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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-05-01 19:21:10
Ragnarok.Virusheartt said: sorry Korpg being busy with those 2 ppl trying to let them stfu since they had nothing to say other then trying to be "look I'm the funny guy"
what do you want to know ? Who said I was trying to be funny?
I sincerely meant it when I said to STFU, GTFO and go QQ (which is cry, just in case you don't know) somewhere else.
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By Ragnarok.Virusheartt 2010-05-01 19:22:02
another annoying person just join us , welcome .Princemercu
Leviathan.Phenomena
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By Leviathan.Phenomena 2010-05-01 19:22:23
ok i didnt notice this til now but why is ffxiah covered in single muslim adds? >.>
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-01 19:23:07
Leviathan.Phenomena said: ok i didnt notice this til now but why is ffxiah covered in single muslim adds? >.>
For the lulz.
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-05-01 19:23:26
Because the forums don't want Virus posting anymore and they're trying to entice him away to go somewhere else.
Leviathan.Phenomena
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By Leviathan.Phenomena 2010-05-01 19:23:31
Phoenix.Kojo said: Leviathan.Phenomena said: ok i didnt notice this til now but why is ffxiah covered in single muslim adds? >.>
For the lulz.
nice lol.
Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-01 19:23:38
Trebold said: Ragnarok.Virusheartt said: Qur'an doesnt say that infidels must be killed....
Surah 9:5 would like to have a word with you... beat me to it.
Phoenix.Kojo said: I think that's traditional in some areas, in others IIRC, it has become more lenient to women being able to show their faces. And by IIRC, I mean "If I'm wrong, it isn't my fault." Yeah, but isn't the whole point in making women hide their faces in public just to demean them in what they truly want?
Ragnarok.Virusheartt said: will to be honst I dont blame u for knowing nothing to a few about islam since all what you guys saw from us was ppl who kill other people under the name of islam other then what the goverments says about islam in public Bolded for the fix. Be more honest about your religion.
By Trebold 2010-05-01 19:24:08
Asura.Balufalu said: I kinda agree with Virusheartt...
While this is stashed in the "everything" forum, I think the topic itself is kinda too sensitive to be discussed openly. Now, some people are gonna be "Well why? Are you just another person that can't accept anothers' point of view?"
No, I can very much accept anothers' point of view. There's too much generalization, especially with the opening post, along with a lack of understanding or explanation on shariah law.
Slip made a good point of saying "Well they're making islamic Extremists look bad", but there's hardly been a mention of extremists, only those who have a grain of common sense could see that was the case, where a lot of others would jump to conclusions.
I'm a fan of conversations like this, but when they base from the ramblings of some moron that has nothing better to do than find a controversial topic that they know will ruffle some feathers, add in their boneheaded-ness and adding in sly comments that "Religion is mundane" and other sentances that revolve around "Well I think this is stupid, so you must be stupid or living in the dark ages to still follow that crap" then you have a shitstorm in the making.
Balufalu: 3 posts, all of which are only in this thread.
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By Ragnarok.Virusheartt 2010-05-01 19:25:59
will I'm feeling lonely here so thank you Balufalu for the support
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-01 19:26:58
Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Kojo said: I think that's traditional in some areas, in others IIRC, it has become more lenient to women being able to show their faces. And by IIRC, I mean "If I'm wrong, it isn't my fault." Yeah, but isn't the whole point in making women hide their faces in public just to demean them in what they truly want?
No, no. It's a thing of modesty. Like how women were considered inappropriate to show their ankles pre-1930s, or like how it's inappropriate for a woman to show her breasts. They just believe it is/was inappropriate.
By Trebold 2010-05-01 19:27:36
Surah 9:5
"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-01 19:28:09
I don't even give my opinions on these matters, I'd be thrown out into the street and stoned most likely ;-;
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-01 19:28:45
Trebold said: Surah 9:5 "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."
INFIDEL!!
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By semimmortal 2010-05-01 19:30:30
Trebold said: Surah 9:5
"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Dude... you do know this applies only to their region in the past?
read moar
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Phoenix.Ingraham
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By Phoenix.Ingraham 2010-05-01 19:30:45
It's entirely possible to practice a religion and not agree with everything about it. Crazy idea, I know.
inb4 "lol change religions" or "haha religion sux"
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-01 19:30:49
Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Kojo said: I think that's traditional in some areas, in others IIRC, it has become more lenient to women being able to show their faces. And by IIRC, I mean "If I'm wrong, it isn't my fault." Yeah, but isn't the whole point in making women hide their faces in public just to demean them in what they truly want?
No, no. It's a thing of modesty. Like how women were considered inappropriate to show their ankles pre-1930s, or like how it's inappropriate for a woman to show her breasts. They just believe it is/was inappropriate.
Your already innapropriate for saying breasts. ! you will get stoned !!!
Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-01 19:31:39
Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Kojo said: I think that's traditional in some areas, in others IIRC, it has become more lenient to women being able to show their faces. And by IIRC, I mean "If I'm wrong, it isn't my fault." Yeah, but isn't the whole point in making women hide their faces in public just to demean them in what they truly want?
No, no. It's a thing of modesty. Like how women were considered inappropriate to show their ankles pre-1930s, or like how it's inappropriate for a woman to show her breasts. They just believe it is/was inappropriate. I agree with you on that, if it wasn't for the fact that I read in a journal that women generally grasp the vain concept of beauty thru their entire lives. Meaning they want to be beautiful, and want to show it to the world their beauty.
What the men of Islam are doing is demeaning the women by making them go against their innate believe of beauty, and are therefor hurting themselves by that.
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By Asura.Balufalu 2010-05-01 19:31:45
Trebold said:
Balufalu: 3 posts, all of which are only in this thread.
Might wanna look up my main character, Israfel then
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-01 19:32:05
Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Kojo said: I think that's traditional in some areas, in others IIRC, it has become more lenient to women being able to show their faces. And by IIRC, I mean "If I'm wrong, it isn't my fault." Yeah, but isn't the whole point in making women hide their faces in public just to demean them in what they truly want? No, no. It's a thing of modesty. Like how women were considered inappropriate to show their ankles pre-1930s, or like how it's inappropriate for a woman to show her breasts. They just believe it is/was inappropriate. Your already innapropriate for saying breasts. ! you will get stoned !!!
Shut up, woman.
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By Ragnarok.Virusheartt 2010-05-01 19:32:25
LOL Kojo keep going guys that's what I thought that this subject is aiming for , leaving forums so you guys can post more screen shots till you guys get tired and close it
it seems that who created this forum didnt say somthing else or did I just missed it?
get alife guys...
later~
By Trebold 2010-05-01 19:33:26
semimmortal said: Trebold said: Surah 9:5
"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Dude... you do know this applies only to their region in the past?
read moar
9:1 A declaration of immunity from God and His apostle to the idolaters with whom you have made agreements:
9:2 For four months you shall go unmolested in the land. But know that you shall not escape God’s judgement, and that God will humble the unbelievers.
9:3 A proclamation to the people from God and His apostle on the day of the greater pilgrimage:
God and His apostle are under no obligation to the idolaters. If you repent, it shall be well with you; but if you give no heed, know that you shall not be immune from God’s judgement.
Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers,
9:4 except to those idolaters who have honoured their treaties with you in every detail and aided none against you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. God loves the righteous.
9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.
9:6 If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of God, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men.
9:7 God and His apostle repose no trust in idolaters, save those with whom you have made treaties at the Sacred Mosque. So long as they keep faith with you, keep faith with them. God loves the righteous.
9:8 How can you trust them? If they prevail against you they will respect neither agreements nor ties of kindred. They flatter you with their tongues, but their hearts reject you. Most of them are evil doers.
Yes, because this says: "oh, by the way, guys, only do this between the years 500 AD to 1500 AD, ok?"
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-01 19:33:31
Phoenix.Kojo said: Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Kojo said: I think that's traditional in some areas, in others IIRC, it has become more lenient to women being able to show their faces. And by IIRC, I mean "If I'm wrong, it isn't my fault." Yeah, but isn't the whole point in making women hide their faces in public just to demean them in what they truly want? No, no. It's a thing of modesty. Like how women were considered inappropriate to show their ankles pre-1930s, or like how it's inappropriate for a woman to show her breasts. They just believe it is/was inappropriate. Your already innapropriate for saying breasts. ! you will get stoned !!!
Shut up, woman.
You trollinz. :(
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-01 19:33:33
Ragnarok.Virusheartt said: LOL Kojo keep going guys that's what I thought that this subject is aiming for , leaving forums so you guys can post more screen shots till you guys get tired and close it
it seems that who created this forum didnt say somthing else or did I just missed it?
get alife guys...
later~
My life doesn't revolve around *** slapping women who show hair so... yeah.
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-01 19:33:51
Ragnarok.Virusheartt said: LOL Kojo keep going guys that's what I thought that this subject is aiming for , leaving forums so you guys can post more screen shots till you guys get tired and close it it seems that who created this forum didnt say somthing else or did I just missed it? get alife guys... later~
I'd like to make it clear that I'm not being ignorant, I'm being an ***.
By semimmortal 2010-05-01 19:35:06
Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Kojo said: I think that's traditional in some areas, in others IIRC, it has become more lenient to women being able to show their faces. And by IIRC, I mean "If I'm wrong, it isn't my fault." Yeah, but isn't the whole point in making women hide their faces in public just to demean them in what they truly want?
No, no. It's a thing of modesty. Like how women were considered inappropriate to show their ankles pre-1930s, or like how it's inappropriate for a woman to show her breasts. They just believe it is/was inappropriate. I agree with you on that, if it wasn't for the fact that I read in a journal that women generally grasp the vain concept of beauty thru their entire lives. Meaning they want to be beautiful, and want to show it to the world their beauty.
What the men of Islam are doing is demeaning the women by making them go against their innate believe of beauty, and are therefor hurting themselves by that. Actually, if you look deep into why they're doing so, is similar to how nuns cover up their body completely.
Modesty, faithfulness, etc.
This is pretty low to criticize on, and only makes us look bad to look down on them for that...
Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-01 19:35:59
Ragnarok.Virusheartt said: LOL Kojo keep going guys that's what I thought that this subject is aiming for , leaving forums so you guys can post more screen shots till you guys get tired and close it
it seems that who created this forum didnt say somthing else or did I just missed it?
get alife guys...
later~ Page 2 of this very thread:
Asura.Korpg said: It was just another person's avoidance of accepting that other people have different points of view.
Its either run away from the truth, censorship, or mass murder.
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By Asura.Balufalu 2010-05-01 19:36:48
semimmortal said: Actually, if you look deep into why they're doing so, is similar to how nuns cover up their body completely.
Modesty, faithfulness, etc.
This is pretty low to criticize on, and only makes us look bad to look down on them for that...
Amen to this, isn't the whole point of them covering their bodies supposed to be because Their body is for their husband's eyes only?
Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra
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By Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra 2010-05-01 19:37:21
Shiva.Flionheart said: I don't even give my opinions on these matters, I'd be thrown out into the street and stoned most likely ;-; My views are borderline heretical, apparently.
Something to do with me not recognizing Israel as a country appears to piss people off.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-01 19:37:44
Phoenix.Kojo said: Ragnarok.Virusheartt said: LOL Kojo keep going guys that's what I thought that this subject is aiming for , leaving forums so you guys can post more screen shots till you guys get tired and close it it seems that who created this forum didnt say somthing else or did I just missed it? get alife guys... later~
I'd like to make it clear that I'm not being ignorant, I'm being an ***. <3
[+]
By semimmortal 2010-05-01 19:38:03
Trebold said: semimmortal said: Trebold said: Surah 9:5
"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Dude... you do know this applies only to their region in the past?
read moar
9:1 A declaration of immunity from God and His apostle to the idolaters with whom you have made agreements:
9:2 For four months you shall go unmolested in the land. But know that you shall not escape God’s judgement, and that God will humble the unbelievers.
9:3 A proclamation to the people from God and His apostle on the day of the greater pilgrimage:
God and His apostle are under no obligation to the idolaters. If you repent, it shall be well with you; but if you give no heed, know that you shall not be immune from God’s judgement.
Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers,
9:4 except to those idolaters who have honoured their treaties with you in every detail and aided none against you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. God loves the righteous.
9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.
9:6 If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of God, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men.
9:7 God and His apostle repose no trust in idolaters, save those with whom you have made treaties at the Sacred Mosque. So long as they keep faith with you, keep faith with them. God loves the righteous.
9:8 How can you trust them? If they prevail against you they will respect neither agreements nor ties of kindred. They flatter you with their tongues, but their hearts reject you. Most of them are evil doers.
Yes, because this says: "oh, by the way, guys, only do this between the years 500 AD to 1500 AD, ok?" Only proved it more so lol.
Read before copy/paste, and learn wtf they're talking about.
Hint in case of retardism: Research the idols in that era and their believers.
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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