Yoko Taro and Hyung-Tae Kim met up at an IGN interview together:
Yoko Taro, Director, Nier: Automata: Stellar Blade is a really amazing game. I’d say that it’s much better than NieR:Automata. I have been acquainted with Mr. Kim’s works since Magna Carta: Tears of Blood. Your illustrations are of a very high quality. Magna Carta: Tears of Blood came out before Drakengard, the first game I directed. So while I’m the older one, to me, in this industry you’re my senior.
Kim: Really? Should I behave a bit more superior then?
Yoko: In Japan, you’re well known by gamers as a legendary developer! When Blade & Soul came out, I remember being amazed by its 3D graphics. I think you directed the game’s art. Not just the illustrations, but also the 3D models were very well done. I was surprised by the quality of Korean games when I saw it.
Kim: I always simply create what I want to create. But without talented staff, I wouldn’t have been able to make games like that. Do I sound modest enough?
Mr. Yoko, it has to be said that you are also well known for your unique vision as a developer. This was already apparent in Drakengard, your first project as director. Was it a long road to become a director?
Yoko: Actually, the person that was directing it at the time became busy with another project. I was asked to take over, so reaching the position of director happened quite naturally. At the time, Square Enix asked me to make a game like Dynasty Warriors, but set in a fantasy world. I thought that would be challenging to pull off, but since I was getting paid I said, "I’ll do it." There weren’t any instructions for the world setting and scenario, so I simply did what I wanted in those areas. I think this resulted in a quite unique product. It was a very dark scenario, and I remember being asked why that was necessary. It ended in a fight (between Yoko and Square Enix). Speaking of which, Mr. Kim, I wanted to ask you if there were any fights with Sony Interactive Enteratainment (SIE), since they are publishing Stellar Blade.
Kim: (Glances at SIE staff members in the room and laughs.) The people at SIE are… very, very nice!
Yoko: SIE’s staff members are pulling faces I’ve never seen before. I wish the readers of this article could see it!
Let’s not go too far in this direction, shall we? Mr. Yoko, you said that you think Stellar Blade is much better than NieR:Automata. What makes you think so?
Yoko: The graphics are completely next-gen quality and the character design’s direction is amazing. The cool male characters and cute female characters unique to Mr. Kim’s style are really appealing. Shops in RPGs often have a close-up shot of the shopkeeper, which I don’t like because I think it feels unnatural. Stellar Blade has a shot like that too, but the shopkeeper was so cute that I didn’t mind! Her cuteness felt more important than any design choices.
Kim: Actually, this has been a problem for us. Many users say that the girl at that shop is cuter than the main character… I guess we need to make her the main character in our next game.
Yoko: It’s just a matter of taste. Stellar Blade’s protagonist EVE is really appealing too. Your art style really appeals to a Japanese audience. Stellar Blade’s graphics, setting and characters are really a style I think Japanese gamers love. If you were to show someone that has no prior knowledge NieR: Automata and Stellar Blade, I think almost all of them would pick Stellar Blade. A white-haired character like 2B is not as conventional.
Kim: I guess I would get in trouble if I agreed with that statement. Seriously though, for me, NieR: Automata is like an inviolable holy grace. The visuals and story are so special that it is simply not possible to imitate. Stellar Blade is Shift Up's first console title. Please see us as a cute new kid on the block.
Mr. Kim, what do you think it is that makes 2B such a special character?
Kim: From her white hair to her eye patch and her black clothes with white stitches, everything about her is appealing to me. At the time, her character design was quite different from what was trending, but she still became beloved by many players. Now, both her looks and personally have created a new stream. She has become a brand of her own, which is a real achievement.
Mr. Yoko, how did you come up with such an unconventional character as 2B?
Yoko: In a battle action game with a sci-fi setting, a conventional character would be a male character that shoots a gun, wearing clothes reminiscent of the United States Marine Corps. But there’s already Halo and other games like that. It didn’t make sense for me to make something like that. I wouldn’t be able to do that better than Western developers anyway, since we’re further away from that culturally. I wanted to make a different style of game that has less competition. That’s why we went for a sci-fi battle action game with a female protagonist clad in black and blindfolded. At the time there wasn’t anything like it, but now that Stellar Blade is about to enter the room I feel it will soon become a crowded market!
Kim: Your games are way too unique to be imitated. I wouldn’t worry.
Yoko: People never praise me like that in Japan. South Korea is such a nice country! Actually, I kind of knew that Stellar Blade was going to be compared with NieR: Automata, and I told Mr. Kim when we first met. If you actually play it, you’ll instantly realize that it’s a very different game, but a delicate female character doing cool action is bound to draw comparisons. If Stellar Blade would have been the same game with a macho male character, I think people wouldn’t have pointed out the similarities. It just happens to be that there are not many games with a similar style.
Kim: I agree. There simply aren’t many games with a female warrior fighting in a post-apocalyptic setting. NieR:Automata had a very big influence on me, so I can understand that people get NieR: Automata vibes. But actually I was inspired by many other things as well, mainly manga, anime and games from the 1980s and ’90s. I think that the people that enjoyed culture from that era will feel nostalgic when playing Stellar Blade. I’m not the kind of developer who is skilled at implementing the newest trends. Stellar Blade is simply a culmination of inspirations from my favorite culture and reinterpreting that for modern times.
Mr. Kim has mentioned Battle Angel Alita and Blade Runner as works he was inspired by. How about you, Mr. Yoko?
Yoko: The work I was most inspired by is Neon Genesis Evangelion. I thank you for praising NieR: Automata’s story, but actually it’s pretty much just a retelling of Evangelion, so there’s not much originality to it. I don’t really watch recent movies, so I’m mostly inspired by memories of works I saw in the past.
Kim: I was inspired by Evangelion as well. It’s not easy to create something that surpasses your inspiration source. In that regard, NieR:Automata has a unique taste that only you could make. I really envy that. I’m a visualist and not a storyteller. I have always focused on how something looks, so I can’t compare to Mr. Yoko when it comes to the story department, but I believe that Stellar Blade’s gameplay makes up for that shortcoming.
Mr. Yoko mentioned that he went for a less conventional character as a business decision, which I find interesting as he is widely seen as an auteur. How about you, Mr. Kim? Can you be business-minded when working on your games?
Kim: I try to find the right balance between business and development. For some games I take a business approach, for others I don’t. Stellar Blade is one of the latter. This time I made something I genuinely like. I’m not particularly gifted as a businessman, so rather than analyzing the market and monitoring the numbers, I tend to just make what I like and what I believe gamers will enjoy.
Yoko: So you make games as an artist without thinking about business too much and still have your own company with 300 employees, while I think about business all the time and don’t even have my own company yet? That’s strange… I guess it’s because I’ve been a slave to Square Enix for so many years. Or I guess I should say I was enslaved by Yosuke Saito, NieR’s producer. It’s all his fault! Haha.
Kim: Isn’t that a little dangerous to say!? There are many people that help me out with business decisions. The team does all the hard work while I walk around greeting people and pretending to be a professional. The business side is in safe hands this way, haha.
Yoko: I don’t have any friends that would do that for me. I guess my human qualities can’t compare with yours either.
Mr. Yoko, how do you find the right balance between business and creativity?
Yoko: For me, it depends on the phase of development. I start with thinking about the business side, but by the end not much anymore. So at first I listen to what the publisher wants from me, but later I don’t.
Kim: That sounds like a great strategy!.
Let’s switch topics again. Mr. Kim mentioned that he believes Stellar Blade’s gameplay makes up for his shortcomings as a storyteller. Mr. Yoko, what did you think of Stellar Blade’s action?
Yoko: It’s a lot of fun. At first, I couldn’t beat the first stage’s boss. The action is very deep. Overcoming challenges by mastering the action felt great. In NieR:Automata, the action is much simpler, but there’s a reason for that. Since many of Square Enix’s audience are RPG players, many of them aren’t that familiar with action games and they prefer to focus on the story. This is why we went for simple gameplay that can easily make the player feel good. Stellar Blade is a much more challenging game, which I thought was interesting.
Kim: We do have a Story Mode for players less used to action games, and there are quite a few support features to help such players. I don’t think we made it too difficult. Actually, I’m not very good at action games either, so I didn’t want to make a game that I can’t beat myself. I encourage players to not be intimidated and just give it a try. During development, I complained about the difficulty if I couldn’t advance to the next segment, but one of the planners showed me how easy it was for them. They said, “Look, it’s already this easy – making it even easier wouldn’t feel right.” But I wanted to be sure that the game wasn’t too difficult in my own eyes. I want every type of player to be able to enjoy the game and see it through to the end. Stellar Blade is a game that has a lot more to offer than just combat, so I hope RPG players will give it a try too.
Yoko: I’ll play Stellar Blade on Story Mode and use all the support features when it releases.
So you both want players to be able to casually enjoy your games. At the same time, due to the rise of the Soulsborne genre, we are living in a period in which it’s OK for games to be difficult. With Final Fantasy XVI being developed as a pure action game, Square Enix’s games are leaning more and more toward the action genre as well. How do you approach game design and difficulty balance in such a climate?
Kim: When it comes to how difficult a game should be, I think that there is no correct answer. It’s true that there are more and more difficult games due to the popularity of Soulsborne games, and I have been inspired by the genre myself. That being said, since games like that usually have no difficulty settings, it is extremely hard to get the perfect difficulty balance. For Stellar Blade, we wanted a game that can satisfy players who want a challenge as well as players who want to focus on the story, and we did our best to get the balance right for that.
Yoko: When looking at Soulsborne games from a business perspective, you can see that FromSoftware invented the idea of selling difficulty as a product. Until then, it was the trend to make things more casual and stress-free, but they made stress in itself a product. However, since this is Hidetaka Miyazaki’s invention, I don’t see any reason to try to copy that. I would rather invent something different instead.
While NieR:Automata might have been made intentionally simple, it does have that quality of smooth-feeling control you would expect from a game codeveloped by PlatinumGames. I would like to know what Mr. Kim thought about NieR:Automata’s action.
Kim: I think that NieR:Automata’s action is a simplified version of PlatinumGames’ combat logic. I see it as the ideal entry point for PlatinumGames newcomers and anyone can pick up and play. I think that after playing NieR:Automata, many gamers got hooked to their stylish action… Oh sorry, am I sounding like a commercial for PlatinumGames right now? Bayonetta 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, so I really want players to discover their games.
Speaking of Bayonetta, while a bit different as a character, she is yet another female protagonist known for her stylish action. Was that part of the reason that Mr. Yoko wanted to work together with PlatinumGames for NieR: Automata?
Yoko: No, that wasn’t part of the reason. Even though Bayonetta is an action game that features a female protagonist, I think it’s quite different. To me, the fact that she never takes off her glasses is what makes her unique as a character. Her style is quite different from 2B.
Kim: With Mr. Yoko’s vision and Akihiko Yoshida’s design, NieR:Automata has such a strong and unique flavor to it. The more we talk about it, I keep feeling that Stellar Blade cannot compete.
Yoko: I wouldn’t say that. Stellar Blade actually makes me quite jealous. It’s a game with a great concept and amazing graphics. The product shows how you and your studio’s staff were working on it very hard together. As someone who works together with development studios as an outsider, it’s not possible to share my vision and ideas for details at the same level as you can. I really envy that.
Kim: I think it’s very important to be in the same room when developing games. I believe that you worked on NieR:Automata at PlatinumGames’ office to directly collaborate with their team. Sitting next to each other, discussing things, sharing opinions and solving problems together is crucial if you want to actually finish your game. For players, it might look like a lot of consumer games are released every year, but even more games end up stranded no matter how hard you worked on it. Being able to finish making a game at all feels like a miracle.
Yoko: It’s definitely true that releasing a game is a lot more difficult than most consumers think. Being able to make it to the store shelves alone is something I have respect for. By the way, I just remembered another element of Stellar Blade that impressed me. There’s a strange old man who appears at some point. His character model is extremely well done. It’s the same with illustrations, but while 3D models for attractive young characters is something any game has, doing the same for older characters demands a lot more skill. A game that can depict a convincing old man just has to be good.
Kim: Games developed in Asia often use cel-shaded graphics and other forms of stylized art, rather than focusing on realism. The same can be said for Stellar Blade, but at the same time we did put an emphasis on getting the most out of next-gen engines to aim for high-quality visuals. We developed the game while improving our technology, and I think it is fair to say that we can confidently release Stellar Blade standing side by side with other high-profile games. However, development of technology and using more realistic assets is very expensive. You have to use a tremendous amount of money if you want the graphics to look just a little bit above a certain level. This is a difficult issue our industry is facing right now.
Although the end was already in sight, when both of you directed your first game in the early 2000s, Japan was still seen as the big leader of the video game industry. Now, 20 years later, while Japanese games have seen a big revival, there are still some elements where Japan is falling behind. Especially when it comes to graphics, very few Japanese studios deliver games that look as polished as Stellar Blade. How do you see the power balance between Japanese games and South Korean games today?
Yoko: Japan found success with not just games, but also anime and manga early on. After being exported to the West and other Asian countries, games, manga and anime have evolved in their own ways in each region respectively. As for games, it has proven difficult for Japanese companies to implement Western systems. Japan has a long history with companies developing their own engines, and it was hard to move away from that. We were very late with incorporating rendering tools and middleware from the West. Even to this day, many schools don’t teach this to new developers. I think that Japanese people are not good at adapting technology from overseas. Chinese and South Korean games were much faster to use engines like Unreal for games with a Japanese aesthetic.”
Kim: What you say may be true, but it has to be said that Japanese games have a huge presence in 2024. It is no understatement to say that Japanese content is completely back on top. Big anticipated titles that will be released later in the year, I think things look very positive. China has great momentum as well. They have a lot of hits, especially when it comes to mobile games. I think their momentum is so great that they might have more hits on their hands then anywhere else right now for mobile games. South Korean developers have a tendency to follow trends. If there’s some new popular thing, everyone tends to go in that direction. I have the impression that most developers here have tended to lean on mobile MMO games even more recently, but I think it’s important to release games for other platforms too. We have been making mobile games here at Shift Up too, but I’m happy that we can release Stellar Blade as a PS5 exclusive. I hope it can trigger more South Korean studios to develop for other platforms.
Until about 10 years ago, console games were mostly either from the West or from Japan. Today, other Asian countries such as China, South Korea and Taiwan have become strong competitors. What kind of differences do you think can be seen in the aesthetics, fashion and so on between games from different Asian countries?
Kim: I don’t think I can completely grasp the difference per country, but I think that today Chinese games actually understand best what otaku gamers want. There are Chinese games that seem to incorporate these elements even better than Japanese games, which I find fascinating. I myself am not talented enough to follow the same direction, so I hope that by adding my own distinct taste, our games can be enjoyed by a wide audience.
Yoko: I didn’t try to make NieR: Automata a game for the otaku audience either. The project started with the decision of moving away from Western macho games. This resulted in a game about an attractive female character wielding a sword, which might look like something for otaku, but I think NieR: Automata’s world building isn’t leaning in that direction. You might remember that there are abandoned futuristic buildings in the game. We gave them a futuristic look rather than something contemporary because it is easier to fake it that way. People know what contemporary architecture looks like, so it is easy to notice if something looks off. You don’t have the same problem with futuristic architecture. I think the two main reasons behind NieR:Automata looking like something with otaku appeal came from the limited budget and the fact that we wanted to move away from Western conventions.
Are there any parts in Stellar Blade that you think Japanese developers wouldn’t have been able to come up with?
Yoko: I wouldn’t say that we’re not able to come up with it, but we can’t keep up with the level of technology anymore. Stellar Blade is of a really high technological level, to the extent that I’m looking forward to seeing how Western gamers will react to it. NieR: Automata’s camera was from a pretty far-off angle and it wasn’t of the same standard as high-profile Western games. In that regard, I think that Stellar Blade has crossed a big barrier. The quality of not just the characters but also the environments is also on par with Western games. I’m honored to hear that you were inspired by NieR: Automata when creating Stellar Blade, but I hope that in the future we can see Western games inspired by Stellar Blade.
Kim: I’m very flattered to hear that, but I believe that the quality of Japanese games is still top class. Japanese developers know how to differentiate themselves from their Western counterparts. I think that NieR: Automata is so beloved throughout the world for the very reason of it being different from Western games.
Both of you are developers with fans throughout the world. I would like to end this interview by going back to the roots. What originally inspired you to make games?
Yoko: The first time I knew I wanted to make games was when I played Gradius. The games I had played until then all just had one background screen. When you beat a stage in games like Space Invaders, Xevious and Dig Dug, you just got a new challenge on the same screen. But in Gradius, the scenery changed as I progressed through different stages, and it even had an ending. It made me realize that games could tell stories. I knew that computers were going to become more powerful over the years, which led me to thinking that movies and television were eventually going to be completely replaced by interactive media. I thought that video games were the future and that movies and television were going to die out.
The latter didn’t happen. My prediction was wrong, but it did function as the first reason for me to want to make games. That’s why whenever I make a game, I hope to be able to do something new that people haven’t seen before, just like how Gradius did the same for me.
Kim: Many of you have probably never heard of it, but Psychic World and Valis: The Fantasm Soldier [A3] are some of the first games that impressed me. Both games were created in the MSX era and feature female protagonists. It was a new discovery for me that you could fight as attractive females in a game, and I wanted to make something similar myself. NieR: Automata was an important inspiration for Stellar Blade, but a game by Capcom called P.N.03 played a big role as well. The female protagonist in that game inspired EVE’s action style. I have been inspired by so many different works of art. I hope that Stellar Blade can inspire someone one day as well.
https://www.ign.com/articles/stellar-blade-x-nier-automata-taro-yoko-hyung-tae-kim
