out of heaven...
I would have defied god too :)
hahaha... made my night.
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
who do you think is more violent and has a higher probability to create an act of murder/violence, a religious person who believes in a judgment day or someone who no fear of ever caught?
WTF macbrook, people have morals I believe, the thing we should follow are a person's morals, christianity doesn't really teach them, it just preaches them, and I believe people join christianity mostly because they have probably sinned so much they need cleansing, not because they have fear for eternal hell or w/e.
Oh Noes! I'm pregnant, my parents will keel me for not being married and being promicuous! Oh I know! I'll have an abortion and give god 500 prayers for forgiveness and all my sins are forgiven I can go on life like nothing happened ^ ^' Christianity doesn't make people less likely to do something, if anything, gives them more excuses to do it and feel like they will be forgiven. Because God forgives it all right right? :D
Why buy the bike when I can steal one and ask god to forgive me!
It's so ridiculous.
You don't have to be a good person to make it to heaven. You just have to believe in god!
An atheist who has never done anything wrong won't make to heaven.
Oh Noes! I'm pregnant, my parents will keel me for not being married and being promicuous! Oh I know! I'll have an abortion and give god 500 prayers for forgiveness and all my sins are forgiven I can go on life like nothing happened ^ ^' Christianity doesn't make people less likely to do something, if anything, gives them more excuses to do it and feel like they will be forgiven. Because God forgives it all right right? :D
Why buy the bike when I can steal one and ask god to forgive me!
It's so ridiculous.
You don't have to be a good person to make it to heaven. You just have to believe in god!
An atheist who has never done anything wrong won't make to heaven.
But I bet Hitler made it..
and Now, You've made my week. Ofcourse he did! He actually felt sorry for all his sins{the ones he didnt excuse with god 'course} and before his death he had a priest hold his hand and tell him it was alright!
'I will kill my only son because god told me to!'
and that's my excuse!
JOHANNESBURG -- Police say a South African man who wanted to watch a World Cup match instead of a religious program was beaten to death by his family in the northeastern part of the country.
David Makoeya, a 61-year-old man from the small village of Makweya, Limpopo province, fought with his wife and two children for the remote control on Sunday because he wanted to watch Germany play Australia in the World Cup. The others, however, wanted to watch a gospel show.
"He said, 'No, I want to watch soccer,'" police spokesman Mothemane Malefo said Thursday. "That is when the argument came about.
"In that argument, they started assaulting him."
Malefo said Makoeya got up to change the channel by hand after being refused the remote control and was attacked by his 68-year-old wife Francina and two children, 36-year-old son Collin and 23-year-old daughter Lebogang.
Malefo said he was not sure what the family used to kill Makoeya.
"It appears they banged his head against the wall," Malefo said. "They phoned the police only after he was badly injured, but by the time the police arrived the man was already dead."
All three were arrested Sunday night, but Lebogang was released on $200 bail Tuesday, Malefo said. The other two are still being held in custody.
Malefo said the mother and son will reappear in the local Seshego Magistrates Court on July 27.
"He was always a happy man, never violent," Makoeya's nieces, Miriam and Anna, told the Daily Sun newspaper. "On Saturday, we saw him the last time at a funeral."
The World Cup, being played in Africa for the first time, started Friday and runs through July 11.
