Let's Start A Riot?!?!

Ah yes so you did read it on Twitter.

Ah yes, me and my legendary skills at reading a first handV I D E O of the incident.

(Starts in something like 5 minutes)
Live: Senate reviews police use of force

Senate Judiciary Committee holds hearing on "Police Use of Force and Community Relations." St. Paul, Minnesota Mayor Melvin Carter will testify along with law enforcement leaders, attorneys and university professors.

To be fair, I don't call the cops, most people in my area don't either, if you get my meaning.

this is a great video. love hearing these two talk.

tatum's always a good listen. generally conservative but has a pretty solid view on matters involving law enforcement.

pretty good speech, and his executive order looks to be a good step in the right direction at the federal level.

What is the summary?

it still hasnt been published, but ive seen the draft copy floating around - once the real one gets published itll go up here if you were ever curious as to what the orders he issues are:

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders/donald-trump/2020

TL/DR of the last few days before this address and order: He sat down with cops, and people who had family members killed by cops, of all races, and took feedback and information from all of them collectively. he commiserated with their plights, and asked them what they would do if they had his position and power to fix this. he took that feedback and returned with this order/speech.

broadly the order does this

1. Provides federal incentive for police officers seeking higher training for saftey, de-escalation, etc etc.
2. Provides a federally controlled database of ALL police complaints, offenses, the results of those complaints, and origin of those complaints (E.G. Citizen/pd/fed/oversight - not the persons names).
3. In trumps own words: "As part of this new credentialing process, chokeholds will be banned except if an officer's life is at risk," Mr Trump said. "Everybody said it's time, we have to do it."
4. federally funded Research in to more 'less lethal' options like tasers and rubber bullets
5. Federally funded research into more 'non lethal' options.
6. federally funded police-community outreach programs to bring people into closer proximity to off duty cops
7. research into if potentially training a brand of 'field officer social worker' that would recieve police training, self defense training, and be held to specific physical fitness guidelines, but be unarmed,and accompanied by an armed police officer.

overall he was fairly kind and reticent for being trump; he applied a soft, yet firm approach to the situation, agreeing that there is an issue, but ultimately disagreeing that the system is racist, or that cops as a whole are racist - Which i feel is absolutely the correct stance to have.

It's steps in the right direction. I've got some quibbles, and still think the only thing that's really going to change anything is the removal of QI, but if we can't acknowledge positive steps we've lost the thread entirely.

If Obama had signed an executive order like that the republicans would have been all torches and pitchforks.

i have to disagree on removing that protection. mostly because there is a MASSIVE confusion over what qualified immunity actually is. people think its just blanket liscense to commit crimes- but its not. its not even close.

What QI does, is prevents civil suits being bought against police officers for dispensation of duty. E.G. if a cop takes someone down, and breaks their arm in the process of taking them down, QI prevents that person from suing the officer personally for damages, UNLESS that cop violated the law in some way in the course of that action. So for example - if a cop just comes up and drops a suplex on your ***, and paralyzes you- you can sue the living piss out of him even with QI existing.

the law itself exists to shield officers from having to defend against frivolous lawsuits and legal harassment for a legitimate arrest ex post facto.

it would be like that guy who sues his doctor forty five times because he didnt get his penis enhancement surgery to just the right girth.

The law as written isn't completely awful; it's how the courts have interpreted it that is the real problem. At this point it's not repairable, and needs entirely rewritten. Something else can go up in its place if it has to, but the existing implementation of QI is terrible.

as long as there is a law that completely and totally shields officers from frivolous lawsuits, or lawsuits that came as a result of the officer or police department enforcing the law in accordance with the law, then im on board with however we want to re-frame it. what we dont want, is a police force paralyzed by people being able to sue them for any old reason. "BUT YOUR HONOR, EVEN THO MY SON WAS POINTING HIS GUN AT THE COPS, HE WAS A GOOD BOY, AND THIS OFFICER WAS A RAYCIS" - "Judgement in the ammount of 1 million to the plaintiff; pay up officer".

if you stripped this law away - cops would literally need malpractice insurance, and would need wages in the absolutely ABSURD level to pay for it. no PD could afford it.

ah ***. sorry. but thats simply not true. the fact is, obama DID issue an executive order in the same nature and spirit. obama established a police taskforce to determine what actions we should take, and another that kneecaped law enforcement's ability to get access to federal level equipment, and curtailed its usage following extensive training.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2014/12/23/2014-30195/establishment-of-the-presidents-task-force-on-21st-century-policing

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2015/01/22/2015-01255/federal-support-for-local-law-enforcement-equipment-acquisition

the fact is, obama SHOULD have gone as hard as trump did. all obama did was form a pannel, and then say 'well the kind of guns are obviously the problem' a few months later.

So some more news on the Newmexico shooting:

It looks like the new mexico militia, and the guy who shot the kid swinging a skateboard at his skull, were not affiliated in the slightest despite the mayor publicly saying they were.

Apparently video footage shows that the militiamen gave up and left before all of this happened, but came to his defense after the shooting occurred to keep anyone else from going after him.

lol, gone as hard as Trump? Trump did nothing. Obama limited the use of the 1033 program, preventing officers from obtaining grenade launchers, bayonets, and airplanes. This didn't "kneecap" the police at all. Most of the 1033 program is used for office equipment anyways. What did Trump do? Reversed those Obama EOs and allowed the cops to obtain grenade launchers and bayonets if they wanted, which they didn't, so Trump's action amounted to nothing.

Fast forward to yesterday's EO, oh, Trump did nothing again. He has been sitting out the push for police reform and this EO further proves he isn't interested. QI needs serious reform, its been abused, and it needs changes. Trump isn't interested, and it would appear the Senate Republicans aren't either, as they didn't include it in their DOA bill.

interesting definition of nothing you have there.

I guess you aren't aware that riot police regularly use grenade launchers for deploying tear gas, pepper gas, beanbags, sponge rounds, flashbang rounds and other riot deterrents correct? that Swat has the additional use of concussion grenades on top of those options as well; but not for actual fragmentation grenades right?

Also when was the last time you saw a cop using a bayonet?

please - in detail - tell me how trumps EO does nothing?

Yes, I am completely aware of those things, way to not make a point lol. You clearly aren't aware that the police havent used the 1033 program to obtain grenade launchers since 1999. You probably aren't even aware of what the 1033 program does, considering you falsely accused Obama of "kneecapping" the police.

Trump didn't do anything for police reform, he didn't address QI, he prevented the Senate from addressing QI, when QI is one of the biggest problems. "Money for research" is political speak for nothing. He didn't address no knock warrants, he gave the cops the same old excuse to continue using chokeholds, I mean we have heard for years "I feared for my life so I killed him."

Your rush to praise an EO that didn't amount to any actual change is amusing, but Trump was never going to do anything substantial, no one expected anything, and no one was surprised when he ducked the biggest issues. The pressure was always on Congress to deliver. Trump just wanted to look as if he was involved when in reality he just wants this issue to go away. I mean yesterday during his photo op he said the biggest social issue of the year, of the decade, is school choice. I can't think of a less important issue in 2020 than school choice.

Existing implementation of QI makes is so that Officers are invulnerable to mere civilians. An Officer can take a random person off the street, knock them down, kick them, handcuff them, kick them some more, then charge them for "resisting arrest", and there is absolutely jack *** the victim can do about it within the legal system. The absolute best is file a complaint, that will be tossed in the trash can as we have seen with recent Police Murders. The only people who could do anything about it (Police Chief / DA / other Officers), have a huge incentive to ignore it entirely and do nothing. If a fresh young DA, who isn't on board with the system, decides that something should be done, they are told to *** Off and if they persist are put in charge of a file cabinet or pressured to quit.

Now outside the legal system, the victim could be captured on Camera with the Perpetrator (the Officer) assaulting them and then have that video put online for the whole world to see. The Police Chief would still insist the felony assault was "justified", until the populace start rioting and burning police buildings down. Then the Police Chief resigns and the DA, who smells the incoming ***storm, starts overcharging every Police Officer they can.

This is demonstrably false. if an officer assaults you, outside of the course of performing an arrest, you can ABSOLUTELY sue them. QI does not protect them if they broke the law.

if your issue, is that police are given more weight to their accounting then there's nothing we can do about that. A criminal has motive to lie- be the criminal the officer or the citizen. do you have any idea how many, for example, women cry rape or indecent action against a male officer during an arrest? they account for nearly half of all complaints.

the answer to this is clearly, more body cameras, and the inability to charge the suspect with any resistance or assult towards the officer if the bodycamera is off. that any police officer NOT running his camera outside of the two protected instances (bathroom and private calls), is issued administrative action, progressively harsher in scale up to termination.

A good legal analysis on the numerous special protections Police Officers receive, and this isn't about QI.

https://columbialawreview.org/content/police-suspects/

Police Officer contracts, enforced by the Union, make it all but impossible to question a Police Officer suspected of wrongdoing. Normally when a mere civilian is brought in, all sorts of shady and borderline unconstitutional tactics are used to try to get them to say something that could be twisted and used against them. Police Officers, knowing these tactics and how effective they are, have codified protections against being subjected to them.

This just goes to show how it very much is a "Us vs Them" mentality within Police Departments across the nation.

I've already said my piece on QI and why it cant just be stripped away. Also because laws dont work this way - trump cant just delete QI. Thats on the House and senate.

Also im sorry, im still waiting for you to specifically tell me how this is him doing nothing?

1. Incentivizing police training in de-escalation, and non-lethal force
2. establishing a cop crime database that is accessible to the public
3. making choke holds a FEDERAL CRIME, with the exception of life or death situations (clearly tho he cant make it a crime because thats not how legislation works).
4. Funding better technology research
5. Finding out if sending socialworkers can actually work for reducing mentally ill cop deaths before we just willy nilly send morbidly obese/out of shape/female/elderly social workers out to try and resolve a situation where an insane person has a gun.
6. funding community outreach to try and breakdown the very real issue of big city policing, that cops dont know their areas well enough to know who is who.


so far all ive heard from you is 'orange man bad'. i cant help but feel you dont actually know how the legislative process works if you expected him to do more than this.

Tell that to the 17 complaints Officer Chauvin has on this record. Those are just the ones on the record, not including all the ones that were tossed in the trash can.

You could try to sue them, it would get tossed out as the Police Chief found nothing wrong and that the whole thing was "justified". The Officer kicking you was "in line with department tactics for dealing with those resisting arrest". The alleged felony assault was done while the Police Officer was on duty and thus subject to Qualified Immunity.

Sorry but you don't get to *** your way out. The Police have surrounded themselves with an invulnerable fortress of bureaucracy and policy. Only the District Attorney can penetrate that fortress and they won't do that, unless there is a full scale riot happening outside.

All this talk of serious reform isn't new, it's been going on for decades. Those in power didn't take it seriously until very recently because there wasn't any mass riots making them afraid for their jobs. Those riots are happening because the Police refused to follow the law and instead shielded themselves from it while acting with impunity. If the Police didn't have that invulnerable fortress of bureaucracy to hide inside, then they wouldn't go around assaulting civilians.

Tear that Fortress down and force them to face the same consequences their victims civilians do. It's the fastest way to enact a cultural change, other then summarily dissolving all the Police Departments, and reforming them with previous Officers being barred from entry.

All you have done is create a false narrative and attacked it. No one is advocating for the outright elimination of QI, so you haven't said anything. It needs to be completely overhauled. That does not mean abolished. Trump and the GOP are ducking it completely.

everything a police officer does to you in the course of arresting an active resistor, is quite literally felony assault. do you not see that gigantic gaping flaw in your logic? you are intentionally conflating a complaint, which anyone can lodge, with zero evidence, with actual instances of crime. literally the very first thing i would do to a cop arresting me, even if he did everything right, is lodge a complaint. thats because id rather do whatever it took to avoid penalty under the law. this is also why the overwhelming majoirty of complaints are thrown out - because they are meritless.

your entire stance assumes that people are not natural born liars and decievers, and that only cops can lie and decieve. you can literally NEVER hold a cop to the same standard a civilian is held to, because the state has sanctioned that crime against you. they have allowed it. they have to allow it, or else the law cannot be enforced. we are getting to the very core precepts of how law and order works. If you violate someones rights, your rights get violated. this is how it has always worked.

your idea of 'bombard the police with endless civil lawsuits' is no better than delete the police. its a non-starter. its literally completely devoid of logic and reason, and completely untenable as a solution. it will literally result in the deletion of the police. you literally cannot have a functional police force if you are allowing civilian cases against police officers who are enacting law enforcement in line with the states codified and sanctioned guidelines.

I absolutely am.

Let them get their "malpractice" insurance through the union. See how long they put up with bad apples when they're footing the bill for them.

ok, Rooks is advocating for the complete elimination of QI.

because it cant be overhauled. the only options are deletion or its continuance. its literally impossible to overhaul it because of what it does. it already provides every single exception that it needs to provide for. you quite literally cant do anything more to QI without it being outright deleted.

at its absolute simplest: You cant sue a cop for enforcing the law in civil court, unless there is proof he did something illegal in the course of enforcing the law.

Literally what other exceptions could you add to that?

Well you can sue him if you really really really feel he did something wrong? Well you can sue him if he hit you too hard while he was trying to arrest you after you fought back against his arrest?

No. Its there to protect cops from being legally harassed for doing their job.

it is this simple: if you want QI overhaul, you want QI removal. there is no such thing as QI overhaul.