If Horizon Had A $1 Monthly Fee

Are you serious? Yeah, go sue the moderators of a pirated game. I'm sure the judge won't laugh you out of the court.

Are you stupid?

No you just suck at math. Let's say you did Sky twice a week (which was the average for most linkshells), for a decade. Let's say you never missed a run for those entire 10 years. That's 260 runs of sky.

Sheol Gaol released in January 2021. This is when most people actually started to treat seg farming with any amount of seriousness. If you did a seg run every other day (not even daily), that's already over 300 runs.


Because that's how FOMO works. Daily events are designed to make you feel this way psychologically. That's literally why every gacha/MMO has them, it psychologically manipulates you into FOMO, which gives a feeling of something being mandatory. It's a player retention trick.
If you are confused by this then idk what to tell you.

That is on the client side, the LSB has absolutely none of that inside it.

Do not confuse the retail client with the not-retail emulated server. The retail client is 100% the property of SE, the not-retail server is 100% not the property of SE.

:Edit:

For those confused about the whole matter, this is the LSB. It's the base server code for emulating a FFXI retail server.

https://github.com/LandSandBoat/server

While this is true, it's not that hard to establish that Horizon is distributing the retail client. They had the foresight to do it via torrent for ambiguity, but doubt it'd hold up in a serious suit.

I also don't really expect SE would ever care to sue them though, they aren't big enough to matter.

I never, not once, said Horizon was legal, only that the LSB is legal.

Through many posts I've tried to explain the legalese behind this and people read two lines and ignore the rest.

Fair enough, I didn't backread the whole thread. My apologies.

It's all good, I've been trying to explain how the legalities of emulation work to a bunch of people who have little if any knowledge of the US law pertaining to it. It's likely a pointless endeavor, especially to the ones claiming the LSB is "not an emulator", but isn't this whole game a pointless endeavor.

So yes, stupid. I have no idea what argument you are trying to make but I'm sure it's not worth any more of my time or brain cells.

OK, I'll bite. Where's the variety?
Zipacna: WS him to death, cure if you take damage
Steam Cleaner: Hold a Detector, WS dolls to death until he spawns, then WS SC to death.
Brigandish Blade: Walk around looking for a ???, click it, then WS him to death. Does stealing a dagger for the killshot count as a mechanic?
Despot: Pull trash, WS them to death until he spawns. Then WS him to death
Olla: Kill trash for pop item, then WS him to death
MG: Wait for her to spawn. WS her to death, maybe someone needs to hold/kill the adds? So that's kinda like a mechanic.
Faust: Wait for him to spawn, then WS him to death. Maybe you want a tank? IDK Probably not necessary
Ulli: Farm a pop item, then WS him to death
Seiryu: Bring a tank, SATA WS him to death. Maybe bind or Invincible during HF?
Suzaku: Bring a tank, SATA WS him to death. Silence, CS stun, kite, or just resist his CS
Byakko: Bring a tank, SATA WS him to death
Genbu: Make a SC, MB with Thunder. Or just bring a tank and SATA WS him to death
Kirin: Zerg him with an alliance in 60 seconds? Or maybe you have to kite him, kill the adds, and hit him with ranged ***like the old days. See how much they nerfed everything though, probably just zerg.

Limbus: Seg farms, but without agons, chests, coffers, or teleporters
Ultima: Bring a tank, SATA WS him to death, stun a few TP moves at predictable times.
Omega: Bring 2 tanks, SATA WS him to death, someone kill the pods when they spawn. Use magic damage when he's in magic form.

Dynamis: Pull statues, nuke the statues, then WS the trash to death.

HNMs (all): Stand around doing nothing. When the mob spawns, SATA WS it to death, you can SC+MB if you want (but it's not necessary)!. Maybe kite KB while SATA WSing him?

What a wide variety of content! You can pick which NM you want to stand around and wait to WS to death. The depth of strategy and the variety of the fights is so intense. You have all these difficult mechanics to balance and you have to come up with a unique strategy to defeat each enemy. It's really cutting-edge stuff.

If this was a Nintendo game, these m****ers would be fined, jailed or both.

Fine, I'll bite. I'm not as obtuse as you probably think that I am, but so far you've not provided any evidence to reinforce what you are claiming other than "I am involved in the emulation community". If this is really settled law then there will be cases and case law you can reference, but so far there hasn't been any, just indications of what you think is legal or illegal. You've dismissed everything else as "noise" without addressing it. The Cyrix case you referenced I found no references to ISAs or emulation, rather the precedent regarding patent exhaustion. I'd gladly read more if you can point in that direction but so far I've not been able to find anything, but I find it a bit sus still because Intel, as of 4 years ago, was still threatening over ARM processors emulating portions of the x86 ISA they held patents for.

What I'm trying to reconcile and you've so far not clarified is how there have been long standing discussions and debates now for decades about what constitutes a derived work in the software world. I referenced one example earlier with LKMs and so far there seems to be no cases actually clarifying how the courts view these things, only speculation and promises from contributors on how they will or won't enforce the license. If this far more recognized debate has yet to be settled regarding the FOSS community, how has the much smaller discussion here been settled when the LSB software is potentially considered a derived work from SEs proprietary software. The example of emacs/vim/nano/etc doesn't really compare here either, because these are all independent works that may share some libraries, but otherwise are separate from one another and all use permissive FOSS licensing. LSB is arguably derived from SEs existing work since it implements the same protocols they created and were REd to create LSB, done specifically for LSB without which it wouldn't work. I also understand this "happens all the time", but so do GPL violations and theoretical violations that have yet to be clarified, so again, that doesn't really mean it's legal, it just means it has yet to be defined.

What I'm still unclear on is why there isn't an argument that LSB is derived from the proprietary protocols/data structures created by SE and legally protected. The LSB code itself may be an independent work, but it still implements protocols and data structures defined by SE. This is no different than the discussion I mentioned earlier about LKMs and data structures in the header files, something that has yet to be settled. So where is the line between what is/isn't a derived work and why doesn't LSB cross it despite using resources/structures/protocols defined by SE that aren't licensed to them?

I'm not saying you are wrong necessarily, I'm just not clear on why you are acting like it's settled law when other parts of this are still being debated. That's all putting aside the reverse engineering aspect, which there have been legal scuffles about as well. I'm actually interested in understanding if there is a precedent here or it has been before a court, but so far I've seen no indication that's the case.

Yes the snozberries taste like snozzberries.

That entire post was just... gibberish and grasping at straws.

The LSB is not even in the same language as SE's FFXI server code, therefor it can't possible be derivative work. Derivative work (with respect to software code) is where you take one set of code, then modify it into a different set of code. The legal arguments are always centered on "how much different is necessary". In this case the LSB doesn't share a single line of code as SE's retail code, and is therefor 100% different and an original work. Emulators are never derivative works of the things they emulate, otherwise you wouldn't of needed an emulator in the first place.

Now I'm not going to convince you of anything, this is the internet and you've already made up your mind.

LOL, way to oversimplify, sky had no limits for entry. Why limit it to twice a week? You are just grasping at straws at this point.



So an event with no limits for entry has no FOMO, where every single minute you aren't in that zone is a loss in potential revenue or gear. You are over exaggerating Odyssey. First, you don't need to farm segments everyday, you get enough for 1 run for multiple boss runs, its not like 1 run = 1 boss run. Second, you don't even need max gear for a large portion of the content in the game. 75 era had way more things to be "FOMO" over, especially as new content came out. It had huge lists to wait for gear, huge waits for entering combat. If you are suggesting current retail disrespects your time more than a 75 era, thats laughable.

abyssea released in 2010. sky launched in 2004.

at best you had 6 years of doing sky, this is if you were horrible at the game and wiped every time and didn't get your drops. most linkshells were done with sky in 2006-2007 other than random kirin runs one sunday every 4 months

nothing he is trying to argue is in good faith, it never is when it comes to private servers. just ignore draylo when it comes to them.

You are the one telling people to ignore others who opinion you disagree with. If you are so sensitive block everyone who disagrees with you and stop engaging.

Everything they are arguing is in good faith? People who are clearly burnt out on retail and are just hating on it at this point? I don't see much of a difference on either side, its obvious I dislike private servers but I know this game like the back of my hand and what I'm saying isn't in bad faith. That guy was the one that brought up sky to compare to segment farming.. They are just completely ignoring everything else to focus on one aspect to try and prove their point.

I said sky/sea, but we can throw in a lot of other events around that time that had a similar formula. Also we did sky/sea overall well into the first Abyssea exp, it wasn't really until the second one that started to outclass most of that gear. None of those events were optional really if you were apart of any successful linkshell. There was always a requirement to come to events for the vast majority of them for points or spots on waiting lists. Being forced to do that, is a factor in it being stale. I really don't get the rest of his post though, nobody is forcing anyone to do segment farms and you have options to do it solo or any job composition you desire over time. There is no rush when theres no linkshell points or wait lists...

I played FFXI (Retail) for almost 10 years, starting as a new player during Aby.

I never had the 'nostalgia' of playing during 'back in the day' (RoZ, CoP, ToAU, WoTG).

I quit FFXI last year for a bit after despising Sortie. I tried coming back for a while, only to find many close friends had quit the game.

From this, I decided to give Horizons a go. I thoroughly enjoyed my experience there. The slower combat, leveling experience, people doing quests and missions together at-level. It was an entirely fresh FFXI game that I had never experienced prior.

I was paying for a Retail sub while playing on Horizons for most of my experience, albeit I did eventually cancel my retail sub.

While I no longer play it, I did enjoy my time on Horizons. FFXI retail players will denounce it as it 'kills retail and steals players'. I agree fully with this. If FFXI gave us a 'classic' server, I would much rather pay for it there and support SE. But alas, no.

As long as there is a demand for a 'classic' FFXI, someone will meet it. Even if on a private, free to play, server. Look at Old School Runescape and Wow Classic (all 50 versions of it).

----
Also this is a small detail, but I do like the attempts by the Horizon staff to add music to zones without. I don't enjoy all of it, but I love the idea.

surprised this hasn't devolved into emulation vs simulation yet, that is always a fun discussion.

I'm not ignoring anything. You know as well as I do that Odyssey and Sortie are the only regularly experienced content for most of the playerbase on retail.


The majority of Horizon players are people who haven't played XI in many years. You can't get the same experience on retail because non-iLVL content is 99% dead on retail. The only way to experience the 75-era content on retail is playing solo, which isn't the same. Both the approach to the content itself and getting to the point to experience the content are different.


It's nice that running 2 Sortie routes and farming segments with the same strategy and party configuration never gets old for you. If you weren't such a shut-minded curmudgeon, you might be able to fathom why some people might prefer more variety.

Also, you really think "you might join a party where a key member leaves!" is some sort of detracting factor? Like disruptive things don't happen in retail just as often?


While your opinion is your opinion, I'd love to hear your "nuanced differences" lmao

Also, you keep whining about people "shitting on retail", yet most people who are doing so are just pointing out the blatant use of timewasting grinds that SE has designed to draw out subscription fees. Like you were complaining earlier about a screenshot where a guy pointed out the grind from 1 to 99 to ML earlier lol

"Nobody is forcing you to do the relevant content!" lmao holy ***

I mean...this is patently false. I can't think of a single person I know who does only these two events. The only people who are only doing these events are people with infinite gil, every REMA they could ever want, all their jobs completely geared out, all job cards, relic unlocks, has every Su5 weapon they want, and every tiny niche piece of gear for every job.

This makes up a TINY percentage of the population. There are still vast quantities of people on retail who are doing all the things I listed above and more. Forgot to list monthly campaigns, when those are on I routinely do whatever the event is (NNI, Voidwatch, Delve [more than usual], SKCNM, WoE)

There is an absolute glut of content to do in retail and honestly most of the time there's way too much to do, not a lack of things to do. Could you argue that eventually people will get through everything, if they go really hardcore on it for years? Sure. But that is at least 10x as true for private servers, so I have no idea what the argument even is here. The variety of content on PS vs retail is not even remotely comparable.

The people in charge of retail are the ones killing retail. The amount of people who play private servers instead of retail is probably extremely low because private servers aren't really playing the same game.

ftfy

No, that isn't true actually. Most of the playerbase still does Ambuscade, Escha(aeonics or certain items), missions/quests, HtB, Dynamis D, various things for REMA etc. The list goes on and on. All of those have varying levels of relevancy, so its not just Odyssey or Sortie and thats it.


There isn't anything special about 75 era content, but there is wanted battles or HtB or even Escha can replicate a lot of the fights. Most of the stuff from the old days was revisted already, if people cared that much they could easily accomplish doing it. The truth is they don't, they aren't looking for that exact content experience. Most are just playing because its free and that happens to be some of the only things to do.


There is more variety, you are the shut minded one. You have completed all that and got burnt out and bored, a jaded player. You can't fathom that other people have other things they might want to do on retail that doesn't involve those two events. I keep repeating the same thing with you, you can easily apply your logic to a private server. Once you reach max level and finish Sky and various NMs you wanted gear from, theres nothing else to do according to your logic.


Not as often, nowhere near it. I literally saw a stream of this guy sitting 25m waiting for them to find a mage a couple months ago. That must be part of the experience for you, how fun.


So, I've been "on top of the pyramid" in retail for every era now, I've done it all and experienced it all and have been successful. If they said they were remaking this game and erasing all progress I wouldn't care at all. I don't have some need to be top dog with all my gear and capped Gil... I couldn't care less, that is more those people you are playing with on that server. They couldn't leave dragon aery behind, the idea their precious gear and items from 75 era were outclassed. You could literally write a book on it lol.

I have enjoyed and loved this game for a very long time, so it has nothing to do with being at the top like you say. There is a HUGE list of things I could write here for those differences. I already gave you some, why would I want to go back to being level 75 with much less to do on each job, no cool spells or abilities or anything interesting. The biggest thing to look forward to being a +1 in STR on an upgrade... give me a break.


This game has ALWAYS had timewasting grinds, always. Literally every single era! Yeah I pointed that out because hes hypocritical like the rest of them. They all say "RETAIL 2 EZ" "trust babies getting to cap so fast!" they think we are still in Abyssea doing alliance exp parties. They don't even realize the exp grind for 1~99 + JP + ML is more time investment than 1-75 on that server, as in its harder...

Nobody is forcing you to do it daily. Tell me, what is the difference between thinking you are forced to do something daily because of a daily KI or having an event completely open to spam 24/7 and you log out to go to bed. If you skip doing it in either case you are penalized. One is just laid out infront of you and the other is not.

Also to your earlier comment, you don't use the same party compositions every time. I don't personally, and I know a lot of people going different jobs to stuff for fun. You don't need to grind segments everyday, its not a requirement. Not to mention you get Gil doing it anyways, aside from that you get enough points per run to not have to do it 1/1 for bosses.

In my opinion they take away from retail. The proof is people like you who are literally everywhere on youtube, reddit and now here. You become jaded and burnt out on the real game and become this anti-XI hater. It is sad that all these people who loved this game get burnt out or annoyed at certain decisions from SE and become its enemy. You can enjoy your fake game, but the problem is when they go and try to actively recruit people or ***on this game without backing it up. The fact you think that server has more content than retail just speaks for itself on how biased you are.

Nothing takes away from retail except for the people running retail. Your ire is misdirected.


You keep spouting this, but nobody is being a hater by pointing out that retail is a disproportionate grindfest almost exclusively geared towards lowman groups and multiboxing.


The people "recruiting"(lmao individual youtube comments are recruiting?) literally just post facts about retail. What does it say about retail when facts about it can be used as a reason to get people to play something else?


Private servers have a greater variety of relevant content.

lol man you really think "I saw a stream once where they had a hard time finding a mage!" is a detracting point