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Mnk H2H choices
 Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-03 18:48:33
Also the defense edge that Sagitta gives you, can probably be easily achieved by simply using something like Defending ring for both TP and WS and DPS would probably be similar. Just checked in sheet and R15 Godhands vs Sagitta A, with Impetus down and using Howling Fist, Godhands has still slightly higher DPS even when you take off Gere ring completely during TP and WS.
EDIT: For Impetus UP and Victory Smite spam, with R15 Veret you can have empty ring, earring and ammo slots during TP and WS and still come on top of SagittaA. So you could full time Defending ring, Odnowa earring R15 and Staunch (which is much more defensive values than SagittaA offers over other weapons) with VeretR15 and still have higher DPS. What kind of results are you getting? Just for humor, with 1 defense, evasion, vit and agi values.
By SimonSes 2021-01-03 19:10:10
Also the defense edge that Sagitta gives you, can probably be easily achieved by simply using something like Defending ring for both TP and WS and DPS would probably be similar. Just checked in sheet and R15 Godhands vs Sagitta A, with Impetus down and using Howling Fist, Godhands has still slightly higher DPS even when you take off Gere ring completely during TP and WS.
EDIT: For Impetus UP and Victory Smite spam, with R15 Veret you can have empty ring, earring and ammo slots during TP and WS and still come on top of SagittaA. So you could full time Defending ring, Odnowa earring R15 and Staunch (which is much more defensive values than SagittaA offers over other weapons) with VeretR15 and still have higher DPS. What kind of results are you getting? Just for humor, with 1 defense, evasion, vit and agi values.
For that Impetus up? I actually made small mistake not putting bhikku +1 for WS, so on normal enemies its more like break even with empty ring, earring and ammo for TP and empty ring and ammo for WS.
For your specific target tho, its 9465 DPS for SagittaA with full equip and 9243 DPS for VeretR15 with empty ring1, ear1 and ammo for both TP and WS.
Cerberus.Dekar
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 229
By Cerberus.Dekar 2021-01-03 19:47:30
But afaik, augmenting it gonna wipe off the signature
The signature stays, oddly enough. I still have it on my WHM and PLD.
[+]
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-03 19:53:17
Also the defense edge that Sagitta gives you, can probably be easily achieved by simply using something like Defending ring for both TP and WS and DPS would probably be similar. Just checked in sheet and R15 Godhands vs Sagitta A, with Impetus down and using Howling Fist, Godhands has still slightly higher DPS even when you take off Gere ring completely during TP and WS.
EDIT: For Impetus UP and Victory Smite spam, with R15 Veret you can have empty ring, earring and ammo slots during TP and WS and still come on top of SagittaA. So you could full time Defending ring, Odnowa earring R15 and Staunch (which is much more defensive values than SagittaA offers over other weapons) with VeretR15 and still have higher DPS. What kind of results are you getting? Just for humor, with 1 defense, evasion, vit and agi values.
For that Impetus up? I actually made small mistake not putting bhikku +1 for WS, so on normal enemies its more like break even with empty ring, earring and ammo for TP and empty ring and ammo for WS.
For your specific target tho, its 9465 DPS for SagittaA with full equip and 9243 DPS for VeretR15 with empty ring1, ear1 and ammo for both TP and WS. What about without impetus, but still using victory smite?
For reference I am comparing this for impetus down, again on a target with 1 in all stats, I'm just trying to get a ballpark in case of any bugs: Code def All_Buffs():
ml.All_Capped(casey)
mb.Haste_II(casey)
mb.Honor_March(casey)
mb.Victory_March(casey)
mb.Samurai_Roll(casey)
def TP_Set():
me.sagitta_a(casey)
me.ginsen(casey)
me.adhemar_bonnet_1_b(casey)
me.ken_samue_1(casey)
me.adhemar_wrist_1_b(casey)
me.bhikku_hose_1(casey)
me.anch_gaiters_3(casey)
me.mnk_nodowa_2(casey)
me.moonbow_belt_1(casey)
me.telos_earring(casey)
me.sherida_earring(casey)
me.gere_ring(casey)
me.niqmaddu_ring(casey)
me.segomos_str_da(casey)
All_Buffs()
All_Calculations()
def Victory_Smite_Set():
me.sagitta_a(casey)
me.knobkierrie(casey)
me.adhemar_bonnet_1_b(casey)
me.anch_cyclas_3(casey)
me.adhemar_wrist_1_b(casey)
me.ken_hakama_1(casey)
me.ken_sune_ate_1(casey)
me.mnk_nodowa_2(casey)
me.moonbow_belt_1(casey)
me.telos_earring(casey)
me.sherida_earring(casey)
me.gere_ring(casey)
me.niqmaddu_ring(casey)
me.segomos_str_da(casey)
All_Buffs()
All_Calculations()
Shiva.Thorny
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2772
By Shiva.Thorny 2021-01-03 20:01:17
Post your set then please, because I would rather not guess what are you using and without knowing it, I cant really try to change it and compare DPS. You have hybrid set in your Item Sets, but its not 50%DT and not 75% SB, so I guess its not that one. I haven't played or touched my sets in almost a year, I legit wasn't calling you wrong and was just curious if you had a comparable set's dps numbers. Still am, but probably forget about the thread by morning anyway.
I also disagree on "The safer option is essentially always better". Its only better when survivability gain is actually needed to survive. Every bit of survivability you have above the threshold you need to survive is essentially wasted. The best build would be something that has ideal balance of required survivability while keeping highest possible DPS. You can say that XI players are obsessed with DPS, but from what you are saying, I could conclude you are a little obsessed with survivability. I can concede that I heavily favor survivability, though when you're talking about killspeed differences in the range of <5%, I find it hard to get excited about DPS. It's when you have the competition element that DPS matters, I guess.
For your specific target tho, its 9465 DPS for SagittaA with full equip and 9243 DPS for VeretR15 with empty ring1, ear1 and ammo for both TP and WS. That really doesn't sell me on using Vereth over Sagitta. You're 2.5% dps down to begin with, but Sagitta still has the option to run d.ring(and/or other hybrid pieces) alongside it and end up way ahead in DT again. The cost argument is certainly a solid point, though, given how close they seem.
 Asura.Yankke
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 91
By Asura.Yankke 2021-01-03 20:10:59
So i guess mythic and relic is a no go. since everyone talk about vere, gh only...
Bahamut.Negan
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2193
By Bahamut.Negan 2021-01-03 20:18:41
So i guess mythic and relic is a no go. since everyone talk about vere, gh only... Mythic's GREAT (for lockstyle)
 Phoenix.Oyama
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 103
By Phoenix.Oyama 2021-01-03 20:28:14
I made the Relic because I wanted the afterglow effect for a lockstyle set lol. I also like messing with counter and kicking sets though, and for certain defensive situations they are pretty cool.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2021-01-03 20:32:44
GH Vere Sagitta are all fugly. Get spharai.
Shiva.Thorny
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2772
By Shiva.Thorny 2021-01-03 20:36:19
Spharai having less counter than jolt+1 is still not ok. SE plz.
Lakshmi.Buukki
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-01-03 20:50:00
I can't even find a justifiable excuse for dumping all those swarts into spharai back when I did. I just did it to tell my grandkids someday, Spharai sucks. Don't ever make one*
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-03 21:00:40
Pretty sure I found and fixed any bugs. So for some caveats, I'm too lazy to add maintenance of AM3 for now, so Spharai, Verethragna and Glanzfaust will have it regardless (like the spreadsheets do anyways.) I would estimate in the 3 minute duration for vere to lose around 5 to 7 hundred DPS building from 0 to 3K. Karambit effect does work as it would in game. I also have not added all WSs yet, so no howling fist. Fights start at 0 impetus stacks and 0 TP. Forced mob values to be 1, so fSTR and dDEX are capped for all weapons. I didn't go super into min-maxing every weapon's set and used these for all weapons, swapping to bhikku with impetus up.
ItemSet 377430
ItemSet 377431
Code Impetus Down:
Spharai: 7801.26 26345.04
Glanzfaust: 7203.73 27854.8
Verethragna: 7825.47 30264.57
Godhands: 6955.09 27990.84
Karambit: 6654.12 25660.03
Sagitta A: 6875.41 26218.94
Impetus Up:
Spharai: 10814.95 36758.58
Glanzfaust: 9993.73 38955.37
Verethragna: 10751.79 42271.0
Godhands: 9516.49 38031.99
Karambit: 9155.44 35842.52
Sagitta A: 9510.9 36740.64
This is obviously not the best case scenario for weapons like Godhands and not a terribly realistic situation. Comparing with more defensive sets, separate ws and tp ranges, factoring in even just self SC here, and using realistic mob stats will change things up a bit.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-04 02:55:15
Ran more simulations against apex level mobs with trust level buffs. This means no more free fSTR or dDEX for weapons and Verethragna gains back one of it's advantages here. I did not include Glanzfaust here since without AM3, it's not competitive. Spharai does not utilize AM at all and Verethragna only uses AM1. The increase is almost non-existent for AM3 and in a CP style setup, spamming with AM1 is likely better anyways (for H2H.) I also swapped legs to relic +3 just to be sure accuracy was capped but otherwise kept the DD focused set.
Code
Impetus Down
Spharai: 4063.7 15780.96
Verethragna AM1: 4565.11 18934.42
Godhands: 3426.16 16222.65
Sagitta A: 3386.39 15203.78
Karambit: 3390.2 15345.0
Impetus Up
Spharai: 6090.41 23813.97
Verethragna AM1: 6794.5 28481.52
Godhands: 5086.39 23996.1
Sagitta A: 5104.54 23070.24
Karambit: 5082.52 23114.47
I will get around to more results with hybrid sets, other WS, properly maintaining AM3, and TP values for using other WS such as raging/howling/tornado (particularly for GH) sometime this week.
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 02:57:13
I haven't played or touched my sets in almost a year, I legit wasn't calling you wrong and was just curious if you had a comparable set's dps numbers. Still am, but probably forget about the thread by morning anyway.
I legit asking you about the set, because its hard for me to compare sets without knowing them :D If you cant provide one, I will try to make it up myself.
That really doesn't sell me on using Vereth over Sagitta. You're 2.5% dps down to begin with, but Sagitta still has the option to run d.ring(and/or other hybrid pieces) alongside it and end up way ahead in DT again. The cost argument is certainly a solid point, though, given how close they seem.
This was specific custom target with 1 VIT for Austar. For normal target Sagitta wouldnt be ahead, because you wouldnt cap fSTR and +70STR on Veret would even things out.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-04 03:00:27
This was specific custom target with 1 VIT for Austar I just wanted that to keep things the same instead of trying to guess what values and buffs were used, since everything is maxed. It isn't a result that should be seriously considered for anyone that was wondering.
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 03:05:37
Also the defense edge that Sagitta gives you, can probably be easily achieved by simply using something like Defending ring for both TP and WS and DPS would probably be similar. Just checked in sheet and R15 Godhands vs Sagitta A, with Impetus down and using Howling Fist, Godhands has still slightly higher DPS even when you take off Gere ring completely during TP and WS.
EDIT: For Impetus UP and Victory Smite spam, with R15 Veret you can have empty ring, earring and ammo slots during TP and WS and still come on top of SagittaA. So you could full time Defending ring, Odnowa earring R15 and Staunch (which is much more defensive values than SagittaA offers over other weapons) with VeretR15 and still have higher DPS. What kind of results are you getting? Just for humor, with 1 defense, evasion, vit and agi values.
For that Impetus up? I actually made small mistake not putting bhikku +1 for WS, so on normal enemies its more like break even with empty ring, earring and ammo for TP and empty ring and ammo for WS.
For your specific target tho, its 9465 DPS for SagittaA with full equip and 9243 DPS for VeretR15 with empty ring1, ear1 and ammo for both TP and WS. What about without impetus, but still using victory smite?
For reference I am comparing this for impetus down, again on a target with 1 in all stats, I'm just trying to get a ballpark in case of any bugs: Code def All_Buffs():
ml.All_Capped(casey)
mb.Haste_II(casey)
mb.Honor_March(casey)
mb.Victory_March(casey)
mb.Samurai_Roll(casey)
def TP_Set():
me.sagitta_a(casey)
me.ginsen(casey)
me.adhemar_bonnet_1_b(casey)
me.ken_samue_1(casey)
me.adhemar_wrist_1_b(casey)
me.bhikku_hose_1(casey)
me.anch_gaiters_3(casey)
me.mnk_nodowa_2(casey)
me.moonbow_belt_1(casey)
me.telos_earring(casey)
me.sherida_earring(casey)
me.gere_ring(casey)
me.niqmaddu_ring(casey)
me.segomos_str_da(casey)
All_Buffs()
All_Calculations()
def Victory_Smite_Set():
me.sagitta_a(casey)
me.knobkierrie(casey)
me.adhemar_bonnet_1_b(casey)
me.anch_cyclas_3(casey)
me.adhemar_wrist_1_b(casey)
me.ken_hakama_1(casey)
me.ken_sune_ate_1(casey)
me.mnk_nodowa_2(casey)
me.moonbow_belt_1(casey)
me.telos_earring(casey)
me.sherida_earring(casey)
me.gere_ring(casey)
me.niqmaddu_ring(casey)
me.segomos_str_da(casey)
All_Buffs()
All_Calculations()
I will try to give you numbers later for this specific gear.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-04 03:13:03
I will try to give you numbers later for this specific gear Don't have to, I fixed the issue I was having so I should get similar results now. I just don't like to include oseem gear so WS set is not particularly optimized.
The set Thorny is probably referring to is this one, though:
ItemSet 370211
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 03:41:07
I will try to give you numbers later for this specific gear Don't have to, I fixed the issue I was having so I should get similar results now. I just don't like to include oseem gear so WS set is not particularly optimized.
The set Thorny is probably referring to is this one, though:
ItemSet 370211
In case of this set, I would just switch Chirich to Defending ring, ear to Odnowa R15 and ammo to Expeditious Pinion. Its same DT and Subtle blow. 40 less HP but 30 more DEF. Assuming you would keep Defending ring and Odnowa for WS too, so you can keep HP and DT, this would still be ahead with VeretR15 (Im getting 9031 vs 8800 DPS, assuming bhikku+1 for WS).
 Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10079
By Asura.Sechs 2021-01-04 03:43:00
PDT-10 on cape, swap Kenda+1 for Malignance when you activate Impetus? (and consequentially swap Mali body for Bhikku+1)
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 04:08:01
PDT-10 on cape, swap Kenda+1 for Malignance when you activate Impetus? (and consequentially swap Mali body for Bhikku+1)
You cant just do that, he wanted same DT (DT, not only PDT for some reason), almost same HP and capped SB. You need Kenda for Subtle Blow.
Sagitta set has 51%DT (assuming 5%DT on cape) with capped SB. The benefit of Sagitta is that you can change ammo to Pinion, Chirich to defending Ring and then still keep 51%DT and capped SB with Bhikku body for TP during Impetus. The thing is tho, even with those changes and Bhikku +1 for TP instead of Malignance, VeretR15 is still marginally ahead, while also having superior meva with Malignance body.
 Leviathan.Andret
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2021-01-04 09:06:45
If you have a lot of Store TP and little multi-attack then wouldn't path B a better choice for Sagitta?
Shiva.Thorny
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2772
By Shiva.Thorny 2021-01-04 10:43:27
If you have a lot of Store TP and little multi-attack then wouldn't path B a better choice for Sagitta? Path B increases TP feed by increasing number of swings, if dps difference is comparable path A is preferable. Since augmenting multiple paths is cost-prohibitive to most people, I think the situations where you'd actually want a path B are few enough that path A should be the default.
This was specific custom target with 1 VIT for Austar. For normal target Sagitta wouldnt be ahead, because you wouldnt cap fSTR and +70STR on Veret would even things out. That also assumes that on the higher target, the accuracy from sagitta is totally pointless.
Quote: In case of this set, I would just switch Chirich to Defending ring, ear to Odnowa R15 and ammo to Expeditious Pinion. Its same DT and Subtle blow. 40 less HP but 30 more DEF. Assuming you would keep Defending ring and Odnowa for WS too, so you can keep HP and DT, this would still be ahead with VeretR15 (Im getting 9031 vs 8800 DPS, assuming bhikku+1 for WS). I would think if you're updating that set for vereth, it'd also need to be updated for Sagitta. Odnowa, Expeditious, and Gere Ring seems most likely, which makes the HP difference 150 again and probably closes the dps gap a bit. Are you using capped DT on vereth, or just matching that specific 10%? Is this only under impetus, and assuming sagitta doesn't wear bhikku for tp?
At a glance, should be impetus up:
ItemSet 370212
impetus down:
ItemSet 370211
(though I suppose you could accurately point out there are times you wouldn't want to use bhikku for impetus up because m.eva is a priority and giving up one piece hurts significantly)
Leviathan.Andret
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2021-01-04 11:36:48
If you have a lot of Store TP and little multi-attack then wouldn't path B a better choice for Sagitta? Path B increases TP feed by increasing number of swings, if dps difference is comparable path A is preferable. Since augmenting multiple paths is cost-prohibitive to most people, I think the situations where you'd actually want a path B are few enough that path A should be the default.
Well, my situation is a bit different. I already have God Hands as default.
If I use Sagitta, it means I would probably decking out on DT gear which don't have enough subtle blow. The 25 subtle blow would help a lot.
I'm just not too sure how many extra swings it will give though. The double damage doesn't give extra tp but the +25 store TP on path A does.
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 12:05:17
I would think if you're updating that set for vereth, it'd also need to be updated for Sagitta. Odnowa, Expeditious, and Gere Ring seems most likely, which makes the HP difference 150 again and probably closes the dps gap a bit. Are you using capped DT on vereth, or just matching that specific 10%? Is this only under impetus, and assuming sagitta doesn't wear bhikku for tp?
At a glance, should be impetus up:
ItemSet 370212
impetus down:
ItemSet 370211
(though I suppose you could accurately point out there are times you wouldn't want to use bhikku for impetus up because m.eva is a priority and giving up one piece hurts significantly)
Well yeah, with Veret you cant really match HP of the second set. You can match DT by simply using Defending ring instead of Gere for both TP and WS and then Veret is still 3~4% ahead on DPS. That being said tho, I would consider that 150HP in this set as something MNK wont need in 99% of content and for 1% thats left, I would actually use Sagitta path C since survivability would be a total priority then.
First set I commented before you posted. Veret in same set, but with Malignance body for TP during Impetus has 3% more DPS than SagitaA with Bhikku+1, so in this case Veret has both higher DPS and higher survivability, since I value that MEVA more than that 150HP.
EDIT: One point to consider. I use Samurai roll for all those checks. If you dont have samurai roll DPS advantage of Veret is slightly lower. Keep in mind tho, I try to keep that 10%DT in WS set too. If I would only try to match survivability of TP set, Veret would be more ahead.
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 12:37:51
If we don't care about a few % of DPS anymore, why not just tp in full malig for the meva?
Because full malignance doesn't have subtle blow. That was already explained.
[+]
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-04 13:48:14
Code def All_Buffs():
ml.Apex_Crab(casey)
ml.red_curry_bun(casey)
casey.impetus = True
mb.Haste_II(casey)
mb.Victory_March(casey)
mb.Geo_Frailty(casey)
mb.Geo_Fury(casey)
mb.Chaos_Roll(casey)
mb.Samurai_Roll(casey)
mb.Dia_III(casey)
def TP_Set():
me.sagitta_a(casey)
me.expeditious_pinion(casey)
me.malignance_chapeau(casey)
me.malignance_tabard(casey)
me.malignance_gloves(casey)
me.malignance_tights(casey)
me.ken_sune_ate_1(casey)
me.mnk_nodowa_2(casey)
me.moonbow_belt_1(casey)
me.odnowa_earring_1(casey)
me.sherida_earring(casey)
me.gere_ring(casey)
me.niqmaddu_ring(casey)
me.segomos_str_da(casey)
All_Buffs()
All_Calculations()
def Victory_Smite_Set():
me.sagitta_a(casey)
me.knobkierrie(casey)
me.adhemar_bonnet_1_b(casey)
me.bhikku_cyclas_1(casey)
me.ryuo_tekko_1_a(casey)
me.ken_hakama_1(casey)
me.ken_sune_ate_1(casey)
me.mnk_nodowa_2(casey)
me.moonbow_belt_1(casey)
me.odr_earring(casey)
me.sherida_earring(casey)
me.gere_ring(casey)
me.niqmaddu_ring(casey)
me.segomos_str_da(casey)
All_Buffs()
All_Calculations()
Using this setup, I have about 9500 with Vere. I commented out gere in tp and niqmaddu in ws. Sagitta A gives me about 7700 with both rings available. Why are your Sagitta results so high? If I replace double damage with triple damage on sagitta I get close to your values at 8468.3 35126.35
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 14:34:35
Sagitta A gives me about 7700 with both rings available.
I lowered stp on samurai roll to 60. I switched off Boost-STR and switched to Apex crab (had Apex Eruca before and thats a huge difference in dps because crab in my sheet has 350 vit, while Eruca only 228). With those changes SagittaA with above sets is at 7900 DPS.
But with those changes and without gere for TP and Niq for WS I have Veret at 8456 DPS with 38454 avg Vsmite. So the question now is, why you have Veret so high? Seeing how big DPS jump you get from changing ODD to ODT on SagittaA, Im thinking that maybe you have Veret ODT on whole hand, instead of just one hit of the attack round? EDIT: When I switched ODD to ODT on SagittaA, DPS only jumped to 8142 from 7900.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2021-01-04 15:55:55
not at home but i doubt that’s it. what’s yo ur average impetus count?
By SimonSes 2021-01-04 16:03:00
not at home but i doubt that’s it. what’s yo ur average impetus count?
36
I am very new to mnk and honestly I threw a bunch of Gil at the job to get it ready so I have some gaps. When it comes to remas godhands vs verth is r15 a major game changer for either of thoes weapons performance wise. I under stand the damage is just better at r15, but it’s also my understanding that weapon skills are not where most of mnk damage comes from. Please advise.
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