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Random Politics & Religion #14
サーバ: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 14:27:04
I think if we keep going we will start break some forum rule, so I'm going to stop with this: Actually, this is the most civil conversation we had on this forum. If not the most civil, one of the most civil.
It truly is hard to determine what is a "living wage" but my assumption is you can pull out a yearly salary based on the average bottom-line living. Which includes minimum food, shelter, healthcare and transportation. I can assure you that 15k a year is not the number for that, but maybe 31k isn't the number for that either. The problem with that is: How can we enforce it? Just as we have to force businesses to pay that, we also have to force people to live with the, what the government considers to be minimal necessaries to life.
In reality, what you are asking for is full-blown Socialism.
It is something that we should strive for though and not constantly argue against, if you are arguing against a living wage then you are essentially arguing against the right to live for anyone in the work force. That is absolutely not true. The thing about what dictates a living wage is the "fairness" of how a person should be paid. You can't say that a cashier at a grocery chain should earn the same amount as a lawyer practicing law. Those are two different jobs, and should be treated as such, but the "living wage" advocates don't see it as that.
Then again, they advocate Socialism, which in of itself something completely different and will never achieve it's purpose, mainly because we are all human.
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サーバ: Asura
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 14:28:45
We will just have to agree to disagree and KN will have to accept that. I understand how you "open-minded people" want to shut out all divisive opinions others may have, but it's not going to help at all if you keep ignoring other people....
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Asura.Saevel
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Posts: 9916
By Asura.Saevel 2016-11-23 14:42:19
In reality, what you are asking for is full-blown Socialism.
That's what they've all been advocating. It's funny cause the concept of a "living wage" really depends on what exactly someone defines as expenses. They throw in "healthcare" but those expenses dramatically differ based on the individual and their "needs". Also the CoL in the USA varies so wildly between area's that a natural level is functionally impossible. The "living wage" of San Francisco is so extremely different from some rural town that they might as well be different countries. It would be like trying to force Egypt to have the same minimum wage as Sweden and expect Egypt's economy to not implode.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-11-23 14:50:29
In reality, what you are asking for is full-blown Socialism.
That's what they've all been advocating. It's funny cause the concept of a "living wage" really depends on what exactly someone defines as expenses. They throw in "healthcare" but those expenses dramatically differ based on the individual and their "needs". Also the CoL in the USA varies so wildly between area's that a natural level is functionally impossible. The "living wage" of San Francisco is so extremely different from some rural town that they might as well be different countries. It would be like trying to force Egypt to have the same minimum wage as Sweden and expect Egypt's economy to not implode.
So that's your shtick. You just reword and expound upon what someone on the other side of the argument already indicated would be the major variable to address. To add the twist, you pretend that the opposing side is completely ignorant of the matter and pontificate like no one already read it in a one line summary.
I'm not necessarily fighting for it either, but I see and understand its benefits. $15/hr isn't what I would be fighting for anyway but rather a living wage - Which vastly differs from area to area.
That or you just actually don't read what people post.
You'd guys be surprised how much of the people you belittle because they don't agree with your tone and points actually read what you write.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 14:53:46
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »We will just have to agree to disagree and KN will have to accept that. I understand how you "open-minded people" want to shut out all divisive opinions others may have, but it's not going to help at all if you keep ignoring other people.... I understand how your arrogance doesn't let you let an issue go whether you're right or wrong, but it's detrimental to your cause and it's not going to help you be more open minded. I'm not the one claiming to be "open minded," although one doesn't have to keep making such claim if they really are.
I'm just pointing out the irony of those who claim to be open minded, but dismiss ideas outside their realm of thought.
At least I'm trying to have a conversation with 2 people who are obviously against whatever viewpoints I have. If I wanted to stop the discussion, I would not reply to your current points.
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サーバ: Bismarck
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Posts: 33979
By Bismarck.Dracondria 2016-11-23 14:55:26
Jokes on you, we don't have that
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 14:57:58
In reality, what you are asking for is full-blown Socialism.
That's what they've all been advocating. It's funny cause the concept of a "living wage" really depends on what exactly someone defines as expenses. They throw in "healthcare" but those expenses dramatically differ based on the individual and their "needs". Also the CoL in the USA varies so wildly between area's that a natural level is functionally impossible. The "living wage" of San Francisco is so extremely different from some rural town that they might as well be different countries. It would be like trying to force Egypt to have the same minimum wage as Sweden and expect Egypt's economy to not implode. There's also the question as what is considered a "necessary."
To a person in San Francisco, they may not need a vehicle to go to work and back every day, whereas somebody in San Antonio would.
Then you have the additional expenses such as TV, cable, phone, internet, and so on/so forth. Are any of them necessary? Who's to say how a person should live?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 14:59:36
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »Minimum wage should be dictated based on location and the cost of living
It already is.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 15:06:30
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »We will just have to agree to disagree and KN will have to accept that. I understand how you "open-minded people" want to shut out all divisive opinions others may have, but it's not going to help at all if you keep ignoring other people.... I understand how your arrogance doesn't let you let an issue go whether you're right or wrong, but it's detrimental to your cause and it's not going to help you be more open minded. I'm not the one claiming to be "open minded," although one doesn't have to keep making such claim if they really are.
I'm just pointing out the irony of those who claim to be open minded, but dismiss ideas outside their realm of thought.
At least I'm trying to have a conversation with 2 people who are obviously against whatever viewpoints I have. If I wanted to stop the discussion, I would not reply to your current points. Are you saying you think eliroo wanted to stop his dialogue with you because he wanted to silence your opinion? Because I think you're mistaken if so. I think if we keep going we will start break some forum rule, so I'm going to stop with this:
...
Let's leave it at though, We need fonewear to come and post some simpson memes or something. His words, not mine.
By fonewear 2016-11-23 15:10:26
I got some therapy for everyone:
YouTube Video Placeholder
Lakshmi.Zerowone
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-11-23 15:10:38
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »We will just have to agree to disagree and KN will have to accept that. I understand how you "open-minded people" want to shut out all divisive opinions others may have, but it's not going to help at all if you keep ignoring other people.... I understand how your arrogance doesn't let you let an issue go whether you're right or wrong, but it's detrimental to your cause and it's not going to help you be more open minded. I'm not the one claiming to be "open minded," although one doesn't have to keep making such claim if they really are.
I'm just pointing out the irony of those who claim to be open minded, but dismiss ideas outside their realm of thought.
At least I'm trying to have a conversation with 2 people who are obviously against whatever viewpoints I have. If I wanted to stop the discussion, I would not reply to your current points. Are you saying you think eliroo wanted to stop his dialogue with you because he wanted to silence your opinion? Because I think you're mistaken if so.
I'd wager it was more that he realized that someone wanted nothing more than to silence his opinion so he just decided to be the bigger person.
But then again what do I know. Since that same person likes to do nothing but attempt to tell me I know nothing and am nothing but an *** that doesn't deserve respect, time and time again.
"A wise man knows he knows nothing".
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By fonewear 2016-11-23 15:11:33
Relax if you cared this much the election Hillary would have won !
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By fonewear 2016-11-23 15:15:04
If you guys are tired of having a "this conversation" how come I'm seeing page after page of this ***with no end in sight ?
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 15:19:16
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »Then your country handles it poorly, because it nowhere covers the basic cost of living for a basic one room apartment for a basic 40 hour per week single employee. This was something Sanders really campaigned on; I could picture someone needing two jobs for a kid or a wife or a bigger apartment but they shouldn't need two jobs for that basic level.
(Not insinuating my country is any better, I just know you don't give a *** about how Canada handles it. Because your society is different than the US.
Thanks to Obamacare, not many companies are offering 40 hour per week work, especially for those whose skills are subpar to the company and country.
Also, we are not taxed to death like you are, so there's our tradeoff. Also, while we don't produce as much as we once did, we still produce more than Canada does. There's another tradeoff.
Canada and US are two completely different countries, and impossible to compare societies against each other.
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Garuda.Chanti
サーバ: Garuda
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Posts: 11416
By Garuda.Chanti 2016-11-23 15:28:03
And a Texan, and don't you forget it! Blue eyed Texan or brown eyed Texan?
サーバ: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 15:39:24
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »Produce more what exactly? Everything.
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »My statement of your country handling minimum wage poorly and worse than a lot of developed countries is unrelated to your society being different from Canada's. And your opinion is based on your viewpoints between our societies.
Which, like I stated, are two completely different things and impossible to compare.
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サーバ: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-23 15:40:25
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »I didn't read That explains a lot.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-11-23 15:42:36
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »My statement of your country handling minimum wage poorly and worse than a lot of developed countries is unrelated to your society being different from Canada's.
It is but not the conclusion that was being drawn.
We are pseudo-free market capitalist that pretend to care about the quality of life and rights of our citizens and the development of small businesses because that is marketable and makes us look super cool and attractive to the people outside the country.
Whereas you're some what free market capitalists that actually care about the quality of life and rights of your citizens and developing small business; because that is the right thing to do to build a strong country.
We are far more capitalistic and opportunist when comes to taking advantage of our fellow man. We've also done a real good job of making people not want to come to your country; by telling the world you're boring and lame. Though you have a cleaner environment, better job opportunities, actual socio-economic upward mobility, along with decent health care that we demonize because we don't want the rest of the world to know about it. We're insecure like that we don't want potential immigrants picking you over us.
But really we're good, sane and stable people down here in the states, honest.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
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Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-11-23 15:44:33
taking advantage of our fellow man This is somewhere in the american anthem too right?
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By eliroo 2016-11-23 15:45:37
taking advantage of our fellow man This is somewhere in the american anthem too right?
Why do you think "socialism" is a curse word here?
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By Zerowone 2016-11-23 15:56:56
I'd be interested. I work with the Akimel O'Odham, Tohono O'Odham, Navajo, White River and San Carlos Apache reservations on a daily basis. Every now and then some Oneida and Ojibwe. I enjoy learning about other cultures, but not in the tourist sense.
Node 285
Because Isack isn't on. He gets the next two. >.>
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