Do you really expect me to change the past? The only thing that people can do on this earth, RIGHT NOW, is to affect the future. Every step you make in the present will shape the future. I firmly believe that the past repeats itself, but only because people allow it to. I don't care about that ***, I care about things happening IN MY LIFETIME. If you want to QQ over the past, be my guest.
Read my post again, and you'll see I reciprocated to exactly what you said.. I don't know your affiliations, and life has taught me to never try and assume anyones..
But to any outsider (including me) the very first line screams that you are trying to defend Christianity. Especially since I wasn't originally specifically replying to you.
To me (at least) you just said "all of the absolutely horrendous and attrocious acts that were committed by Christians in the past have no bearing in today's world", when in fact they have far more to do with it than any other 1 theme.
Okay look dude, I do respect you, even from before this argument, so please don't take this like you are personally being attacked (which it seems you're taking it pretty personally ATM)
I'm not saying you can change the past, I can't change that my race a few hundred years ago just kept holding people as slaves (which reduces them to animals more or less) I'm not even telling you to change your beliefs, all I'm saying is, is that Christianity is no higher up the 'abuse ladder' then Muslims..
It just really bothers me when I see things like this.. I hate, hate HATE double standards.. Sad thing is countless American's hold this double standard (just google around and look up any news story involving Muslims and look at the comments on it.. 9 times out of 10 you will see the very thing I'm talking about here.. )
You know the saying, don't throw bricks if you live in a glass house.. The Christian religion was the EXACT same..
In 500 years, even the most heartless and dispicible acts that Exremists carry out now, will be looked upon as the crusades are looked up on now..
In short the Muslim religion now, is nothing more then the Christian religion of the past.
Final note (and one you should really contemplate): If you can't admit the flaws and shortcomings that are present now, how can you ever expect something to 'grow' and 'evolve'?
Nah, man, I'm not getting angry with you. It's just a thrill for me to debate, especially on topics I'm interested in.
My most recent post is pointing out that I try not to have these double standards.
But, the only reason the Christian religion ever changed, was because of the people who made it change. The women who fought for their rights, the blacks who fought for their rights, and all the people who weren't women, or who weren't black, who still helped them fight for their rights. If you think that, "Oh, Christianity changed, I'll just wait and let Islam change without saying anything" is going to work, I don't know what to say to you.
Some quotes that I think convey your point. But also note, that I agree with these quotes, which is why I've studied history. Knowing what occurred in the past let's me know the things that are capable of happening in the wake of my existence.
"To be ignorant of what happened before you were born is to remain always a child." - Cicero (-106 to -43)
"Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana (1863-1952)
"The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you can see." - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
No I don't think it will change without someone challenging popular belief.. I'm an astronomy nut, with a secondary interest in the workings of the human body.. I know well that nothing changes if left alone.. But my original post in this thread (of tonight) is that just quoting the Qu'ran does absolutely 0 and that 'trying to make them see the light' is 100% the same thing I do when I DO (doesn't happen often, anymore at least) try to point out the inconsistencies of the Bible and everything contained within in.
And with that being said, would you (anyone) actually take the time to listen to what I had to say, and try to see things from my point of view? The answer is no (or it's so rare someone actually does, that it might as well be non-existent) That's what you believe me just randomly quoting things from your book of belief isn't going to change what you believe, unless you were on the verge of changing your mind to begin with.
I don't really know why, but it does seem very difficult to criticise or question Islam without angering someone.
Sadly, many Christians seem to get angry instead of returning helpful answers when our 'religion' is criticised too.
The quote in this image shows simple decent logic, but on it's own does not manage to suport Atheism any more than it suports Christianity.
God is both able and willing to prevent evil...
Phoenix.Darki said:
If #3, you then have to find the answer to the new question to end the logic gate, because the two parameters- "Is God willing to prevent evil" and "Is God able" are not sufficient enough to cover all the posibilities and give an absolute result.
Many people seem to have not read the very first three chapers of The Bible, in Genesis, before talking about this subject.
I'm not really sure how to word it well, but a third parameter to the query should be added, something like:
"God {does|does not} abide with mankind's disobediant decision for our own authority"
(Adam and Eve disobeyed God's single rule, desiring to become like God themselves, which resulted in God accepting that mankind has chosen to live without His rule and authority, and therefore without God himself.)
So...
Is God both able and willing to prevent evil, and going to take leadership of our world, disregarding mankind's choice to live without his rule and power? (also ignoring atheists and others that do not want God.)
--> Then God is a dictator.
Is God both able and willing to prevent evil, but not going to disregard mankind's choice to live without his rule and power?
--> Then God can and wants to prevent evil, but requires us to honor his authority and to ask Him so that His power may work through our lives.
is god able to make a rock so heavy he can't even lift it himself?
No I don't think it will change without someone challenging popular belief.. I'm an astronomy nut, with a secondary interest in the workings of the human body.. I know well that nothing changes if left alone.. But my original post in this thread (of tonight) is that just quoting the Qu'ran does absolutely 0 and that 'trying to make them see the light' is 100% the same thing I do when I DO (doesn't happen often, anymore at least) try to point out the inconsistencies of the Bible and everything contained within in.
And with that being said, would you (anyone) actually take the time to listen to what I had to say, and try to see things from my point of view? The answer is no (or it's so rare someone actually does, that it might as well be non-existent) That's what you believe me just randomly quoting things from your book of belief isn't going to change what you believe, unless you were on the verge of changing your mind to begin with.
The reason I quoted the Qu'ran initially(a few pages back) was because someone was convinced that an ideal didn't exist in their book. I presented evidence from the Qu'ran in hopes of it being refuted, however, no attempt was made. I realize it is of little consequence to the person I'm debating with, but if it turns the wheels in an outside party's brain, then I've successfully made my statement. The last thing I want people to do is stand idly by, or to be unarmed when faced with knowledge of a subject.
Any PH-D professor(Muslim educated by the Qu'ran or by imams who've studied the Qu'ran) can tell a 3rd-grader(typical American Islamic knowledge) that they don't understand the complexities of gravitational force, and to "get back to them when they've done their research". But I feel as though the PH-D professors in this forum bought an ink-jet and printed out their diploma. And when a 9th-grader in the subject(me) debates them on this, shouldn't they have some means of a plausible defense?
But where's the covering/masking/veiling the face part in the Qur'an you've listed?
Bold it for me, I'm feeling stupid today. That, or I need a new pair of glasses.
Oh, and the guy mentioned the Qur'an didn't mention to cover the face... so where?
I'm not really trying to defend any religion, but to start ***up from "I can't draw a pic of a guy with a bomb as a hat" freedom, to this... is really silly.
But where's the covering/masking/veiling the face part in the Qur'an you've listed?
Bold it for me, I'm feeling stupid today. That, or I need a new pair of glasses.
Oh, and the guy mentioned the Qur'an didn't mention to cover the face... so where?
I'm not really trying to defend any religion, but to start ***up from "I can't draw a pic of a guy with a bomb as a hat" freedom, to this... is really silly.
Yes, because people dying over that is really silly too. Life, or better yet, the absence of life is quite the silly thing, hmmm? Theo Van Goh, stabbed to death for making a cartoon because people are butt-hurt over some lmfaoprophet(SAD <- lol, just thought of this actually, instead of saying "SAW" there, I think I'll throw in "SAD", because it's sad that anyone could think that dude was righteous), yes, silly indeed.
Muslim women cover their heads because God so directed in His final book, the Glorious Qur'an. The head cover is specifically mentioned in 24:31. This instruction from God is only one aspect of a wider context of purity of thought and action for men and women.
Islam has very strict rules against adultery and fornication, and introduces many cautious measures to ensure the prevention and avoidance of such sins. One measure is the prescription that men and women should avoid intermingling as far as possible (see Qur'an 33:53). This is why men and women pray in separate areas or separate rows in the mosque. Another measure is that men and women should cover the specified areas of their bodies the sight of which arouse sexual desire in others (see Qur'an 7:26; 33:59). Yet another measure is that men and women should lower or turn their gaze away from looking at a person of the opposite sex (see Qur'an 24:31).
The idea that the head covering is a sign of subjection of women is found not in the Qur'an but in another religious book with which the Qur'an does not always agree. That other book teaches that women should have a sign of authority over their heads because man was not created from woman, but woman from man. The same book says that a man should not cover his head because he is the image and glory of God; and a woman should cover her head because she is the glory of man. The Qur'an does not identify with any of these ideas. The Qur'anic prescription of head cover does not in any way imply the subjection of women.
People often confuse the Islamic prescriptions with ideas they are already familiar with. Therefore when they see Muslim women covering their heads they hastily conclude that it is for the same reasons mentioned in some other religious book. But to gain a better understanding of Islamic prescriptions, they have to be viewed within the framework of Islamic thought.
Another mistake made by many is as follows. When they hear that the Qur'an includes the story of Adam and Eve they conclude that the Qur'an also upholds the idea that Eve was responsible for the fall of man, and that the subjection of women is a necessary result of God's curse on them. On the contrary, the Qur'an is free of such ideas. In the Qur'an, Adam and Eve were both approached by the Devil. The Devil did not approach Adam through Eve. Adam is therefore specifically blamed in the Qur'an 20:121. In other verses they are both blamed; but in no verse is Eve alone singled out to be blamed for the fall of man. Although men are charged with the responsibility of leadership in Islam too, this is in view of the practical dynamics of human interaction as prescribed by God. It is not because of a curse on women.
It would be a mistake to take the prescriptions of Islam and associate them with ideas held outside of Islam. Within Islam, women are capable of as much good as men, and they stand before God equally honored.
Remember again, people. This is from a Pro-Islamic site stating the justifications of veiling their women. This site is trying to argue that veiling ISN'T about subjugation, but rather, it's about empowering women... Note that they don't argue what semiimortal is trying to argue. This site is saying that the Hadith's phrasing that the veil is used as subjugation is wrong. If you read it, you can see that they implicitly understand that these clothes are to be worn, BUT the person isn't supposed to think that it's demeaning to them. This Pro-Islamic site using those same Qu'ranic verses that I cited earlier.
Example: "I didn't go shopping last Thursday." In colloquial speech, this signifies that the person is saying that while they do in fact shop, they did not do it last Thursday.
I mean like if your so interested in Islam why not *gasp* read the English version of the Quran ya?
Instead your posting on a gaming forum and demanding answers?
Thus far, I see nothing of value that has been mentioned.
I haven't read all 8 pages but it's probably the same bull crap fighting like this page is.
Not knocking anyone but just saying~
And no I'd rather not get involved in another religion thread, sorry; just trying to change up the mood >_>
P.S. - (For the Muslims posting here) creating fights will only give people a better reason to hate us...
/endkey.
That's actually what we're discussing here. Quotes from the Qu'ran turned into Islamic Law. Would you rather me read the Qu'ran and take every word for complete truth? I think I may write a book of complete non-sense and ask religious people to take every word as absolute truth.
I can already guess what their reaction will be... lol, the same reaction to what I see in their book.
Wrote 3 pages on Words, but I decided not to seeing the recent lolpost >_>
I've explained what books from any religion are for. Not bothered to post them again.
Oh, and you still didn't answer the question regarding the veil and the Qur'an (loldebates...).
Not sure why I'm defending the guy you posted about.
Trying to keep justice alive? Lmao, I give up.
Wrote 3 pages on Words, but I decided not to seeing the recent lolpost >_>
I've explained what books from any religion are for. Not bothered to post them again.
Oh, and you still didn't answer the question regarding the veil and the Qur'an (loldebates...).
Not sure why I'm defending the guy you posted about.
Trying to keep justice alive? Lmao, I give up.
Justice? The property of being 'Just' is based on law, so I'm assuming you are trying to be to be Islamic Law 'Just' and not Civil/Common Law 'Just'. lulz
Qur'an (24:31) - "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known."
That's actually what we're discussing here. Quotes from the Qu'ran turned into Islamic Law. Would you rather me read the Qu'ran and take every word for complete truth? I think I may write a book of complete non-sense and ask religious people to take every word as absolute truth.
I can already guess what their reaction will be... lol, the same reaction to what I see in their book.
I won't even bother myself and reply that.
This thread is full of ***.
Qur'an (33:59) - "Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..."
If you're illiterate, that's not my problem. The original poster said that no where in the Qu'ran, did it to tell the women to cover up as they do in today's society. He was trying to state that people enforce those rules and that they don't originate anywhere from the Qu'ran. These two passages, "33:59 and 24:31" are what imams are using as justification for enforcing these laws. And some countries that enforce the laws go to extreme punishments as this:
If you can't even remember what you're arguing for, or why you're arguing... I don't know what to say.
That's actually what we're discussing here. Quotes from the Qu'ran turned into Islamic Law. Would you rather me read the Qu'ran and take every word for complete truth? I think I may write a book of complete non-sense and ask religious people to take every word as absolute truth.
I can already guess what their reaction will be... lol, the same reaction to what I see in their book.
I won't even bother myself and reply that.
This thread is full of ***.
That's actually what we're discussing here. Quotes from the Qu'ran turned into Islamic Law. Would you rather me read the Qu'ran and take every word for complete truth? I think I may write a book of complete non-sense and ask religious people to take every word as absolute truth.
I can already guess what their reaction will be... lol, the same reaction to what I see in their book.
I won't even bother myself and reply that.
This thread is full of ***.
That's actually what we're discussing here. Quotes from the Qu'ran turned into Islamic Law. Would you rather me read the Qu'ran and take every word for complete truth? I think I may write a book of complete non-sense and ask religious people to take every word as absolute truth.
I can already guess what their reaction will be... lol, the same reaction to what I see in their book.
I won't even bother myself and reply that.
This thread is full of ***.
^QFT
Probably gonna be killed for this, but those are my sentiments to how you're acting.
If you can't even remember what you're arguing for, or why you're arguing... I don't know what to say.
All started with this:
Trebold said:
Ragnarok.Action said:
Rafik i said this before and ill say it again, our book dont say put mask on woman face... and u say under like we put our womans in boxes..
it the thing on hair and all face shown and its custom not part of the religion what u want to see her *** to know if she the person or no? i agree with you there is some old custom and stuff like that we arabs even stagger at it.
but man be fair and blame the HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE People not the whole thing and im not mad or something it just sad when ppl like u miss understand what "really" going on. and sad to see shitty stuff happen in islam name.
and btw bro There is 21 arab countries and in 20 of them there is no law or the imposition of the veil idk where u got that one from. which means US/UK woman dont have to were anything.
and what u mean "treat your women way u do" what do u you came here? before u been in this society? or you just follow the crowd and beelive anything?
How come Islamic men have no problems staring at American/UK and other none of Islamic descent women? Oh hey, but let us stone our own. i have no idea about that but in my opinion lol "muslim man staring" what is the difference arab or foreign it same and called "rude" or it become big deal cuze he muslim lots ppl staring.... arabs indiain japanese i bet in US and UK too.
anyway this is boring ill leave this ***and ill keep play in peace, in the end it policies on the top of me and you, not in our hands to change. peace \o/
Actually it does, both the Qu'ran and Hadith mention veiling of women. It's a shame some Muslims don't even know their own book. :/
Which you didn't and couldn't after multiple posts prove from a verse in their Qur'an (only bunch of copy/paste from multiple websites)
And that video... just looking at the preview picture I can tell it's not worth watching... Next thing I'll see from you is that Islam enforces rape... lololol
If you can't even remember what you're arguing for, or why you're arguing... I don't know what to say.
All started with this:
Trebold said:
Ragnarok.Action said:
Rafik i said this before and ill say it again, our book dont say put mask on woman face... and u say under like we put our womans in boxes..
it the thing on hair and all face shown and its custom not part of the religion what u want to see her *** to know if she the person or no? i agree with you there is some old custom and stuff like that we arabs even stagger at it.
but man be fair and blame the HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE People not the whole thing and im not mad or something it just sad when ppl like u miss understand what "really" going on. and sad to see shitty stuff happen in islam name.
and btw bro There is 21 arab countries and in 20 of them there is no law or the imposition of the veil idk where u got that one from. which means US/UK woman dont have to were anything.
and what u mean "treat your women way u do" what do u you came here? before u been in this society? or you just follow the crowd and beelive anything?
How come Islamic men have no problems staring at American/UK and other none of Islamic descent women? Oh hey, but let us stone our own. i have no idea about that but in my opinion lol "muslim man staring" what is the difference arab or foreign it same and called "rude" or it become big deal cuze he muslim lots ppl staring.... arabs indiain japanese i bet in US and UK too.
anyway this is boring ill leave this ***and ill keep play in peace, in the end it policies on the top of me and you, not in our hands to change. peace \o/
Actually it does, both the Qu'ran and Hadith mention veiling of women. It's a shame some Muslims don't even know their own book. :/
Which you didn't and couldn't after multiple posts prove from a verse in their Qur'an (only bunch of copy/paste from multiple websites)
And that video... just looking at the preview picture I can tell it's not worth watching... Next thing I'll see from you is that Islam enforces rape... lololol
I'll agree with you that it's just copy and paste from ***. That *** just happens to be the Qu'ran. :P
If you can't even remember what you're arguing for, or why you're arguing... I don't know what to say.
All started with this:
Trebold said:
Ragnarok.Action said:
Rafik i said this before and ill say it again, our book dont say put mask on woman face... and u say under like we put our womans in boxes..
it the thing on hair and all face shown and its custom not part of the religion what u want to see her *** to know if she the person or no? i agree with you there is some old custom and stuff like that we arabs even stagger at it.
but man be fair and blame the HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE People not the whole thing and im not mad or something it just sad when ppl like u miss understand what "really" going on. and sad to see shitty stuff happen in islam name.
and btw bro There is 21 arab countries and in 20 of them there is no law or the imposition of the veil idk where u got that one from. which means US/UK woman dont have to were anything.
and what u mean "treat your women way u do" what do u you came here? before u been in this society? or you just follow the crowd and beelive anything?
How come Islamic men have no problems staring at American/UK and other none of Islamic descent women? Oh hey, but let us stone our own. i have no idea about that but in my opinion lol "muslim man staring" what is the difference arab or foreign it same and called "rude" or it become big deal cuze he muslim lots ppl staring.... arabs indiain japanese i bet in US and UK too.
anyway this is boring ill leave this ***and ill keep play in peace, in the end it policies on the top of me and you, not in our hands to change. peace \o/
Actually it does, both the Qu'ran and Hadith mention veiling of women. It's a shame some Muslims don't even know their own book. :/
Which you didn't and couldn't after multiple posts prove from a verse in their Qur'an (only bunch of copy/paste from multiple websites)
And that video... just looking at the preview picture I can tell it's not worth watching... Next thing I'll see from you is that Islam enforces rape... lololol
I'll agree with you that it's just copy and paste from ***. That *** just happens to be the Qu'ran. :P
I don't disagree with that, any religious book to me is a bunch of stories.
But only special people *cough*you*cough* can easily think of them as a set of rules.
They are a set of rules to thousands of people. In fact, the prophet Muhammad is supposed to be the ideal role model for men, despite all the morally questionable things he'd done in his lifetime.
I wonder where did OP go...
He/She seems like a troll, always creating topics like these (Religion, blahblahblah) and leave them be.
He/She may seem interested but in fact they just copy/pasta'd it :(
I wonder where did OP go...
He/She seems like a troll, always creating topics like these (Religion, blahblahblah) and leave them be.
He/She may seem interested but in fact they just copy/pasta'd it :(
The OP didn't copy/pasta'd this. In fact, he was very active in the other religion forum found here: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/?topic_id=8623
Rafik i said this before and ill say it again, our book dont say put mask on woman face... and u say under like we put our womans in boxes..
Then why do you demand your women to put veils on and say its for religion?
Because they do believe its from religion , that what they understand from holy quran and sonah :
The holy quran actually stated single line regarding this matter but some schools understand it in a way that its a must to put veils, others understand in opposite way.
Al-Nur (I am muslim myself so I know about this)
024.031 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss.
However the bold part doesn't have to be the prove that Quran saying its a must (Some people understand that this line means hiding the face , others understand that this line mean Hijab the one you put on hair only)
different understanding to this matter leads to two possible groups:
1) group that believe its a must to cover entire body except face/hand
2) group that believe its a must to cover entire body but one eye or both eyes
Both can be right (You have the right to choose since its not quran/religion matter but schools understanding (different mathaheb))
For the second group their reason that woman might be too beautiful that would make people staring , by people they don't mean non-muslims only but muslims too (some old men do stare alot more than young ones lol)
perhaps this link is useful:
http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html
for married women if putting niqab/veils make the husband pleased then its better for her to do so , in this matter its not for the sake of religion but for the sake of her husband (hope you get what I am trying to say here).
Rafik i said this before and ill say it again, our book dont say put mask on woman face... and u say under like we put our womans in boxes..
Then why do you demand your women to put veils on and say its for religion?
Because they do believe its from religion , that what they understand from holy quran and sonah :
The holy quran actually stated single line regarding this matter but some schools understand it in a way that its a must to put veils, others understand in opposite way.
Al-Nur (I am muslim myself so I know about this)
024.031 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss.
However the bold part doesn't have to be the prove that Quran saying its a must (Some people understand that this line means hiding the face , others understand that this line mean Hijab the one you put on hair only)
different understanding to this matter leads to two possible groups:
1) group that believe its a must to cover entire body except face/hand
2) group that believe its a must to cover entire body but one eye or both eyes
Both can be right (You have the right to choose since its not quran/religion matter but schools understanding (different mathaheb))
For the second group their reason that woman might be too beautiful that would make people staring , by people they don't mean non-muslims only but muslims too (some old men do stare alot more than young ones lol)
perhaps this link is useful:
http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html
for married women if putting niqab/veils make the husband pleased then its better for her to do so , in this matter its not for the sake of religion but for the sake of her husband (hope you get what I am trying to say here).
I think I understand what you mean~
I know a lot of people are going to come back and say "Well the Hijab is degrading women" etc etc, but honestly I can see the good in it.
I am not muslim myself, but I do like the idea of the respect it can show; Not only for the women covering up and keeping their bodies as a 'gift' for their husband (*Gift in the sense that others may not look upon that which was meant for your eyes, and your hands only), but also the men not staring and being like "O_O/drool" over anything with a pair of breasts.
I'm not sure where a lot of the problem lies e___e. People complain when women are too slutty, but then when people decide that they'd like to be modest, there are complaints still then ><
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.