@Darki: sorry, quotes are randomly failing. But that was meant for Psyence. What I was trying to say (by making a silly example in my post) is generalizing people is not the way to go.
wurd.
I'm atheist and i dont look down on others beliefs, but i do look down on those that try to impose them and make up arguments with me as if trying to proove my own wrong. anyways a good religious mature debate is always nice, as long as both parties respect.
if both parties leave the debate having learned something new then everyone wins
except the HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE people...damn HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE people
:P
you dont always have to leave with learning something for win, you can always feel accomplished you just talked taboo and no one got hurt o.o
and also it's also nice to understand why a person thinks so different from you yet with as much passion.
thats why this atheist is always open for new ideas, but im not ever going to change my way of thinking, i think ive made my peace with atheism. Easier to follo anyways.
People interpret the Holly Texts differently. Some will quote things for their purposed and take them out of context. They will also use those quotes to justify their actions. The also say things like. It is written in (insert Holly Text) then it must be true etc...
Unrelated, but speaking of music I friggin love the chocobo theme in FFXIII! (just started recently playing it)
Wish I could get a DAT for it in FFXI :(
Vocals at the last half caught me off guard, actually sat in the menu listening to it all lol
these types of threads should be cause for automatic ban from forums. They never go anywhere and only make people cry/whine/*** at each other ...
you aren't going to get anywhere with any religion, political or race conversation no matter how true you addition may be! You will always be an atheist, racist, anarchist when you do so to someone.
Anyways. Why I'm pretty upset with your posts is that you're actually generalizing a specific group of people. 90%? lololol
yeah, assuming you've met 90 muslims out of a 100 and discussed with them...
Which brings up a question... Why would you want to criticize others based on their beliefs? Do you need to go after the JPs next for bowing? Do you need to go after Rap music next because it's not music according to most people?
Percentage is what I was taught in school. You want me to say 9 out of 10? I'm just saying in my experience, speaking with Muslims about their religions doesn't lead to very constructive discussion and I'm sure there's a way to change that. I can easily tolerate hearing a believer criticize atheism because I know what to answer him.
If I had said : "90% of Muslims in the world are pissed." then you could say I'm talking nonsense because I've met a few dozens. I talk about my experiences and what I see around me... I eat Laham Bajiine in some Lebanese stores (their Halal meat is clean which is nice to know) and have friends from so many cultures. I just don't get why a religion should be given a special status. It claims I'm an infidel and sinner and I'm not allowed to openly call it nonsense?
Since you're asking me a question... Let me try to answer it... and I have to sleep then :/
I do not criticize others for their beliefs. I criticize beliefs. But that's another thread. Critics are important for anything to develop. The ability to react positively to criticism is sign of a healthy mind and it shows confidence. The right to criticize is also very important. It was not always a given, and people died to gain this right over religion. This right is absent from many Muslim countries, but things will evolve.
Rap music is all about criticizing... It's actually the art of criticizing, to be heard, to scream out loud about injustice, in France is is used as a mean of expression by the Algerians and other minorities living a tough life in the suburbs and facing racial discrimination. If you had good reasons to criticize rap, you would be entitled to. Also, they wouldn't kill you in the name of Rap. Fun fact : RAP stands for Rythm & Poetry.
Japanese people bow out of respect yet they don't ask women to bow in a different way. However, just like in some religions, Japanese have a very archaic way of treating women. They're slowly evolving but it's gonna take a while. Just because we're criticizing religion doesn't mean it's the only thing needing critics.
these types of threads should be cause for automatic ban from forums. They never go anywhere and only make people cry/whine/*** at each other ...
you aren't going to get anywhere with any religion, political or race conversation no matter how true you addition may be! You will always be an atheist, racist, anarchist when you do so to someone.
Forum » Everything Else » Politics and Religion »
then they should erradicate this section overall.
these types of threads should be cause for automatic ban from forums.
You do realize this forum is for politics and religion, correct?
So...why on earth would the moderators ban a thread on the very topic for which the forum was created? Because -you- don't like the subject? Then don't post. It's really just that easy.
I know this from personal experience...I simply don't post on threads where I don't care for the topic. 8)
these types of threads should be cause for automatic ban from forums.
You do realize this forum is for politics and religion, correct?
So...why on earth would the moderators ban a thread on the very topic for which the forum was created? Because -you- don't like the subject? Then don't post. It's really just that easy.
I know this from personal experience...I simply don't post on threads where I don't care for the topic. 8)
dont worry i already owned him on my previous post.
We can agree that a mother and father is better than a single parent right? Muslims have the lowest divorce rate in any other group of people. I'd say most is better than all men.
I can add that in muslim religion in a marriage the man is the leader responsible for maintaining the wife, and the wife is supposed to obey her man; I think in part that is reason why divorce rates are lower. There might be some men out there who abuse that power (no different than in Western countries) only difference that in USA for example.. divorce is about 50% and in muslim countries (may)(bee) around 30-40%... due to that 10-20% of muslim women who fear their abusive husband, and fear the most the finger of shame pointed at them from the whole family, and the laws make it very difficult as well.
@4:00 This is kinda what the initial post was talking about. They take discrimination against their religion as if it was like people in America talking about race.
That can be said to any religion and person individually but it's the good things matter not the bad to yourself.
I mean tbh I really can't accept the idea of killing someone or myself to gain my point on anything...
I mean for real... why????? O_o;;
Except of course that person directs his anger on me. Then it'll be like but what did I do? lol
I feel like you're a morally sound person, and I respect you for that. I just hope that when you teach your children about the Qu'ran, they don't see the things that some see in it. I hope they see the positive things that you've obviously practiced putting into your own life.
wurd.
I'm atheist and i dont look down on others beliefs, but i do look down on those that try to impose them and make up arguments with me as if trying to proove my own wrong. anyways a good religious mature debate is always nice, as long as both parties respect.
I missed the part where someone is forcing you to become Muslim, because you sure are doing a lot of mud flinging towards a religion you're not even a part of. But since atheism is "easier to follow anyways," I wouldn't expect a mature decision on religion to come from you anyway.
PS: "pwned"
Quote:
I just don't get why a religion should be given a special status.
I don't get why you think you're so special because you're an atheist.
Notice they write the head part agreed by all scholars but the face part by many not all
To make showing face absolute forbidden ALL scholars have to agree otherwise it remains optional for woman to cover or not
And that's why many Islamic countries don't have veils a must
Trebold said:
Wearing veils, on the other hand, is something that is forced, and is not done out of humility. It's one-sided as well, "only women have to cover up". Are you really comparing these things to each other?
I'm confused now... So it's a must? Or is it optional?
Also, I've explained why they don the thing. A few pages back.
Which is the main reason why I'm regretting to post back here ><
Many: "not all". Implicitly stating, there are those which do force veils. lol, I can only imagine the kind of person you are in real life.. I'm guessing the kid who sits in class constantly trying to find ways to correct the professor. And everyone else just sighs aloud when they see you raise your hand.
There will always be a forcing veils as long as a lot of scholars see it as a must, by veils I mean the face veils not hijab the head one , the head veils are must 100%.
In my country most women who do put face veils they put it after getting married , it started to become more than cultural matter than religion. But if you look to Saudi arabia for example most women if not all puts face veils.
Anyway married men tend to tell or force their wives to wear Niqab (the one that shows two eyes only) Since they don't want anyone to see their faces.
None of the things you mentioned in that wall is actually correct.
1- Majority of Muslims are not Arabs.
2- Islam teaches us to respect other religions.
3- It is not in Islam to kill anyone who bad mouth Islam or Mohammed. In fact, it is mentioned in the Quran to not even bad-mouth anyone who talks about islam.
I can go on and on but, to answer your questions "How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?"
I don't blame you or any other Islam-hater, The image of Islam is being misrepresented because of the media world-wide. But a good start is to actually read about Islam and not base your argument on a southpark episode. After you do that, I'll be more than happy to get in a debate with you.
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.