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Difficulty in FFXI - a retrospective
By Draylo 2023-01-03 22:22:38
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I know you're just reflecting the sentiment of the player base, but I really take serious umbrage with the community deciding on a whim that mechanics are "***" and they can just automate them away because they don't like them.
Anchor and React are total *** in my opinion, people are actively choosing to bypass the mechanics of the game to make it easier, and are justifying it by saying they don't like the mechanics or they're unfair/unfun. Sorry, if you don't think Spinys in SMB should hurt you when you jump on them because Mario is supposed to jump on enemies, it's still cheating if you use a game genie to change the code to remove that mechanic, no matter how much you dislike it.
In my opinion they are pretty bad overall. Circumventing mechanics for fights is def cheating. I really tried to push against automating in the past and these kinds of tactics but it got out of hand mostly. SE should have policed their game much better imo.
By Draylo 2023-01-03 22:27:05
Off topic a bit:
Quote: It would be better to debate why 75 era thumpers are wrong and they have nostalgia goggles bolted on.
How I see private servers now (kind of off topic a bit but won't go into it too far):
Private servers are effectively XI vet creation factories, they can be seen as an unlimited free trial of a game of a certain era (they don't go beyond a set era of the game and prob never will). That is custom made to endear the people on them to the game (or annoy them and offer a more user friendly alternative right away), but who over time realize they don't actually have the time / willpower to play the version they are enjoying.
There is a pathway from private server to retail, just as many of us loved the 75 era at the time but much prefer how the game is now so many of them will go the same way.
The thing with a PS is that the people who run them can't really make new content, or even really push the game beyond what they are beause they lack the tools and other things. So they aren't even a real replacement long term for the full game.
I see them as an overall positive in the grand scheme of things, on games with free play options they are less acceptable but on a sub only game they do make some sense because there is a pathway from one to the other.
There are private servers that have even Dynamis D, but most are buggy mess. So they do go beyond the 75 era but poorly. I really disagree with you overall, I think private servers are a complete detriment to retail. Just look at the video I linked on the first page, READ those comments! Just read the lunacy dripping off them. You have people trying to actively recruit others to a *free* private server. People actively bashing retail, thinking we are still in Abyssea at the end when we had super powered atma. These people are ALL over the place, Reddit, Youtube you name it. I have debated with them endlessly and theres a lot of them. Hell, even previous LS members of mine are jaded by current retail and think 75 era was best. I just dont see private servers as a benefit whatsoever for retail.
They are real hypocrites too, they hate trusts but only remember Abyssea where there were no trusts. Then they reference botting/multiboxing/gearswap when that was a thing for ages. They also have multi lv90s in XIV for people who hate any kind of modern MMO... go figure.
Also while we are on the topic, they use extreme fringe of players in retail to apply to everyone. Not everyone was soloing the hardest content, it was something only a very few skilled players were doing. Yet they hold that tarutaru player who soloed everything on RDM with bio DOT kiting, as some god of FFXI. Even Abyssea had its challenging content, initially we did it in alliances before atma. How many people did we see wipe to Rani and Shinryu? SE even posted a kill count for each monster during Abyssea era and it was very high. Those dolls had massive kill counts too lol
By Draylo 2023-01-03 22:45:43
Honestly because a part of me feels if nobody stands up for retail XI it will just be everyone accepting those comments as truth and more can end up quitting. A lot of people read those comments and watch those videos but dont post. Mostly the vocal minority posts and thinks they are the majority.
This is especially true during periods where XI has been in a slow rut, in terms of content and news. A lot of people see overall negativity and it leads them to quit. It's always been true. Why should those people get to ***on retail using misinformation and cause others to quit or adopt their biased negative opinions. It might seem silly but it's a niche game with a small audience so in my opinion it's worth being a voice amongst the hatred.
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 Leviathan.Kroot
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3
By Leviathan.Kroot 2023-01-03 22:52:44
Simple positioning is annoying for multi boxing. Doesn’t mean the fight is hard for 6 humans. Pretty easy to make things hard to multibox but FFXI historically is less about positioning from a design perspective where 14 is very much about positioning. Super buffing worked well on most things for a long time because of how aoe dmg scales, mob tp, and exponential gains fundamentally to main mechanics.
What I appreciated about the game for a while was it’s attempt(maybe an accident) to not depend on positioning and super fast timing and more overarching strategy but still real time.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 837
By Asura.Iamaman 2023-01-03 23:22:59
There is a lot of *** being spread by people who haven't played retail in a decade or more, it's really bad on Reddit.
I feel somewhat torn on debating them, I know it will do no good because the moment you point out any flaw in their precious favorite period of the game, it's like you kicked their puppy, insulted their mother, and told them who you voted for all in one. People take it way too personally and I quit debating it with people a long time ago, you aren't going to win someone over whose entire opinion and perspective comes from an echo chamber and a refusal to try it to form an opinion on experience.
I really don't care if someone plays retail, gives it a shot, then decides they prefer private servers for whatever reason. At least they put effort in and can make a somewhat educated opinion. It's the ones who haven't played in 10 years and whine about how easy the game is when they haven't done anything in it in forever or only logged in for an hour during free login. I feel like Draylo has a point about defending retail and calling out the ***, but at the same time it feels like a lost cause, the recent threads around that "fav period of the game" poll being a good example. You can argue till you are blue in the face with those types and they'll just block you or tell you that you are wrong without backing it up, it's a wasted effort, and that applies to a lot more than just this game.
I am slightly surprised SE allows these to continue operation, though. I can see why the devs would make that decision, but an organization the size of SE allowing private servers to exist seems a little surprising.
 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-01-03 23:30:42
They implode themselves, it's wasted effort to even bother.
And boy do they love not giving any effort, lemme tell ya.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3915
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-03 23:49:18
I am slightly surprised SE allows these to continue operation, though. I can see why the devs would make that decision, but an organization the size of SE allowing private servers to exist seems a little surprising. Someone versed in copyright law may have some better insight, but I'd presume that its because these servers dont run for profit among other things. And since its not for profit, SE would have to prove that the private servers take away from their revenue. However, seeing as how the private servers offer a different, older / modified version of FFXI, it would be a huge uphill battle to prove these private servers are pulling revenue away from FFXI.
Quetzalcoatl.Jakey
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 300
By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2023-01-04 00:10:41
I have a ton of great memories of the 75 era but there is no way I would ever want to go back there today, I don't have time to spend 20 minutes just to get to camp so I can have the party disband when they find out they invited a drg to replace them. Part of why I have such great memories of the 75 era though is that I had the time to do that, didn't have to worry about work or life, I miss those days.
As to the difficulty, I fully agree that the difficulty in 75 era was logistical in nature far more than anything else, lvling was hard so you had limited options in endgame and had to find ways to make your setup work, on top of that most of the events based around when certain NMs spawn rather than when you spawned them further limiting your options. The actual fights were not particularly challenging other than if you were missing key jobs. (ignoring AV/PW as they were clearly supposed to be unbeatable for much of the time)
I agree Delve had really good difficulty at first, my problem with delve is it immediately gave you gear that didn't just make it a little easier but would turn it into almost trivial content as long as you didn't forget the mechanics.
As to the complaints about react and stuff I will say I really appreciate SE finally fixing some of these ambuscades to make it actually reasonable for NA players to respond in time without react, I know a lot of players who used react just for those ambuscades so it really does make a difference that those are much more doable without react now and I've actually seen players switching to not using react and I think that's great. I think if SE reduced the knock back spam on a lot of fights you would similarly see anchor become less used and hopefully more taboo. Knock backs I think can be a good mechanic but it should just happen a few times to make people adjust positioning, when it gets spammed everyone just puts their backs to walls which messes up cameras and basically wipes out use of a lot of abilities like cover or trick attack.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 837
By Asura.Iamaman 2023-01-04 00:23:18
As for Odyssey, it seems like they are trying to force players into the patterns they intended for the fights instead of the strats we ended up with. For Kalunga, Ngai, Xevioso, and Ongo, I think the strats we ended up with are probably close to what they expected.
For Mboze, we know the TP denial strat was not an intended strategy. I'd probably go as far as Arebati being primarily a ranged strat not being intended, as well, even if they haven't said it.
Then again, that would have required planning going back to v0 and assumes they are making mechanic adjustments to compensate for our strategies, but they aren't (at least they haven't after the initial release). The moves these mobs use haven't changed and most mechanics are the same, they just added new adds in and scaled their stats (DT, regen, regain, stats, HP, etc). I think they probably just kept scaling them up a static % and assumed we'd eventually end up at the intended strategies, which clearly hasn't happened. They aren't turning around and actively nerfing our strats, intended or not, the scale increase seems less deliberate.
Arebati is more perplexing to me than Mboze. How they expected a melee group (again assuming RNG was never the intention) to deal with AoE full dispels, high AoE damage, terror, encumbrance, and amnesia in a 15min window is beyond me. There is so much packed into his TP moves that there is no way you could get lucky enough to avoid something killing the run.
There is also something that's been interesting to me for a while, over the summer they had an unrelated (no Odyssey content changes) update roll out that briefly enabled subjobs in Gaol. They did an emergency fix a few hours later, but it seems odd to me that got rolled out and it's not something that I would expect to be a trivial change (more than a figurative switch flip). It makes me wonder if the devs were testing some of these with subjobs enabled or are considering a future balance change to incorporate SJs into Gaol somehow, and the test code got rolled out by accident.
EDIT: I lied, it was last April. Way too soon for them to have been testing v25.
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By Dazusu 2023-01-04 01:17:27
Why should those people get to ***on retail using misinformation and cause others to quit or adopt their biased negative opinions.
To play devil's advocate: if there are players actively engaged in retail, wouldn't they know the truth about what retail is/isn't, and what's true/unrue about it? Surely if they quit - it's an informed decision and not about 'misinformation'.
Your argument holds more weight if you're saying it prevents people coming back to the game, or from trying it for the first time.
The reality is if someone is actively playing and quits - it's unlikely to be because of negativity on FFXIAH or <insert other medium>.
If I quit, it's normally because I'm burned out or the current content cycle isn't interesting to me. Not because people are whining on a forum or reddit.
 Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10101
By Asura.Sechs 2023-01-04 01:42:08
I really miss Delve so much, I personally think it was my favorite era in the game. Delve wasn't perfect, I could list a few things that had to be fixed but it was all a bunch of minor things.
Not sure how much of it comes from incredibly genious game design planning and how much it's just pure luck, but the end result was undoubtely very, very, very good.
One of the best end-game content ever created for FFXI, imho.
But to get things back in topic, I don't think it was incredibly difficult. It was "fair" and there was a clear sense of progression.
Beyond things that normally make a fresh content "difficult" and that have already been discussed in this topic, the main culprit of what made Delve "difficult" was the transition to the ilevel model. It happened like 2 weeks before Delve release, and there were lack of options.
As you slowly gathered gear from other content (Skirmish? Reives/Coalition? Delve itself?) the content slowly but steadily became "easier" with very little RNG ***, most things were under the players' control and you could feel a sense of "progression".
Bahamut.Negan
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2195
By Bahamut.Negan 2023-01-04 01:52:57
Getting a party on MNK or DRG was real endgame back then
By Draylo 2023-01-04 02:27:25
Why should those people get to ***on retail using misinformation and cause others to quit or adopt their biased negative opinions.
To play devil's advocate: if there are players actively engaged in retail, wouldn't they know the truth about what retail is/isn't, and what's true/unrue about it? Surely if they quit - it's an informed decision and not about 'misinformation'.
Your argument holds more weight if you're saying it prevents people coming back to the game, or from trying it for the first time.
The reality is if someone is actively playing and quits - it's unlikely to be because of negativity on FFXIAH or <insert other medium>.
If I quit, it's normally because I'm burned out or the current content cycle isn't interesting to me. Not because people are whining on a forum or reddit.
You would be surprised, its something that actively does influence people to quit that are playing. They see all the negative comments about the state of the game and say screw it, I'm just gonna unsub. I have had a lot of friends even cite the negative community sentiment as one of the reasons they left.
That and also the fact that it does actively dissuade people from returning (or even trying during free periods) and any potential new players (no matter how tiny that % is.)
Its certainly not a positive, thats for sure. Who is it helping except people who want more to come over to a private server to populate it.
There is a lot of *** being spread by people who haven't played retail in a decade or more, it's really bad on Reddit.
I feel somewhat torn on debating them, I know it will do no good because the moment you point out any flaw in their precious favorite period of the game, it's like you kicked their puppy, insulted their mother, and told them who you voted for all in one. People take it way too personally and I quit debating it with people a long time ago, you aren't going to win someone over whose entire opinion and perspective comes from an echo chamber and a refusal to try it to form an opinion on experience.
I really don't care if someone plays retail, gives it a shot, then decides they prefer private servers for whatever reason. At least they put effort in and can make a somewhat educated opinion. It's the ones who haven't played in 10 years and whine about how easy the game is when they haven't done anything in it in forever or only logged in for an hour during free login. I feel like Draylo has a point about defending retail and calling out the ***, but at the same time it feels like a lost cause, the recent threads around that "fav period of the game" poll being a good example. You can argue till you are blue in the face with those types and they'll just block you or tell you that you are wrong without backing it up, it's a wasted effort, and that applies to a lot more than just this game.
I am slightly surprised SE allows these to continue operation, though. I can see why the devs would make that decision, but an organization the size of SE allowing private servers to exist seems a little surprising.
Yeah... I noticed that after posting on Reddit for the first time. They were voting anything I said down and then reporting me, someone sent me a self help bot "we heard you were potentially in a bad situation and had negative thoughts, heres a crisis line."
It really does feel pointless sometimes, because they always end up resorting to personal attacks and trying to make you seem crazy to devalue your opinion. Sadly those 75 era purists hate retail so much they want it to fail just so they can say "ha! I told you so" even tho they've been saying that since before Abyssea. I'm not a stranger to being hated for my opinion so I just keep going, they get to leave comments then so will I.
I just post with the idea that someone is reading it and seeing some sense. I used to get PMs during Abyssea era. That time period was filled with tons of people hating the direction the game took. People were PMing me saying some awful things and others were agreeing with my posts but didnt want to get into the debates because they knew it all boiled down to personal attacks in the end. I've even made some friends that were on the verge of quitting and joined me for some stuff and ended up having fun. General community sentiment can really impact players on that edge, thinking of quitting. It just influences peoples opinions when everyone is hating on something, just in general.
As the game ages and the company cares little for it overall, they just keep attacking retail and thinking they are right due to the dwindling population but that is due to a lot of other factors, mainly SE themselves.
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 204
By Cerberus.Immortalmoon 2023-01-04 03:29:46
been playing retail from 2004 yet the drunk dragoon can't find the way to the lion springs tavern for a drink!
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By Mattelot 2023-01-04 06:53:30
leveling was harder than something like Odyssey or Delve
Leveling in the 75 era wasn't so much hard as it was often overly time-consuming. Sitting around waiting for hours just to get into a group or seeking a viable composition and then hoping the group succeeds after your often long trek just to get where you needed to be. I'm sure all of us that played in that era have had more than 1 time when we waited around for a long while only to end up in a group that is not successful and disbands shortly after. As others said, it wasn't as much "difficulty" as it was time. It took excessive time and it always took multiple people to do just about everything really meaningful.
I know you hate XIV but that's one thing I love about it. I'm not a bachelor anymore or one of those guys who still lives with their parents or lives off the state and can play video games all day long. I have a family so even getting an hour of playtime is good. I can log in for an hour and accomplish meaningful things... progressing, etc.
Circumventing mechanics for fights is def cheating.
And people who did this back in the day to get "world first" still pat themselves on the back as if they actually earned it.
There is a lot of *** being spread by people who haven't played retail in a decade or more, it's really bad on Reddit.
Spreading ***isn't exclusive there. I see a lot of it spread here and every other forum related.
One thing I noticed and commented on not long ago was how private server people have told me they think retail players are rude, etc when I see them taking jabs at retail every chance they get while I do not see the reciprocal.
I feel somewhat torn on debating them, I know it will do no good because the moment you point out any flaw in their precious favorite period of the game, it's like you kicked their puppy, insulted their mother, and told them who you voted for all in one. People take it way too personally and I quit debating it with people a long time ago, you aren't going to win someone over whose entire opinion and perspective comes from an echo chamber and a refusal to try it to form an opinion on experience.
That too isn't exclusive to there either. That too happens here. In either place, you get dogpiled by people who are incompetent but really really really want to feel like they belong in the discussion.
On the flip side, that's one thing I do not like about XIV. Their forums of any kind, anything bad or even critical you say will result in you being dogpiled.
I just post with the idea that someone is reading it and seeing some sense.
It's one of those things where you have to read the room. If a forum is part of a hivemind or you can tell that incompetency is the "new cool" there, it's best to avoid it altogether because no matter how right you are, you're not going to win that battle.
It really does feel pointless sometimes, because they always end up resorting to personal attacks and trying to make you seem crazy to devalue your opinion.
Exactly. People will try gaslighting you or instead of being a decent human being and saying "You know what? You're right (or "I messed up"), they feel it necessary to resort to sophomoric insults, the inevitable and dated "reading comprehension" response, etc. Or they'll follow you from post to post, disagreeing with everything else you've said. Not because they actually disagree with it but because you're the one who said it. What's even more sad is how old most of these people are. My kids have more common sense.
By GetHelpNerd 2023-01-04 07:51:46
no idea where that's coming from, private server players generally don't post anywhere relevant like ffxiah.
they don't really care about the retail version of the game at all.
you all spend a lot of time obsessing over them though.
2023 challenge, see if draylo can go a day without saying he's being personally attacked
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Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9916
By Asura.Saevel 2023-01-04 08:11:26
I really miss Delve so much, I personally think it was my favorite era in the game. Delve wasn't perfect, I could list a few things that had to be fixed but it was all a bunch of minor things.
Not sure how much of it comes from incredibly genious game design planning and how much it's just pure luck, but the end result was undoubtely very, very, very good.
One of the best end-game content ever created for FFXI, imho.
But to get things back in topic, I don't think it was incredibly difficult. It was "fair" and there was a clear sense of progression.
Beyond things that normally make a fresh content "difficult" and that have already been discussed in this topic, the main culprit of what made Delve "difficult" was the transition to the ilevel model. It happened like 2 weeks before Delve release, and there were lack of options.
As you slowly gathered gear from other content (Skirmish? Reives/Coalition? Delve itself?) the content slowly but steadily became "easier" with very little RNG ***, most things were under the players' control and you could feel a sense of "progression".
iLevel didn't take place for at least a month or three after Delve was out. The gear clearly had higher stats then anything else in the game but they hadn't started stamping iLevel / +skill / stat vomit yet, I remember having to borrow someone's Senbak as a DRK DPS in an alliance run. I got my Tojil / Shark / Bee clear as part of a big event LS prior to the iLevel update. Once the stamped iLevel / stat vomit on stuff those fights got way easier.
That is part of the confusion about OG delve, very different experience depending on when they did it.
By Mattelot 2023-01-04 08:11:58
no idea where that's coming from, private server players generally don't post anywhere relevant like ffxiah.
I talk to several of them on Discord. Was actually talking to one as I clicked this.
2023 challenge, see if draylo can go a day without saying he's being personally attacked
Or you talking about Draylo!
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2558
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 08:25:23
When you make cheesy ambu content and ask people to pick between the shitty option of doing dumb mechanics with 5 other people or the slightly less shitty option, they are logically going to pick what's better for them.
Great justification for blatant cheating. "I chose the easier option, instead of struggling against the game". You can say this about literally all cheating in the entire world.
"Why struggle against the weight of heavy objects, when I can just use a forklift to raise them?"
"Why eat the hotdogs in an eating contest when you can take the slightly less shitty option and throw them in the trashcan and declare victory?"
Sure, if you want to pick and choose which mechanics are "cheesy" and have a computer program complete the ones you don't agree with for you, then you're right, it's "logically the option better for them". It is definitely "logical" to cheat past mechanics. I mean ***, if there was a third party program which reduced the enemy's HP to 0, it would be easier and why struggle with trying to WS, SC, MB, and cure yourselves? DUH just pick the easier option, that way you don't have to struggle with PUGs.
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Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9916
By Asura.Saevel 2023-01-04 09:01:16
And the victim blaming continues.
"Evil cheater scum, you should of ran through our death trap filled random pain olympics labyrinth to get that cheese instead of flying over it".
Never questioning what kind of sadistic asshat thought it was a good idea to build a deathtrap filled random pain olympic labyrinth in the first place.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-01-04 09:03:08
Instead of cheating, you're supposed to just not *** do it.
(Yeah, tell addicts not to be addicts and do anything to get their fix, right)
Doing *** tells them you're happy doing ***.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2558
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 09:16:53
And the victim blaming continues.
Sorry, what? You're a victim of an enemy using a TP move? Do you read your own text before you submit it? Do you think the enemies are supposed to be on your side or something?
Yes, the enemies have weakness moves, they have full dispels, they have all stats down, zombie, they can knock you back, remove your TP, remove your gear, petrify you if you don't look away, return your damage back to you.
These are their tools, and the video game is for you and your team to figure out ways to deal with all of these. You can turn during weakness, re-apply buffs after they're removed, use panacea, sacrifice, wait to WS until it is settled and re-position everyone, get TP again, put the gear back on, turn away when you see the enemy use the TP move, and stop doing damage during Pain Sync.
Do people make mistakes and is it possible to *** up these mechanics? Sure. But that's called a video game; you won't always be successful, the game is there to challenge you, not to hand you gear for having set up your bots, luas, and programs to complete the game for you.
Sure, can you die to Pain Sync because you quad attacked with an empyrean weapon? Yeah, because you're using the wrong weapon and being reckless. Use a different weapon, a different WS, and apply shitloads of debuffs to the mob so he's more likely to use Winds of Promy instead of Pain Sync. WS only during his TP moves (that aren't PS).
IDK, maybe the previous version of Lamia was too unforgiving and you couldn't humanly react to their TP moves or something. As yet I've never found a single scenario in the game so painfully impossible that I had to cheat to complete it. And if there was something like that, I would just not do it. 100% of the content in this game is completable without cheating. If you want to cheat because it's too hard for you, that's fine, just don't take so much copium that you think you're the victim here and the game is an impossible deathtrap which is totally impossible without cheats, because it's really pathetic.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-01-04 09:20:19
For what it's worth pain sync was ***, they admitted it, and changed it. (it's still ridiculous by the way with latency, even with react turning you, you can still swing and instantly die even with an onion dagger lol)
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2558
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 09:23:58
Sorry, what? You are going to kill yourself with a single swing from an onion dagger? It reflects (according to a very quick Google search) 40% of the damage you deal. Are you doing 5,500 damage with your single onion dagger swing?
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-01-04 09:28:47
You can't control multi procs and onion dagger is hyperbole (but probably still possible as overtuned as we are)
A TA with any 119 weapon, you die
Gotten all my trusts killed dozens of times with karambit/tauret/gokotai (in shitty ambuscade gear) even with react running away on use. Lose trusts, it's a wrap.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2558
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 09:35:13
OK well if you're at a point where you're given yourself so many buffs that your normal attack round is 5500 damage, you're doing the fight wrong. Have a lower damage weapon, remove some buffs, or (sub 25) turn away from the mob until it uses a TP move, and then if it's anything but pain sync, turn around and whack it a few times while it's preparing.
You can't seriously expect the game to let you win when you choose the wrong tactics and do the mechanics wrong. Like Oh I spammed water nukes on Dhartok and it killed me! What the hell SE, why are you making this game impossible! I took 15 empyrean DDs into the Glassy Gorger and he started randomly 1shotting us! This game is so ridiculous I'm just going to use my invincibility hacks because how else did they expect us to kill these impossible bosses?
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2558
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 09:35:59
A TA with any 119 weapon, you die
Please show me your 2,000 damage auto attacks with Naegling on Glassy Thinker. Here's a bonus challenge: do it with a BRD.
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9916
By Asura.Saevel 2023-01-04 09:43:37
Lol, the community has already spoken on this issue.
Dude be like
"Buuh buhh I feel the community is wronnnnnngg!!!!!!!"
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-01-04 09:44:58
I don't take ss of pain syncs to argue with for later, next time it happens ill save it
I have zero current accounts with naegling so don't expect your specific request anytime soon.
Bit early maybe, but I'd like to read more opinions on other old time FFXI players concerning content difficulty in FFXI.
First of all a premise, what is "difficulty"?
I don't think there is an unambiguous way to define it, it's subject to context, personal opinions and scenarios.
Ultimately the most efficient way to measure it would be by amount of players completing a specific content in a window of time post release. A smaller number of players completing a content X weeks after release, would hint at that content being more "difficult" than others. With the uningnorable key aspect that it's hard to measure it since there is no official, open and transparent list (like in WoW for instance) and we only get approximate values from boards like FFXIAH, where only a small part of the overall player base participate in discussions, hence this can lead to biased perceptions.
Also right now we have a much smaller player base compared to several years ago, this skews the results because there are less overall attempts at a specific content, at the same time on average the player-base still playing these days is likely more proficient at the game than the average level we had several years ago.
The amount of different tools in the players' hands and how widespread they are compared to several years ago, also affects the result.
From the developers' point of view
"Balancing" the difficulty of content for Devs is much higher when you have too many variables at play.
This is exactly the reason why over the years most MMOs, following WoW's model, tried to standardize these variables.
With less and less of them at play, it's easier for Devs to "control" the environment and hence create a more predictable one where the difficulty isn't too hard or too easy according to those variables.
WoW started this progressively with several steps bit by bit. The most important one has been the "homogeneization" approach started in patch 3.0 (WotLK), followed by 4.0 (Cataclysm).
In FFXI the definition of "roles" according to the trinity system is more bland. This is made furtherly complex by the fact you can customize role/purpose by combining different subjobs, by variable number of players participating in the content (3-18) and by the fact that there's a plethora of different support buffs, most of which can be combined together because they don't share the same slot.
This makes it incredibly hard for devs to "balance" content because players have too much freedom and what can be borderline impossible with some setups, becomes a joke with some combinations (synergy) of specific jobs/buffs.
Lately SE tried its own way to "standardize" things without completely changing the game approach like WoW did.
They did this by creating limitations (6 people content, no subjob, WS wall), immunities (targets immune to several abilities/spells/effects) and "fuck you" mechanics (instant death, unresistable full dispel, AoE weakened status, targets ignoring enmity rules, systems that require a specific proc with that proc getting progressively harder to activate each following time) and much higher HP pools of targets (making zergs with buff-stacking and short duration invincibility things like Perfect Defense, uneffective, especially in environment where content is fixed for 6 people and not variable).
All of these features together greatly limitate the excessive freedom in the hands of players, making content somewhat more "equally difficult" instead than being excessively difficult with some setups, but easy with some others.
A Retrospective of end-game content difficulty
Here's my personal take on some end-game content I can think of
Abyssea Difficulty increased with each release, but ultimately it wasn't too high thanks to the extreme power granted by zone buffs, atmas, proc system and last but not least Primeval Brew. Once you unlocked all the "good" stuff, it wasn't really a big deal. Also you had the freedom granted by being allowed to bring up to 18 people. Same old FFXI situation with some stuff being very hard with most setups, but extremely easy with multiple specific setups. Also things progressively became easier and easier as you unlocked stuff (KIs, Atmas, Buffs, last but not least increased level cap)
Voidwatch Situation similar to Abyssea but with less "power creep" because it was already level 99 content and Atmacites/Buffs were less powerful than in Abyssea. The hardest fights in Voidwatch were tough and hardly farmable by anyone, but still doable once you unlocked the right stuff and used one of the multiple available "easy" setups.
Legion No Atmacites, no zone buffs, the addition of (back then) new zone enmity rules, several fuck-up moves but you had the "freedom" of bringing up to 18 people. Content was very, very difficult but if amount of support jobs with necessary gear and amount of addons (react etc) were as widespread as they are today, content would've been perceived as easier. Still, much harder than the others listed so far.
Delve Difficult content requiring the activation of specific gimmicks (granted by specific setups) on most of the NMs involved. Doing all 6 bosses in the same run was challenging at start, especially because of the lack of gear options due to the transition to ilevel paradygm. You still had the freedom granted by up to 18 people and had mostly to rely on stunning the dangerous moves. Difficult, interesting and "fair" content. Arguably full-runs granted too many points compared to the non-complete runs and with the amount of gear options we have nowadays, it would've been trivial.
Incursion Hard because of the uncommon (back then) zone enmity rules, the amount of AoE moves and frequent dispels, in addition to very dangerous moves from some NMs. Difficulty was potentially very high at the maximum level, but you didn't really have all that need to farm the content at the max difficulty level, it was unefficient and unnecessary (as a matter of fact, only a couple of groups managed to, back then)
Vagary Content was unfriendly for melee, which is one of the reason why mage setups were so favoured. Several fuck-up moves but there were multiple ways of dealing with them, in addition to the freedom granted by the up to 18 people. Easily farmable once the pop conditions were found out.
Aeonic (Zi'tah, Ru'aun, Reisen highest tier battles) The hardest fights were quite challenging, notably WoC, Kiryu and the 7 Reisen bosses. That's before the SMN burns became widespread. Ultimately power creep (from Job Points first, then gear) made the content progressively easier but at start it was quite tough. Despite being able to bring up to 18 people the HP scaling of bosses arguably made killing with 6-8 people easier than bringing 18
Omen Content was tough when you could only bring 6 people. Being able to bring 18, the tweaks to some moves of the minibosses and ultimately the power creep from gear/job points made the content quite easy and accessible
Master Trials These were quite tough, especially but not only for the 6 people limitation. The entry cost and cosmetic-only rewards didn't make it that popular for a lot of players, at the same time though you didn't feel like you were missing out a lot by deciding to skip it (sigh). Ultimately made easier thanks to the power creep (Job Points, Gear)
Divergence Dynamis The biggest enemy in here was lag and the amount of packet loss :-P Jokes aside this content was somewhat challenging at start, so many things could go wrong even simply with a series of bad pulls with too many statues with the wrong eyes at the worst moment. You still had a lot of freedom with the up to 18 people allowed in. I feel this content made it easier for larger groups than smaller ones. Some W2 bosses were arguably tough, Wave 3 had very steep requirements at start in terms of Accuracy needed, there were less valid options for DT/Hybrid sets for most jobs. W3 bosses presented some challenges but also gave you the option to make the fight easier by killing all Fetters. While ultimately made much easier thanks to the huge amount of new gear available (and now master levels) I'd say this can still be somewhat challenging for small groups
Odyssey Sheol-Gaol The highest tier of this content is quite difficult, to the point some things not only haven't been beated yet, weeks after release (which is something I'd say unusual, given FFXI's history over the last few years) but some haven't even being attempted yet.
The content creates a more "controllable" environment by limitating the amount of players who can participate, disabling the freedom granted by subjobs and gating the content behind a currency used to attempt the fights (segments), which you can only gain in limited amounts, once per day.
There are incredibly high incentives to tackle this content on the highest difficulty, to unlock augments cap and to efficiently farm the high amount of points required.
The several limitations in setups required for each fight, entry fees, difficulty unlock and multiple "fuck off" mechanics give these fights little space for error and leave maybe too much in the hands of random things that the players cannot control in any way.
My personal take is that, thanks to the extremely controlled environment Odyssey Sheol Gaol is so far the "most difficult" content for FFXI.
They succeeded in making the hardest version of the content "desirable".
They succeeded in limitating the huge amount of freedom/synergy in the hands of players, hence creating content that's more averagely/regularly difficult, instead that the classic Black or White FFXI situation (where a content is extremely hard with most setups, but somewhat easy with a few others).
They succeded in creating this extremely controlled environment, without completely changing the core of the game (like WoW, for instance).
They failed in making, in my humble opinion, the content a bit too unaccessible (too many requirements, too many punishments, too many random/uncontrollable things).
I'm glad they managed to reach these goals.
I hope over the next few years the content will be progressively made more accessible for everyone but I don't see how they can do it given how there are no Job adjustments plans, ML is capped at 50 (and quite hard to reach) etc.
We'll see!
All things said, despite me whining a lot for all the choices they made for Odyssey, I can somewhat see why they made them and apreciate the fact they managed to reach this level of challenge.
Wish the content would mantain this level of challenge but with more reasonable/accessible requirements, but oh well, it is what it is.
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