Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

I actually had thought that axe might have a lower PDL since it also affects the pet and thats their idea of 'balance' and I never retested with katana to find out

could be a possibility, or just 1H have lower too. either way the stage 4s look solidly 4-10%

Stage 4 Axe is 10% at 3000. Una tested that and I posted it here. I didn't include numbers, because it's a 1st grade elementary school level of mathematics.. but if you insist..

Depends on the weapon though outside of specific AMs id say relics are comfortably beaten, but that's nothing new as that more or less already applied to relic vs mythic/emp/aeonics

Disclaimer: I will include some non REMA WS below, because REMA WS are not always the strongest.

Dagger Stronger than Rudra, but nothing impressive. What's very good though is 3 step light and very strong Fragmentation option.
Sword R15 Expiacion is stronger. Savage with Naegling is stronger. It's mostly a better Distortion option for RDM and PLD.
Hand-to-hand It's hard to tell. Malu Kala being 1st hit heavy WS is more consistent and you can use more Nyame for it (which is safer and has more skillchain damage). Vsmite damage is much more random, but can easily spike above Malu Kala's ceiling. It also really requires stacked Impetus to be good. Tornado and Dragon kick with Footwork and Godhands up are both stronger than Malu.
Great Sword WS itself is stronger than Torcleaver, at least at higher TP.
Axe Decimation with Ambu axe would probably win at 1000TP, but Decimation set requires way more attack to perform at highest level, because it has massive PDL from Gleti's. Cloudsplitter and Primal Rend being magic WS are completely separate topic, because with enough buffs/debuffs you can push them to 99k on target at lease neutral to magic, but without mostly GEO they will be much weaker
Great Axe It's stronger at the same effective TP thresholds, but without Warcry it could probably lose at 1000TP to 1000TP Upheaval with Chango, simply because of TP bonus.
Scythe Significantly stronger at higher TP. Not entirely sure about lower thresholds, because nature of Sortie create scenario where I'm mostly see and use this WS with Warcry from WAR. Also I dont know fTP for 2000TP, so can't guess fTP for around 1400 effective TP to calculate this against other options. My guess though would be that both R15 Quietus, R15 Catastophe and 1000TP Cross with Anguta are probably competitive at 1000TP.
PolearmSignificantly stronger at higher TP. Not entirely sure about lower thresholds.
Katana All the Katana REMA WSs are pretty bad for damage. Zesho is stronger than :Ten. Hybrid WSs can easily be better on right target (even without magic buffs/debuffs).
Great Katana Seems to be like 15% stronger than R15 Fudo at 3000TP
Club No data
Staff Definitely strongest physical staff WS, but not sure if that's important for jobs it can be used on.
Bow Seems to be way stronger than any other Archery WS
Gun Seems to be slightly better than Last Stand because of better WSC and having all fTP on one hit, so making WSD working for whole WS (while it's only 50% for Last Stand). That being said 1000TP Terminus is rather weak and with only Moonshade TP bonus it could end up losing to both 1000TP R15 Last Stand and R15 Coronach. Once again Wildfire and Leaden are completely different category.

EDIT: Im tired after 10h of work and just noticed you were asking about weapons, not weapon skills. So again:

Dagger Assuming TP bonus offhand, it's bis piercing option for RDM and not by much but bis option for DNC. THF can probably utilize Twashtar AM3 to close the gap from Rudra being slightly weaker, or maybe even push ahead. In specific scenario (low attack) Vajra can probably be competitive or slightly better and without TP Bonus Mandau isn't bad either. All of them complement each other though, providing different skillchain properties.
Sword Tizona is by far better for BLU. Almace is kinda meh, mostly because on BLU you need tons of attack to fully utilize it's potential with Gleti's and RDM not having good sets for it at all. Excalibur is not bad at low TP and for Fusion, so again more like conditional option. Naegling is ofc also better for raw damage. Still Caliburnus is both very good Distortion option for RDM and in general probably bis 3step damage option. Murgleis has different use case and there is also Crocea Morse which is another bis conditional weapon. So, like daggers, swords are even more about complementary options.
Hand-to-hand Veret is better with Impetus, Godhands with Footwork. It could be maybe strong for PUP, idk.
Great Sword WS is better, but Caladbolg with AM3 will usually close the gap with melee hits. Obviously bis Great Sword for WAR and distortion option for WAR and RUN.
Axe From the master physical pov damage it's bis
Great Axe It's bis for raw damage with Warcry (both zerg and self skillchain). I think Ukon can still be competitive without Warcry and most likely with Blood Rage. Chango is potentially better for self skillchain without Warcry. Also Laphria would 3step darkness and Ukon and Chango would focus on 2 or 3 step light, so again you would want to have all of them.
Scythe If I would be forced to pick one PREMAD for DRK, it would be Foenaria for sure. It's as good for DRK as Tizona for BLU. That being said, you would still want other weapons for specific scenario. Apocalypse/Anguta for Gravitation, Double Darkness or Umbra. Redemption for white damage heavy fights. Liberator for Absorbs. Father Time for SB, Drain.
Polearm I would say it is bis polearm for sure.
Katana Probably bis for physical katana damage. I would say Heishi can still easily win if hybrids are not resisted though. Prime will probably pull ahead for self SC.
Great Katana AM3 on Masamune isnt as significant for SAM as AM3 on Calad for DRK or AM3 on Ukon for WAR, but it still adds damage and Fudo isnt that far behind Mumei. Still Kusanagi should win for raw damage. Solo skillchain would obviously depends of what element you want. Masa for Light and Kusanagi for Darkness. Doji is still bis for Hybrids.
Club No data
Staff Bis nuke option assuming AM3 is up. Also most likely bis for magic BPs with AM up and by far bis for Flaming Crush with AM up. Nirvana probably still better for physical BPs with AM3 up.
Bow By far the strongest bow, but Gandiva would still have an use case for white damage setup and Yoichi for hateless setup (I know Annihilator exists, but I'm compering bows)
Gun I would want to say it's bis gun for raw physical damage, but tbh I'm not sure if Armageddon wouldn't beat it. Earp is probably bis for solo skillchain though. Obviously Arma and Death Penalty can easily be way stronger in magic setup. Annihilator would still be kind for hateless setup too.

Should I add both fotia neck and belt for 2k test?

It dones't matter. Byrth was asking only to be sure how to calculate it. Using two fotia or one fotia doesn't make the test any easier, harder or anything else.

thanks for. I don't know if its confirmation bias but it seems like the only two clear cut definitive upgrades are shield and scythe. key words: clear + upgrades.
everything seems like completionist side-grades/situational. Which isn't bad. Not saying that at all. Just looking at the time commitment (as well as the discipline to do farm everyday) for myself, I just don't see enough reward for the effort and sacrifice with everything else I have going on irl and other games.

Shield is mostly a sidegrade too. Only time it's an actual upgrade over anything else is against hybrids which enemies don't use very often, or for casting protect. Existing shields are individually equal or better than duban for what they're for

Guess if you're really into status resist+?

changed gear slightly from previous test to get exact 2000 tp
197 str
183 vit
no ws dmg gear no pdl added 1 fotia item and AM is likely 7% pdl (did a test with sakpata legs on (7%pdl) after AM fell off and got same ranged dmg as 2000 am 2)

2k no fotia
17172
17181
17291
17322
17506
17540
17575
17579
17652
17674
17722
17744
17749
17774
17783
17795
17848
17852
17855
17861
17873
17885
17886
17928
17977
17986
17987
17995

2k fotia neck
17473
17497
17506
17531
17541
17573
17592
17632
17646
17646
17662
17663
17757
17770
17780
17791
17819
17857
17876
17877
17897
17941
17970
18000
18021
18035
18043
18051
18063
18076
18173
18188
18190
18244
18251
18290
2654
Edit: Added more 2k fotia got a new high value.

Wut? It's far-and-away the best shield in the game for blocking physical damage (especially while reprisal is down), while also having the highest DEF in the game, MDT II, and status ailment resist. If I had a stage 5 prime shield, I would never wear anything else except for 1.) casting Phalanx, 2.) +Enmity on Srivatsa (if I don't care about my TP), and 3.) Aegis if every mob I was tanking did exclusively magic damage

that gives about 6.3~6.4, closer to 6.4, though, if we go by 60/60 on str and vit. one or both of those values aren't the min possible, either. it could be something like 6.3875, which isn't an exact x/1024, so that wouldn't be the exact value, but in that area.

It's literally the same as Ochain for physical damage blocks

The stage 2 is "the same as Ochain" for physical damage blocks. Then you add 15 DEF, 35 VIT, 16 shield skill, and 35 evasion. And it's...still the same as Ochain? I guess those stats don't count, IDK.

Evasion lmao

Those other things are miniscule. Ignoring the fact that Ochain can have similar VIT anyway. The main thing is the potency and frequency of blocks. On extremely high level things, V25 tier, sure, Duban might average out to higher amount of blocked dmg over an entire fight if you're not able to cast Reprisal or use Palisade due to its shield skill. But otherwise they're identical. They block the same amount of damage and, outside of the very top end, they block the same amount of the time (and you can easily recap this for an ochain anyway). You're talking about further reducing low double digit or single digit damage with 15DEF, let's get real.

This isn't even considering the practical utility of the MP recovery but that's even more situational than 20 status resistance.

The MP recovery that's 25% of that single-digit damage?

Did you read the rest of the sentence or are you trolling? Try harder.

What would you say is the best shield in the game for blocking physical damage as a paladin?

115 def over ochain, not 15. For a lot of stuff that can be pretty significant, for some it might not be. Would have to agree Duban is a clear cut upgrade.

Ochain or Duban, depending on what you're fighting. As before, Duban will always win against hybrids. Duban is also better if the thing does a lot of magic damage but you can't afford to drop the block rate of a Size 6 shield. Otherwise, Ochain is equal to Duban in every practical way.

If you're trying to get me with a gotcha you're not going to. Duban is a sidegrade to the other shields, there is no argument on earth that can dispute this.


Can be but again this is extremely specific and not common. If you're failing to block a lot (maybe you have things fanned out around you in Sheol or something) the DEF would make more of a difference, but we're dealing with already low damage numbers on a job that already has monstrous levels of defense.

So it's better, but but not by enough to not be a sidegrade? In my experience that's not generally how people consider these things in this game :P

I'm not "generally" and I always thought the people overvaluing 1% DA and 1STR were stupid ftr.

I 100% stand by my statement that yes, it is a sidegrade, especially when the context is primes vs other options. If you want to say something like the great katana is a sidegrade, the shield absolutely is as well.

I guess in a hypothetical clean room where you're blocking 100% of attacks and the mob has no TP moves, does no magic damage, enemy fSTR is capped, and your evasion is floored then yeah, pretty much the same.

You know what, you're right. Ochain is the same as Duban, damn sidegrades.

A) You will be blocking 100% of attacks with an Ochain or Duban on just about anything in the game (besides, again, V25 tier content where you need to adjust gear/buffs) especially with Reprisal/Palisade or, somehow failing those (frequent full dispels, etc.), minor alterations to your gearset which has become much easier with odyssey and emp+3.

B) TP moves are largely physical, or do things that Duban wouldn't help against in any meaningful way (i.e., full dispel, zombie, etc.) outside of cases which I already mentioned (like hybrids, i.e. Searing Serration)

C) I already talked about magic damage and how DUban would be better for a mob that both does overwhelming magic dmg (where your meva and buffs wouldn't already be neutering it) and overwhelming physical damage. Attempting to attack a point that was never made is a sign of intellectual disingenuousness!

D) idk what enemy fSTR has to do with this, if you're once again trying to argue that reducing the minimal dmg that a PLD is already taking from a blocked hit by reducing enemy fSTR with 10 extra VIT is some kind of massive upgrade then I don't really know what to tell you.

E) Your evasion on PLD is practically always floored against anyting Omen level and above. That said, assuming you're using some weird Evasion set with mambos on your PLD for some reason, sure, I guess 35EVA is truly game changing and makes Duban the best evasion shield that PLD can wear.

If you're doing a prime presumably you want it for things you can't do or are difficult to do with other REMA.

So V25s and the like where even 50 attack/defense or a little extra damage counts for a lot.

You sure won't see a difference with any prime doing VD ambu or some ***. Though I know shouts on certain servers will ask for primes regardless.

Upgrades are upgrades.

In that case many of the weapons on that list are also upgrades and calling them sidegrades is incorrect. Axe, Katana, Great Katana, Polearm, and Great Axe can all be better than other options on lots of enemies, particularly ones where you can skillchain or ones that die quickly.

Palisade lasts 1 minute every 5 minutes, and unless you have capped haste all the time on PLD, you can't keep Reprisal up 100% of the time, so I fail to see how assuming 100% block rate on every mob you ever fight is realistic. I also live in the real world where it's not always possible to get every single enemy in front of you.

I think the fundamental problem here is that I'm defining better as "has better stats for doing this thing" and you're defining better as "makes a significant enough difference in enough in-game scenarios to be worth picking a prime weapon"

I'm not saying you should dump 8.5m muffins into Duban because it's so much better at physical damage than Ochain. I'm saying it's better. Objectively. You may not think it's "better enough" but it's literally better, in every single way (except giving MP back).

As you say:
It is, indisputably, the best shield you can get in FFXI to reduce the amount of physical damage you are taking from enemies. And it also has the other stats on it.

Absolute worst case for Duban is it's the exact same physical reduction as Ochain.

• If defense matters at all, say you can't line all the mobs up for blocking in sheol or dyna or whatever, it's clearly better. (+115def)

• If there are hybrid moves hitting you it's significantly better.

• If mob does any status moves at all it's very clearly better. (+35meva and +20 status resistance)

It's also a grind and a half to make though. If that's worth it or not will be a personal decision I guess, but to me this very clearly a straight upgrade.

I'd also agree some of the weapons would be clear upgrades though, even if not in every situation, but feel like dmg output gets a bit more complicated to compare than defensive value.

It's what you said. While you can ultimately say it is the best for reducing physical damage, that doesn't ultimately matter because further reducing the already nearly 0'd out physical damage that a PLD with Ochain is taking is practically meaningless. It does some things better in a much more meaningful way, but its primary purpose is the same as a shield that already exists. The game isn't a spreadsheet, the numbers matter but what really matters is what those numbers actually do, and in this case it ain't a *** lot. I'd constitute that sort of contribution as a sidegrade. And again, if we want to call Duban a clear upgrade, so is just about every prime weapon. So pick a camp and let's stick with it.