Do You Prefer The Current Stat Values?

There were a lot of people that quit during this time because it invalidated their hard-earned gear. We know how hard it was to gain even a slight increase in stats in the past. In my mind that was abyssea, then a pause, then adoulin delve was a sharp increase in equip level. I liked it (I liked delve as content), a lot of people didn't. Yes its true that SE needed to un-stagnate ffxi just like they need to now.


For me, in ffxi the descriptions aren't in fine print and are more clear to understand than in most other equivalent games. Nobody wants to go back to just 6 stats. We all want PDT yeah?


Yeah the "stat vomit" is pretty minimal also compared to other games, and more understandable, hell we have simulators and a forum that can even do the work for us. I'm in the group that likes to compare stats and playing since 2004/5 it seems easy. I make tons of gear choices based on my historical understanding of how ffxi situations can play out. Or, we can understand we cap haste first, then go full dd or hybrid or subtle blow or shield block etc... whatever we want.

Gear choices and their nuances let us have fun with luas and macros for each situation, and that's a core strength of ffxi retaining their customers, even though they only did half the work.

People crying about stat vomit clearly havent played Strangers of Paradise. It might be a different type of stat vomit, but theres like 200 different type of equipment attributes that you can get, if not more.

A lot of this is personal preference and perspective as well. Everyone has different tolerance along both ends of the "complexity" spectrum. Complexity in excess of a person's tolerance is going to seem needlessly confusing. Complexity in lack of a person's tolerance is going to seem simple and mundane.

Personally, I prefer my games to have complexity in mechanics layered atop one another. I don't like having a lot of different stats, but I like being able to approach a situation from various angles and optimize my play-style.

I can handle modern Final Fantasy XI, in part because I was able to digest it when it had fewer stats, so adding a bunch of new ones was less overwhelming. But I still find it fairly mind-boggling to try and theorycraft when each piece of gear has 20-30 different numbers that don't even visually align with one another.

I was only considering the OP's question from a stance of looking at a statblock and understanding it within 2 seconds. Game balance is like a completely different discussion.

There's one dedicated spell nuker, another that can do it but not as well, and a buffer than can also nuke.

There are 18 non-spell DD jobs - granted not all of them dedicated DD jobs.

Of course they buff the DD jobs.

If threnodies were changed to also reduce elemental defense rather than just accuracy that alone would do a lot and make brd a good buffer for nukers. But brd hardly needs any more buffs.

If they're smart AND they keep making content(big IF), things are going to start having DT standard, but not SDB unless the fight requires it. You can only hit 99999 so hard. Even 99999 x2 with a SC. The game could use a number crunch.

BLM can hit for way more than capped damage. Helix can only tick for 10k but they can certainly land the initial damage higher. If it's harder to hit the damage ceiling, then the jobs that can already hit it and still do it become more viable. The GEO still gets a spot for bubbles and can nuke when appropriate. RDM,NIN,BLU can contribute to opening SCs or adding debuffs if m.eva gets nuts but probably shouldn't nuke on the same element, but should definitely nuke on the other elements present if viable. DRK should tell you about their dead parents or find a new child ward, but not nuke because then Batman is OP. IDK enough about the current state of pet nuking to make jokes.

Also since damage will be less, dps threat generation will be less. Enmity generation for tanks will be enhanced relatively. Maybe COR and RNG shooting setups won't immediately pull hate without trying.

I'm assuming you're referring to Blm, Rdm, and Geo here. You know that scholar exists right? Scholar's nuking prowess is pretty comparable to blm.



They already said they aren't making content anymore. Look at this months patch notes. That's basically what we can expect for the rest of eternity.

Everyone talks about 99,999 as though it happens every time they WS. How often are you MFers hitting 99,999?

Don't get me wrong, I've hit 99,999 and I've hit it on a bunch of different jobs, with nukes, WS, BPs, etc. but like...it's not like I spam 99,999 on every single WS under every single buff condition on every single enemy I fight. Even on DD jobs it's quite uncommon and typically only happens with multiple 1hrs going at the same time.

All you need to do is make a fight/event last more than 3 minutes and you've already pretty much guaranteed that people won't be spamming 99k. Or give the mob defense/DT. How many people spam 99k on V25 Kalunga or Arebati, for example?

I really think the 99k cap is less of a problem than people like to say. 99k is typically reserved for 1hr situations, and even then it's normally on trash mobs and/or with massive support.

If you're doing 99k WS every 3 seconds, whatever you're fighting is going to die extremely fast, no matter what it is. Also you're probably going to die because no tank on the planet can hold hate off that (possible exception of hybrid WS, but you'd better pray to God you don't SC)

Not nearly as often as some of the people here would imply. Even fully buffed you're only going to be topping out your savage blades and rudra's and similar tp scaling weaponskills in the 55-75k range most of the time. It takes additional job abilities to push the gauntlet further. Sure dancer can 99k almost anything (even most lesser boss type NM's) with climactic flourish, and you can stack climactic and building flourish together to make it even more likely. You can use mighty strikes, or stack hover shot to maximum, or fight some qubtrubs because damage mulipliers make numbers big and stupid, or main thief and stack sneak attack or trick attack. But outside those buff windows you aren't throwing out 99k's on a whim.

Magic specifically, seemed pretty clear

I mean...


Even still though. Do you think BLM are hitting 99k MB every time? Are they doing this 3 bursts in a row?

There's definitely opportunity to improve MB damage (with a song, a JA, or buffs from elsewhere).

The list of fights where a BLM can consistently hit 99k MB is...not very big. Especially not so when they're doing multiple bursts in a row. Maybe they hit a single 99k, but not 2 or 3. And when they are hitting 99k, it's also generally reliant on specific buffs like Bolster, Subtle Sorcery, COR shots, etc.

It's really nowhere near as common as people imply, in my experience. Very similar to my WS comments above. Are you hitting 99k bursts on V25 Ongo? On a routine basis? Are you hitting 99k MBs on every Sortie basement boss? Every burst? Nobody is doing these things. 99k bursts on Kei? What are you guys fighting that you're constantly bursting 99k repeatedly?

I would argue that to ignore some sortie boss mechanics is a DPS check as well.

I do wonder why they made supports capable damage dealers, but never gave dds some capability of filling any support gaps. It wouldn't be comparable to the authentic ones, just enough to give some of the very lacking ones some ability to close the gap between parties with and without certain jobs.

Dude, people are shouting for ML35+ for PUG Sheol C farming, no ones gonna use inferior support jobs.

Sorry to digress, but I found this really funny.



Almost looks like you up-voted your own post XD

Have you actually tried to make a group of newer players work?

*inhales in preparation to become a wind bag*

I don't mind the stat vomit these days, now that I'm used to it. Being a returning player who's struggled to stay returned a few times until the last couple of years, it was a bit overwhelming for my brain, because I'd left the game just at the advent of item level, right as a few things were trickling out and wowing everybody, namely those Hand to Hand from the Wildskeeper Reive.

There's still key stats that are more important than the attributes, and of the attributes your job or gearset dictates which ones you care about the most.

Having recently played a character starting from scratch in a very slow and methodical manner for my LP, it was the same way at 75. It was just more obvious because there was less on each piece.

A fun fact is the 75 era only lasted for 6.5 years. The item level era has now been in effect for about 10.

They're relatively the same. Each claim levied about stronger i119 pieces applies to level 75 pieces respective of the era.

For instance, everybody knows about say, the weapons that dropped from Sky Pop NMs like Ushikirimaru, Indra Katars, Shiranui etc. These weapons had fairly high base damage when Sky first came out and even after, but a lot of them were lower damage wise than gear introduced later during the 75 cap (or even negated by sky god weapon drops). A lot of the gear was tied up in the Abjuration sets which had to have their cursed pieces crafted, and many of them were so good that they even lasted in the eras of level cap raises 80-99 (particularly after the introduction of Synergy augments). And those had new sets introduced in the waning years of the 75 cap with the unique Einherjar abjurations as well.

But the one thing the 75 to 99 era had that Item level era doesn't have, is that a lot of accessories and other specific pieces from lower levels actually had use still at 75 in specific gearsets. Like, the JSE Subligar bodies, Swift Belt, Soboro, Rutter Sabatons, Amemet mantle, Hornetneedle, Ifrit's Blade, Cassie Earring, Speed Belt, Strider's Shoes, Kraken Club, Assault Jerkin, Moldavite Earring, Fuma Sune-ate, Ochiudo's Kote etc.

Like in item level era, unless a gear piece specifically enhances a specific job ability on activation, and then you can swap it out, it doesn't really carry a lot of weight if it's not i119 cause of level correction.

But the 75 era definitely had tiers to it. There was your 75 player who was wearing full AH bought gearsets, who likely was still pretty good, but he wasn't Byakko's Haidate + Kirin's Osode levels of good. Or like, Hauberk +1 WAR vs. an Adaman Hauberk WAR. Or a RDM with Duelist's Chapeau and Dalmatica vs. a RDM with Vermy. Or a full Usukane Ninja vs. a Scorpion Harness +1 Ninja with AF. Or a Nyzul armor person vs. an Assault Points armored person.

Like nowadays right, it's like...

i119 Bayld vs. Ambu +2 vs. Reforged AF/Relish/Empy +3.

Clear cut tiers, but all still i119. With some of that Su1~Su5 crafted gear getting into the mix and shaking things up ever so slightly.

I'd say that stat vomit era feels a bit worse because instead of spending your time rooted in different locales trying for your 1% drop, you're funneled into the same places over and over in the ceaseless grind, so the real issue is you don't get much of a change of scenery. It all feels the same, I guess. Even though it's not.

This is much more common than the meta would have you believe.

There are circles for relevant fights (Bumba, Caturae), defense downs from BST, DNC, BLU, Killer Instinct for BST (depending on mob family), BLU gets diffusion and has some good buffs.

I guess NIN, THF, RNG have a tough time providing unique buffs or debuffs (to the rest of the party) that make them worthwhile.

Still don't see BST DNC BLU taking support role slots, not because they can't provide something to the party, but because there are better options. Why would someone bring a clearly inferior job when they could have the clear superior one? Especially for PUG content, you're just going to get the cookie cutter, especially when you have no idea if that person has a clue what they're doing.

The unfortunate reality is that in online games, metas develop and most people gravitate towards whatever the best option is, so you're left with basically everyone doing the same setups or all jobs being so overbalanced as to become generic and swappable with each other. I feel it's a real design challenge to make jobs feel unique enough from each other while still being balanced enough to be able to swap them in/out.

The thing about this, is that a lot of people don't play jobs outside of what they themselves like, so their knowledge about other jobs is limited.

And like, even if they read about or get told about something another job has, unless they play with one of those jobs all the time in the scenarios that call for it, those atypical buffs/debuffs aren't what's signature to the job.

Like how BST now has a lot of skillchain potential with Ready moves, but not a lot of folks know this/can play off of it easily since it's not a signature aspect of the job.

And I mean, like, doesn't uhm Ninja have a TP reduction debuff it can apply to mobs and atk down? Ranger can do defense down with Acid Bolts/their ilvl equivalent. Thief can steal 2hrs with Larceny (Oh invincible is in the way of us zerging this. THF steals Invincible. yeehaw)

It surely wouldn't have killed them to toss a 30% haste effect here and there if they were improving support damage to such an extent
I pick haste because it would have the lowest impact on optimal groups while feeling pretty good to have. In fact Cornelia just made casual groups so much easier to build when she was available.

Sure, theoretically but:
BST ready TP moves opening SCs are highly irrelevant as WS are generally available every couple seconds from a DD, and most jobs can create 90% of the SCs in the game, with multiple jobs/weapons it quickly closes to 100% of the SCs, so I don't think having the ability to open a SC matters much in group play.
NIN will have a very difficult time landing those debuffs on anything that matters, and the atk down is lower than other options
THF thing only applies once per fight and only if the mob uses a 1hr, and even then is still pretty insignificant in most cases (Bumba possibly the only exception? Maybe Moogle ambu?)
RNG acid bolt defense down is worse than other options, and also very inconsistent.

You're right about the awareness, but as I said that's a meta issue, not a game design issue. The fact that these jobs have options and nobody's aware of them is a problem with the players.

Also consider though: if the players just want to play the meta all the time, go for it. There's not a problem with only focusing on the best jobs for the content. If you want to mix it up with some weird niche jobs or JA/spells people never bother using, also go for it! Nothing's stopping you, just make some friends, or convince some randos.

I don't think the question is really lack of familiarity with some of those unique buffs/debuffs you mention. Its that when content gets reduced to 6, people are going to stick with proven methods and personnel vs trying out new concepts for a lot of logistics reasons. There definitely are times unique concepts work great- but more often than not I'm staring at such choices from the mindset of "what does X-Job bring?" but sadly more from "what do I have to give up in the setup to get what X-job adds?"

Its not often enough an equal exchange to make such moves viable. I'd have loved for NIN elemental nukes to have a place in an Ongo, or more times DNC can function as the main healer...just too often the theorized substitutes just don't bring as much as the expected norms when limited in party size the way we are now.

It's not the party size. it's the time and punishment for innovating (failures).

Time is more valuable than fun.

If you could just "do stuff" without penalizing other stuff. It wouldn't be so prolific. Every minute you *** around with a dancer or a puppetmaster is a minute you can't spend mashing savage blade somewhere else. It's always about that zero sum.

BLU, DNC, SMN, RDM, BRD, GEO, SCH already give haste effects. DRK, DRG, NIN, THF, BLU, DNC, MNK all have ways of reducing delay outside of capping magical haste. RNG and COR can shoot and ignore attack delay entirely. It's not as though all content must revolve around capping magic haste, or at least it doesn't have to.

Think outside the box and you'll quickly find there are options all over the place.

No, I was referring to blm, sch and geo. Rdm nukes don't count and I have an ML50 rdm.

Truth


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Back to the rants. You can't blame meta or players on BRD, COR, GEO.

If there is good, better, and best options and STATISTICALLY and OBJECTIVELY BRD, COR, and GEO always land in the best options for things they are designed for then that's not on players.

"Savage Blade is OP, everyone just Naeglings for 99999 damage all the time"
"Nuke wall must stay because mages are OP and overused without the nuke wall"
"Well of course Prime horn is a melee boosting song, there are 18 DD jobs and no one plays mage jobs"

The above statements, paraphrased, all come from the same person. Make it make sense pls.

Question for the class: if you had it your way, what would a party composition look like for a 6-man event?

Seems like a lot of people are opposed to WS spam and don't like having 3 supports in every party, lots of people seem to like the idea of SC+MB...what does that look like?

I tried to look at it from a player engagement standpoint but it seems like you always have at least one or two players doing basically nothing

Tank: tanking
Healer: healing
Support: casts buffs then AFK?
DD: makes skillchains
Second DD?: Necessary? If one DD can self-SC, and we're magic-bursting, what's the second DD gonna do? Are all SCs going to be 3k WS -> 3k WS?
Mage: Magic bursts

Maybe 2 supports standing around, telling each other ghost stories? Second support could be GEO, who could also be magic bursting I guess. Is it 2 supports + BLM, all magic bursting?

I think the pace of play people are rose-tinted glass-ing about is just way too slow to engage 6 players in the current state of affairs. You'll have DDs sitting on 3k TP while they wait for magic bursts to finish and supports standing around because they can't interrupt the skillchain/magic burst window, so they have nothing to do.

Huh?

If I had it my way we would have 18-man events still. The current 6 man is ***.