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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
Fairy.Maimed
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-05 13:52:00
Korpg, I think you're a douche, you think I'm a douche. Simply put, it's just nerd rage x2 and quite frankly I'm done with it because us bickering has nothing positive to contribute to this thread.
With that being said, I'd like to put in my two cents worth after doing some catch-up:
Religion does not change. It's simply text on a document considered to be sacred. However, religion tends to be a leading factor in shaping culture.
The issue today is most people associate Islam with the cultures that blatantly stand out (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc) and it's hard to avoid doing so when the two seem so intertwined.
However, the assumption that all muslims live their lives according to what has been portrayed in the forum posts is like saying people who live in Vatican City are a good representation of all Catholics around the world.
Keep in mind that in a world of over 1 billion muslims, you are judging your opinions off of a small population in comparison to the rest of the world. It's like saying all gay people around the world behave exactly like those that live in San Francisco, because it's the most obvious geographic locale we can associate with open homosexuality.
---
Anyway, I want to touch on a post I saw about low divorce rates in "muslim" households. Middle eastern culture (and eastern culture overall) is very different than western culture. Family isn't the inconvenience you have to deal with a couple of times a year around the holidays. I know this may not be the case with all of you out there but think really hard about it. If this doesn't apply to you, I'm sure you know at least a few people whom it does.
I'm sure some of you have heard the saying "marry into the family" and that rings true. A woman doesn't simply marry a man, and vica versa. It truly is a combination of families. This is a blessing in the sense that (now I will combine the two) muslim/middle eastern families tend to have greater support systems than most traditional western households. However, if the relationship between husband and wife goes sour for any reason (ie abusive, disinterest, etc) it is harder to seperate oneself because you've already intertwined both families together. So even though the divorce rate is relatively low, I wouldn't say it's an accurate representation of someone's true happiness. My opinion leads me to believe those marriages lean more towards the outer extremities of being happy in the relationship or completely unhappy. You've either embraced the idea of having a village as part of your new family or you hate it and don't know how to get out.
Sorry for wall of text but I felt it was important enough to put everything that was on my mind down. Hopefully this will help enlighten some of you.
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Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-05 13:58:37
I am boss, let the thread die.
Fairy.Maimed
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-05 14:01:41
If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.
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Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-05 14:03:48
Fairy.Maimed said: If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.
It's a troll thread anyway. Psyence seems to do that with religious posts.
[+]
Ragnarok.Psyence
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By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-05-11 17:48:32
Asura.Jetzabel said: I enjoy debating things, but only with people who are in the debate for the right reasons.
I feel like it is a little worthless if you don't. Someone like him only needs to listen to many different opinions in order to make up his own. Some people like me need to state what they think aloud and hear/read how others criticize their opinion. Some other (perhaps you) will attack opinions and learn something from the way people defend their stance. To each his method and perhaps the best would be to practice each, since each can bring different results. None of these methods are narrow-minded. Unless you've never asked a single honest question to anyone different from you, you're not that narrow-minded.
Basically... You had a hard time understanding why he doesn't have a single-minded opinion that you can either attack or agree with. And you call me narrow minded because I have an opinion that radically differs from yours and dare to defend it. That sums my perception of what you think a debate should be. My perception is just a perception.
Sure, the subject of the thread is somewhat provocative and some of what I say is clearly stating my anti-religious views. I've noticed that the only way to get replies about these subjects and know what people really think, is to be slightly provocative. Even though I'm against the concept of organized religions doesn't mean I despise the people in them. I was born in a religion, it's not like I hate my parents or childhood friends.
I believe that being wrong or lacking information is not necessarily an excuse to avoid giving an opinion on a subject. For example, I know very little about Islam, but I do know that when I talk about it personally, people more than often get emotional. After a while, I tried to understand why, because to me, it was just weird. I made a hypothesis and wrote my own "narrow-minded" perspective of it. I am convinced that an open-minded Muslim would perhaps smile reading it because my opinion is biased and completely different from his own biased view of Islam. But that's okay, no one is trying to kill anyone. Yes?
The only way to avoid being biased about a subject is act like Trebold did in these previous posts. It's useful to have people like him fueling a conversation, and also it's a great way for him to avoid the prejudice that people like you automatically develop towards people like me. A example of what he's doing that bothers you is how a gay person could omit that he's gay when talking about AIDS to an audience of high-school students, knowing that they'll put a label on him and tend to discredit his message otherwise. I think he's trying to avoid influencing your answers, you can learn to adapt by replying differently.
Ragnarok.Psyence
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By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-05-11 18:27:20
Okay, done reading all the useful posts. Thanks for taking this seriously.
@Maimed
It's a good point you brought about how the families are tighly brought together in your culture, it has good sides, but if a couple wants to divorce it can really create ***, I can only imagine. Still, not so much of a bad thing, because having strong bonds with people has its uses. It seems to me like the guys who thought about encouraging this in your religion were quite clever because it helps your religion stay strong and makes it hard to leave (if you can't leave the wife, imagine the religion lol).
It's hard not to follow when you're surrounded by people who do and I really like being able to decide whom I want to have relationships with. I do not think just because me and someone else have the same blood, we should always give priority, because family is well, it not all that significant when you think about it. I love my sister and parents, but if I meet a cousin I've never spoke to, it's not like there would be a magical symbiosis making us enjoy each others company. Same goes for culture, I smile each time I see 5 people having fun together, and they're from 5 different origins. These social bonds are created by the strength of will. Respect is deserved, even from family members. At least, that's how I feel about it. I've seen people putting religion before their family, especially in secluded cults, children leaving and their parents cutting bonds. Talk to someone who managed to leave Mormonism, you'll be outraged.
@Mabrook
As usual, you know how to keep your cool and that's something I like about you. You know, I met this 30something year old man Ahmed once, and he had an extremely high IQ, he was just that brilliant and we talked about so many different subjects. What was incredible is that I was able to talk to him openly about whatever I thought of religion (it was a while ago, I think I still kind of believed in some form of god back then) or any political subject, science, whatever. He drank, didn't smoke, practiced Ramadan but didn't really take it too seriously (he would skip parts when it bothered him, and he wouldn't feel guilty, just would admit he didn't think it was THAT important). This is the kind of man I wish your Prophet was described as in the Qu'ran, but who am I to change your culture right ^^; Seriously, this guy I met was a great role model and thanks to him, I have hope that one day even a very "controlling" religion can have less power over people's mind as they evolve. He didn't take Islam TOO seriously, but he did respect it in a way similar to how I see things; just as you do, he was able to use his logic to decide what parts of the holy book didn't make sense to his secular values. I think I should write to him, it's been over 5 years.... Damn FF11 xD
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-11 19:05:29
Titan.Tails said: Angrying
Ragnarok.Vitaru
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By Ragnarok.Vitaru 2010-05-15 09:39:49
Well after reading 21 pages in this topic, around 2 people including me who are Muslims replied in this topic, which kinda give the idea that this title "Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?" is wrong.
To explain more, majority of us are reading this topic and aren't angry or even give a ***.
[+]
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-15 12:48:25
Phoenix.Kojo said: Fairy.Maimed said: If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.
It's a troll thread anyway. Psyence seems to do that with religious posts.
if you *** with Kojo...
Your *** with the best!
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-15 13:53:14
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Fairy.Maimed said: If you tire of the thread, don't bother following up on it. Some of us actually care enough to continue the conversation.
It's a troll thread anyway. Psyence seems to do that with religious posts.
if you *** with Kojo...
Your *** with the best! For you:
Then:
lol.
lol you know i was hoping i'd go through my life with out seeing one of those devices...shame on you!
Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-05-15 15:12:22
By Trebold 2010-05-15 15:44:04
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: That lady is such a horrible speaker... I wish I were there, only thing I'd say when he said that would be: "Why would I condemn any person be it good or bad? Who am I or you to judge anyone to death or outside of societies culture?"
Plus the Hilter youth program is a very very bad name >_> But ya she deserved to be shut down by him lol.
The word "condemn" doesn't have anything to do with death. You must be mistaken because of its constant use in the phrase: "condemn to death". If condemn itself had something to do with death, then that phrase would be redundant.
By Trebold 2010-05-15 15:59:47
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: Trebold said: Lakshmi.Mabrook said: Midgardsormr.Frobeus said: That lady is such a horrible speaker... I wish I were there, only thing I'd say when he said that would be: "Why would I condemn any person be it good or bad? Who am I or you to judge anyone to death or outside of societies culture?"
Plus the Hilter youth program is a very very bad name >_> But ya she deserved to be shut down by him lol.
The word "condemn" doesn't have anything to do with death. You must be mistaken because of its constant use in the phrase: "condemn to death". If condemn itself had something to do with death, then that phrase would be redundant. Bolded for easier reading. Condemn can be used in many different types of ways like you said, "condemn to death", or like I said, outside of societies cultures.
Why would you give him enough rope for him to hang yourself with though? He'd just retort: "I'm not condemning them to death, I'm in support of human rights. While Hamas is clearly attacking the rights of Jews and Christians, I myself respect their rights to live."
What do you mean "outside of societies culture" btw? Ostracize them? He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-15 16:06:35
Trebold said: He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.
You can also be indifferent.
By Trebold 2010-05-15 16:10:38
Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree.
You can also be indifferent.
She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it.
By Trebold 2010-05-15 16:21:06
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Because those people who are offended when you criticize islam are ***!
Say one line. Win argument.
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-15 19:13:30
Trebold said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree. You can also be indifferent. She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it.
Oh, really? Here's a question; Are you Muslim?
(I don't care.)
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-15 19:29:52
Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree. You can also be indifferent. She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it.
Oh, really? Here's a question; Are you Muslim?
(I don't care.)
haha, no really.
He doesn't care, so he made it.
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-15 19:31:18
Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: He just wants you to admit that Hamas' actions are morally wrong. You either agree with that or disagree. You can also be indifferent. She wouldn't ask the speaker a question if she were indifferent to the matter. Good try though, you almost made it. Oh, really? Here's a question; Are you Muslim? (I don't care.) haha, no really. He doesn't care, so he made it.
Uh, wut?
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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