|
Let's start a riot?!?!
By Prong 2020-06-04 07:05:11
Ok well PM him about it or something. Idk, you can't just make an illogical leap and assume that since someone just MENTIONED the drugs that means they necessarily think, "Welp, had drugs. F 'em."
The discussion wasn't about our personal feelings, it was about how COURTS tend to handle these things and what lawyers can and will use. How defense lawyers FOR the cops MAY use that autopsy info against the prosecution, not that we agreed with it. Whole different thing.
[+]
By Prong 2020-06-04 07:07:43
Still don't see why they took a fake note in that shop and then realised. What happened in the minutes between accepting it and realising it's fake?
Only thing I can think of is this is probably a cashier-level paid person with minimal training on HOW to spot a fake note so maybe they were not 100% certain, may have confirmed with another employee or supervisor, then called police. Forgers are really good these days and honestly, I doubt I'd be able to even spot a fake note.
By Draylo 2020-06-04 07:07:47
Its interesting because I never heard of it prior to him saying that and was curious on the source. You love to read into things to try and make it about your agenda
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2020-06-04 07:09:11
Ok well PM him about it or something. Idk, you can't just make an illogical leap and assume that since someone just MENTIONED the drugs that means they necessarily think, "Welp, had drugs. F 'em."
The discussion wasn't about our personal feelings, it was about how COURTS tend to handle these things and what lawyers can and will use. How defense lawyers FOR the cops MAY use that autopsy info against the prosecution, not that we agreed with it. Whole different thing.
Based off the discussions I've had with certain people (that all tend to share Draylo's exact views) that actually IS what some people outside of the court case are going to believe. It's also a typical police tactic to go over such details. Meanwhile, Chauvin has been involved in multiple on-duty deaths and has I believe 18 complaints against him. Which I imagine will mostly counter any claims about Floyd's health/drug use being the main factors.
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9917
By Asura.Saevel 2020-06-04 07:10:14
That's sufficient to fire them but not enough to convince a jury to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. And don't think for a minute there is gonna be some sort of special exception to the US Constitution made, Voir dire will ensure there is at least one if not more seated jurors who won't convict. If this case was like any other, you would be correct.
Since this is a special case due to the overwhelmingly media coverage and the protests associated with it, the jury will be emotional in these trials, and normal convictions will be thrown out the door.
I expect a *edit* quasi-kangaroo court on all 4 cases.
I HOPE you are right but...after the cop who shot that kid in the hallway of his apt WHILE begging them to not shoot him got off, I still reserve my doubts.
You absolutely do not want a kangaroo court by mob rule. There is a reason the founding fathers wrote the Constitution the way they did. It was designed precisely to protect abuse in situations like this. Due process, fair trial by an impartial jury of their peers, no unreasonable punishments.
That means any defense lawyer worth their cost will get at least jury member if not more who aren't antifa supporters. The defense will then show the officer as just following procedures (the other three). The most the Prosecution can say is "officer X saw Chauvin kneeling on Mr Floyd's neck and did nothing". To which the defense lawyer responds "that is not the crime being charged." Remember this is the USA not Russia or Somalia, the state is required to prove all components of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of six to twelve. ALL members of that jury must vote to convict on the charges presented. If only one member votes acquittal you have a mistrial or even a flat acquittal when the rest get tired of the holdout.
Again there is a reason over 99% of cases involve a plea deal. Getting the defendant to plea guilty to a smaller crime with reduced sentence is infinitely easier then gambling on a trial thats heavily in favor of the defense.
I meant, I hope the other 3 get convicted of SOMETHING, they truly deserve it, not murder 2 but, that moron Ellison trying to be Mr. ToughGuy went with what social media was screaming at him, instead of choosing charges that would logically stick.
I've been looking but so far nothing jumped out as realistic. All a available informantion points to them following standard procedure with handling apprehensions. The worst is that they failed to intervene when Chauvin kneeled on Mr. Floyd's neck. Thats not a crime by itself, they would need to prove conspiracy. Accessory crimes are used when people assist others in committing a crime. That falls flat when the defense argues "they were doing their job and following procedures". The nail in the prosecutions arguement would be that Officer Chauvin kneeling was the cause of Mr Floyd's death, not him being apprehended, put on the ground, or put against the wall.
So far all I've seen is people arguing guilt by association. "Officer Chauvin killed Mr. Floyd and those other pigs were there with him so they are just as criminally responsible."
Personally I think they were boneheaded morons for letting the dumbshit Chauvin kneel on Mr. Floyd's neck. Their punishment was removal from the force. The question is did they commit a crime, not if hurting them makes others feel better.
Well they do have Good Samaritan laws in some states which does in fact make a negative event (such as simply not helping when able) a crime...I don't know about Minnesota but you'd think at bare minimum it would be an expectation of police officers.
Your most certainly correct that better is expected of a police officer and they should be held accountable for such failure in their duties, which is why they got dismissed from the police force.
Law in the USA is about what you can prove not what makes people feel better. Prosecutors take the lawfully gathered evidence provided by the police, then find which law would be applicable and attempt to prove every and every point of that charge to a jury where every member must agree. The "crime" of the other officers is "Failure to stop Officer Chauvin from accidentally killing Mr Floyd". I use the word "accidentally" because that is what is going to be argued in court as intent in virtually impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, without self incrimination. Their other "Crime" is being white police officers, although two of them aren't white.
By Prong 2020-06-04 07:13:50
There's even a mini torch thing others have.
Well the issue here, too, is not all the old currency without all the new markings/effects has been taken out of circulation, so even though the new notes have plenty of specific things that supposedly cannot be duplicated by counterfeiters (yet), there still are plenty of old notes out there that pass as legit currency.
Leviathan.Draugo
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-06-04 07:55:43
That's sufficient to fire them but not enough to convince a jury to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. And don't think for a minute there is gonna be some sort of special exception to the US Constitution made, Voir dire will ensure there is at least one if not more seated jurors who won't convict. If this case was like any other, you would be correct.
Since this is a special case due to the overwhelmingly media coverage and the protests associated with it, the jury will be emotional in these trials, and normal convictions will be thrown out the door.
I expect a *edit* quasi-kangaroo court on all 4 cases.
I HOPE you are right but...after the cop who shot that kid in the hallway of his apt WHILE begging them to not shoot him got off, I still reserve my doubts.
You absolutely do not want a kangaroo court by mob rule. There is a reason the founding fathers wrote the Constitution the way they did. It was designed precisely to protect abuse in situations like this. Due process, fair trial by an impartial jury of their peers, no unreasonable punishments.
That means any defense lawyer worth their cost will get at least jury member if not more who aren't antifa supporters. The defense will then show the officer as just following procedures (the other three). The most the Prosecution can say is "officer X saw Chauvin kneeling on Mr Floyd's neck and did nothing". To which the defense lawyer responds "that is not the crime being charged." Remember this is the USA not Russia or Somalia, the state is required to prove all components of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of six to twelve. ALL members of that jury must vote to convict on the charges presented. If only one member votes acquittal you have a mistrial or even a flat acquittal when the rest get tired of the holdout.
Again there is a reason over 99% of cases involve a plea deal. Getting the defendant to plea guilty to a smaller crime with reduced sentence is infinitely easier then gambling on a trial thats heavily in favor of the defense.
I meant, I hope the other 3 get convicted of SOMETHING, they truly deserve it, not murder 2 but, that moron Ellison trying to be Mr. ToughGuy went with what social media was screaming at him, instead of choosing charges that would logically stick.
I've been looking but so far nothing jumped out as realistic. All a available informantion points to them following standard procedure with handling apprehensions. The worst is that they failed to intervene when Chauvin kneeled on Mr. Floyd's neck. Thats not a crime by itself, they would need to prove conspiracy. Accessory crimes are used when people assist others in committing a crime. That falls flat when the defense argues "they were doing their job and following procedures". The nail in the prosecutions arguement would be that Officer Chauvin kneeling was the cause of Mr Floyd's death, not him being apprehended, put on the ground, or put against the wall.
So far all I've seen is people arguing guilt by association. "Officer Chauvin killed Mr. Floyd and those other pigs were there with him so they are just as criminally responsible."
Personally I think they were boneheaded morons for letting the dumbshit Chauvin kneel on Mr. Floyd's neck. Their punishment was removal from the force. The question is did they commit a crime, not if hurting them makes others feel better.
Well they do have Good Samaritan laws in some states which does in fact make a negative event (such as simply not helping when able) a crime...I don't know about Minnesota but you'd think at bare minimum it would be an expectation of police officers.
Your most certainly correct that better is expected of a police officer and they should be held accountable for such failure in their duties, which is why they got dismissed from the police force.
Law in the USA is about what you can prove not what makes people feel better. Prosecutors take the lawfully gathered evidence provided by the police, then find which law would be applicable and attempt to prove every and every point of that charge to a jury where every member must agree. The "crime" of the other officers is "Failure to stop Officer Chauvin from accidentally killing Mr Floyd". I use the word "accidentally" because that is what is going to be argued in court as intent in virtually impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, without self incrimination. Their other "Crime" is being white police officers, although two of them aren't white.
Good Samaritan laws are the exact opposite of what was quoted.
They are so that a good Samaritan doesn't get sued by a victim or their family if the Samaritan was trying to help someone, but accidentally made an injury, or death worse.
Believe it or not, people would sue other people for attempting to help total strangers and it still ending tragically.
[+]
By Prong 2020-06-04 08:03:05
That's sufficient to fire them but not enough to convince a jury to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. And don't think for a minute there is gonna be some sort of special exception to the US Constitution made, Voir dire will ensure there is at least one if not more seated jurors who won't convict. If this case was like any other, you would be correct.
Since this is a special case due to the overwhelmingly media coverage and the protests associated with it, the jury will be emotional in these trials, and normal convictions will be thrown out the door.
I expect a *edit* quasi-kangaroo court on all 4 cases.
I HOPE you are right but...after the cop who shot that kid in the hallway of his apt WHILE begging them to not shoot him got off, I still reserve my doubts.
You absolutely do not want a kangaroo court by mob rule. There is a reason the founding fathers wrote the Constitution the way they did. It was designed precisely to protect abuse in situations like this. Due process, fair trial by an impartial jury of their peers, no unreasonable punishments.
That means any defense lawyer worth their cost will get at least jury member if not more who aren't antifa supporters. The defense will then show the officer as just following procedures (the other three). The most the Prosecution can say is "officer X saw Chauvin kneeling on Mr Floyd's neck and did nothing". To which the defense lawyer responds "that is not the crime being charged." Remember this is the USA not Russia or Somalia, the state is required to prove all components of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of six to twelve. ALL members of that jury must vote to convict on the charges presented. If only one member votes acquittal you have a mistrial or even a flat acquittal when the rest get tired of the holdout.
Again there is a reason over 99% of cases involve a plea deal. Getting the defendant to plea guilty to a smaller crime with reduced sentence is infinitely easier then gambling on a trial thats heavily in favor of the defense.
I meant, I hope the other 3 get convicted of SOMETHING, they truly deserve it, not murder 2 but, that moron Ellison trying to be Mr. ToughGuy went with what social media was screaming at him, instead of choosing charges that would logically stick.
I've been looking but so far nothing jumped out as realistic. All a available informantion points to them following standard procedure with handling apprehensions. The worst is that they failed to intervene when Chauvin kneeled on Mr. Floyd's neck. Thats not a crime by itself, they would need to prove conspiracy. Accessory crimes are used when people assist others in committing a crime. That falls flat when the defense argues "they were doing their job and following procedures". The nail in the prosecutions arguement would be that Officer Chauvin kneeling was the cause of Mr Floyd's death, not him being apprehended, put on the ground, or put against the wall.
So far all I've seen is people arguing guilt by association. "Officer Chauvin killed Mr. Floyd and those other pigs were there with him so they are just as criminally responsible."
Personally I think they were boneheaded morons for letting the dumbshit Chauvin kneel on Mr. Floyd's neck. Their punishment was removal from the force. The question is did they commit a crime, not if hurting them makes others feel better.
Well they do have Good Samaritan laws in some states which does in fact make a negative event (such as simply not helping when able) a crime...I don't know about Minnesota but you'd think at bare minimum it would be an expectation of police officers.
Your most certainly correct that better is expected of a police officer and they should be held accountable for such failure in their duties, which is why they got dismissed from the police force.
Law in the USA is about what you can prove not what makes people feel better. Prosecutors take the lawfully gathered evidence provided by the police, then find which law would be applicable and attempt to prove every and every point of that charge to a jury where every member must agree. The "crime" of the other officers is "Failure to stop Officer Chauvin from accidentally killing Mr Floyd". I use the word "accidentally" because that is what is going to be argued in court as intent in virtually impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, without self incrimination. Their other "Crime" is being white police officers, although two of them aren't white.
Good Samaritan laws are the exact opposite of what was quoted.
They are so that a good Samaritan doesn't get sued by a victim or their family if the Samaritan was trying to help someone, but accidentally made an injury, or death worse.
Believe it or not, people would sue other people for attempting to help total strangers and it still ending tragically.
Ah, that's right. I forgot about that. They are to protect people when being, "Good Samaritans."
For some reason and I don't know why, I was for sure there was some discussion a couple years back about certain states adopting laws that require people who are able to help others in life or death type situations, but I don't know my mind may just be making it up.
IIRC, there was a situation where a guy witnesses some teens who rolled their car and it set ablaze and instead of helping them get out, he sat across the road in his car and video taped it. He was arrested and charged with something like "gross indifference" or something and I thought that spurred on the laws I was thinking of.
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2020-06-04 08:12:38
Sooooooo........... yeah...........
Quote: BREAKING: @Project_Veritas
infiltrated the violent group #ANTIFA and will show our undercover footage to the world tomorrow.
[+]
By volkom 2020-06-04 08:16:11
How many people were gunned down last night by the military?
[+]
Leviathan.Draugo
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-06-04 08:22:11
How many people were gunned down last night by the military? What what what?
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2020-06-04 08:27:17
Gaslighting.
See the military isn't killing americans you're all over reacting, nothing to see here.
(yet)
Cerberus.Hideka
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 742
By Cerberus.Hideka 2020-06-04 08:34:40
That is a well thought out response, I honestly had no idea he was a prior criminal and was intoxicated during all this. The media made it out like he was an average citizen that found the wrong cops. Where did you find this information as I'm curious to look at it.
several places, and the actual report itself. here is a NPR segment on the preliminary findings on the autopsy
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
Quote: The autopsy report concludes the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." That conclusion, death due to heart failure, differs from the one reached by an independent examiner hired by the Floyd family, which listed the cause of death as "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."
The medical examiner's report does not mention asphyxiation. Preliminary results from that report were released publicly on Monday. According to prosecutors, who filed charging documents last week, the results "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation."
The medical examiner's report also details blunt-force injuries to the skin of Floyd's head, face and upper lip, as well as the shoulders, hands and elbows and bruising of the wrists consistent with handcuffs.
as for his criminal background - you wont find any news outlets talking about it. hes a repeat violent offending felon. the police chief who mentioned this was basically deleted from the internet. (i can get you a copy of the arrest report if i try hard enough im sure).
i did more digging today and found out that my suspicions are correct: the minneapolis PD DOES allow for neck restraints in the case of an active resistor. They actually called for a code 3 ambulance - a code 3 being an urgent ambulance request - BEFORE he went unresponsive. I also found that the initial 911 call stated that the man was uncontrollably drunk, stumbling and slurring his speech as per the person who called the cops. this goes in line with his fentanyl use.... given everything in my previous post, and a lawyer worth their salt: Unless these cops are given an unfair trial - they're going to walk and the country needs to be ready for this.
[+]
By volkom 2020-06-04 08:40:40
If the cops walk, expect more riots. If he goes to jail expect riots. They want all 4 cops in jail. Dont forget the cop that was guarding Floyd's car. Hes just as guilty. Get him too
[+]
By Prong 2020-06-04 08:44:38
If the cops walk, expect more riots. If he goes to jail expect riots. They want all 4 cops in jail. Dont forget the cop that was guarding Floyd's car. Hes just as guilty. Get him too
They want them all hung, not in jail, that's the problem. When people think with their emotions they can't think logically, that is why I said putting Ellison as the prosecuting attorney was real dumb. All that guy cares about is the cameras. He already charged the 3 other cops with something they can't be convicted of unless the jury basically ignores the Constitution.
By RadialArcana 2020-06-04 08:53:10
I'm still waiting for the realization to set in with people on the left at what they are doing, at that point they will say it's Trump supporters and Russia who were causing the riots.
Waiting on it.
[+]
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2020-06-04 08:59:15
Ladyofhonor is literally arguing with me over that on BG. He says we need more bodies to hit the floor and hes willing to support as many deaths as it takes to force and bully the government in making incredibly sweeping changes (coming from a white guy safe in his home away from the rioting.) He is completely delusional and backed up by far left crazies. It doesn't matter if youre sick of violence, he says its necessary and you should be more sick of cops even though they aren't the immediate threat at this current moment.
The views of one psychopath don't bother me. It's when those views become mainstream that we have a problem. Unfortunately we're heading in that direction, but fortunately most radicals don't have the cajones to follow through with their threats. Life's too comfy for keyboard warrior scumbags. The same people who didn't care when far right views became acceptable and mainstream in America and saw no problem now see this as a problem.
Who'd have thought it.
Mind specifying who these "people" are that you're referring to?
[+]
Cerberus.Hideka
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 742
By Cerberus.Hideka 2020-06-04 09:02:03
If the cops walk, expect more riots. If he goes to jail expect riots. They want all 4 cops in jail. Dont forget the cop that was guarding Floyd's car. Hes just as guilty. Get him too
my thoughts on the rioting unfortunately are not nice. you NEVER acquiesce to violence - you cannot condone violence. Look at this situation rationally: its like dealing with children - if a child pitches a fit over not having their way, and then you give in and let them have their way, the child now knows , that you're a punk *** ***, and all he has to do is pitch a fit to get whatever he wants.
Think im being hyperbolic? This is the exact mentality we employ with terrorist hostage takers. We dont give into them trying to employ violence for nefarious means - we literally just drop a seal team up their *** and kill everyone involved- and the vast majority of time, rescue the hostage in the process.
you cannot placate rioters - end of story.
people blaming trump for not deploying the military to stop these rioters: Shame on you. he has no power to use military force in the provenance of a state without the expressed permission of that states governor due to posse comitatus. if we had a more rational house, i'd be ok with him saying *** the law in that regard and doing it anyway - it wouldnt be the first time a president has had to sideline law for order; but if he were to do it, he'd be impeached for sure, or bought up on criminal charges should he lose the election in the fall.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 140
By Sylph.Seidell 2020-06-04 09:10:13
BLAME CANADA!
YouTube Video Placeholder
Leviathan.Draugo
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-06-04 09:13:15
If the cops walk, expect more riots. If he goes to jail expect riots. They want all 4 cops in jail. Dont forget the cop that was guarding Floyd's car. Hes just as guilty. Get him too
They want them all hung, not in jail, that's the problem. When people think with their emotions they can't think logically, that is why I said putting Ellison as the prosecuting attorney was real dumb. All that guy cares about is the cameras. He already charged the 3 other cops with something they can't be convicted of unless the jury basically ignores the Constitution. You would be surprised, maybe, at how little people know what's in the constitution. So, lawyers absolutely love an ignorant juror. The judge should prevent unconstitutional jury choices, but that's only if the judge chooses to be fair. Once the decision is reached, you are now stuck having to appeal and then you are really scrambled up in the ***.
Leviathan.Draugo
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-06-04 09:14:11
BLAME CANADA!
YouTube Video Placeholder We need to do this more often, goddamn syrup suckers! (It's a joke)
[+]
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-06-04 09:26:00
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »If the police didn't do their ***, the rioters wouldn't be out... So, I guess the looters were out protesting police brutality during Hurricane Katrina/Rita then, right?
Or nearly every major tornado incident in a large city, right?
We had a T1 F1 tornado land in San Antonio not too long ago. Want to take a guess at what the looters were "protesting" about then? Hint: Floyd was still alive at the time.
Edit: Classification issue with Tornado systems.
[+]
Cerberus.Hideka
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 742
By Cerberus.Hideka 2020-06-04 09:33:01
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »If the police didn't do their ***, the rioters wouldn't be out... So, I guess the looters were out protesting police brutality during Hurricane Katrina/Rita then, right?
Or nearly every major tornado incident in a large city, right?
We had a T1 tornado land in San Antonio not too long ago. Want to take a guess at what the looters were "protesting" about then? Hint: Floyd was still alive at the time.
Disgusting, reproachful, shameful opportunistic *** will always exist. they do not care about the issue, they just want ***to burn and for everyone to be as miserable as they are.
By Voren 2020-06-04 09:43:04
We had a T1 tornado land in San Antonio not too long ago.
WTH is a T1 tornado, is it the Schwarzenegger version, and if so, will the T2 shift from a tornado into an earthquake, maybe even a blizzard just for shiggles?
Our protest yesterday had three officers present, two were brass, and a PIO, no riots, no looting, barely some raised voices. The force remained inside watching, but never showed a presence.
Some times the best option to deal with rioters is to not give them a reason to riot.
[+]
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-06-04 09:53:07
WTH is a T1 tornado, is it the Schwarzenegger version, and if so, will the T2 shift from a tornado into an earthquake, maybe even a blizzard just for shiggles? Sorry, mistake on the classification system. Tornadoes are so rare in South Texas that I don't have the classification system memorized.
Corrected the original post.
By volkom 2020-06-04 09:53:44
WTH is a T1 tornado, is it the Schwarzenegger version, and if so, will the T2 shift from a tornado into an earthquake, maybe even a blizzard just for shiggles?
T1 = EF 1
example of an F5/ EF 5 Tornado
YouTube Video Placeholder
[+]
So yea been out of the loop, has the rebellion began?
Is sublime gonna make a 2020 edition? What cities are popping off? What was the "last straw"?
Stay tuned for more excitement in 2020....
Edit: diverting the latest corona shenanigans from random thoughts.
|
|