Site Update 2016.03.29

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Site Update 2016.03.29
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By GReaper23 2016-03-29 15:23:17  
Ultimate weapons also do not look to be factored in point totals. Not just the shields/instruments. Back to the bottom when fixed. >.>
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-03-29 15:54:12  
If you wanted to scale points by time investment, Relic and stuff need a bit of a rework:

Mythic weapons:


Empyreans are difficult because mules really make them easier to farm. I've settled on 3 characters and 10 kills/hr, because that way the time/gil ratio approximately matches the AH compared to the other weapons.


Ergon weapons are another one that depends heavily on the number of characters:


Leveling a job from 1-99 can take as little as 1~2 hours now.

You can probably get 150 merits per hour including time for warping and dumping and wondering why you're doing it.

CP can go upwards of 10mil/hr.

Crafting still probably takes 24 hours to go from 1-110.

City missions and Zilart take about 5 hours from Rank 1 to 10 (or beginning to end of Zilart).

Other mission lines probably take 20-40 hours to complete.



Anyway, the point is that level 80-90 Empyreans shouldn't really be worth anything and XP is still massively overvalued.
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By Jetackuu 2016-03-29 15:57:26  
lolwut
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-03-29 15:57:47  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
(campaign with two characters for about 80 HPB per hour plus other requirements)
Why the hell should the system assume you use more than one character.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-03-29 16:10:59  
Ultimately because the system can't know how many characters are being used. The economy, however, effectively does.

HMPs are going for 10mil/stack right now, meaning it costs about 151mil to obtain 1500 HMPs. Alexandrite is going for 530k/stack, meaning it costs about 160mil to obtain 30000 Alexandrite.

Solo farming 30000 Alexandrite is much much faster than solo farming 1500 HMPs, but the price is comparable because people don't farm HMPs with one character and farming HMPs with 3 characters is 3 times as efficient. It would be more accurate to convert every currency into gil before doing the calculation, but then you can't compare it to other things that you actually have to do yourself. Instead of doing that, I just approximately scaled currencies by their gil value and pegged them to actually farming your own Alexandrite.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-03-29 16:12:11  
Who cares about that. This is achievements for individual characters, it should only note individual time spent if that is the route you want to take to define them.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-03-29 16:13:26  
Fine, then, HMPs take the same amount of time to farm as Alexandrite then because a solo player would farm Alexandrite, sell it, and buy HMPs.

Regardless how you cut it, 80-90 empyreans shouldn't be worth a ***and xp is overrated.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2016-03-29 16:16:52  
Did they change empyrean requirements or something? Last I checked, a lv80 took about 25-30 hours to get. The first 3(x3) NMs have reduced repops, but the latter 3(x4) don't in most cases. VNM are easy/quick, but repops still make it take about 90 min/step, 2.5h on the crags one.

4 hours is also pretty optimistic for farming 50 of many of the abyssea drops, you'd need like 7-8 kills an hour.
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By Draylo 2016-03-29 16:19:02  
No they didn't, it still takes an annoying amount of time to complete them as I just did one recently. I'd rather farm something quick like HTB and then buy the materials, but you can't do that as easily for empy weapons.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-03-29 16:21:11  
Okay, but right now it's worth the same number of points as farming 17000 Dynamis currency.
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2016-03-29 16:22:28  
I love achievement points!
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-03-29 16:40:03  
Oh hey, 1(1) again. Don't I feel special.
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By ibm2431 2016-03-29 17:09:34  
Then there's people like me who run two separate Salvage instances simultaneously, doubling "alex per hour". I second the economy-based point values. With a time conversion only taking place for things that are absolutely time only.

As for what that time -> achievement points value should be, I suggest an average between sustainable farming activities like Dynamis and Salvage (ie: not HPBs, since campaigns aren't guaranteed to be in effect). First decide how many points non-Empyrean weapons are, arrive at gil-to-points, determine our average gil/hr (75 alex, 200 currency per hour) we could make if we had been farming, and that gives you hours-to-points to use for things like Empyrean trials.

And as far as Empyrean drops are concerned, I'll provide my personal anecdote that when I most recently farmed Glavoid about a year ago (post ilvl, with two characters), my goal was 4 kills per Abyssea entry. Sure, it's "possible" to reach up to 8 (due to 15min timed respawns), but man does the Glavoid set really suck to make.

Either way, for a lot of trials, you physically can not get more than 4 kills per hour.

edit:
Lakshmi.Byrth said:
Crafting still probably takes 24 hours to go from 1-110.

Don't forget gil costs! (Which admittedly aren't as high as they used to be, but still.)

On the fishing front, during a double skill campaign I pulled 40-80 in 24 hours (there was about 8 hours of sleep in there). But I remember it taking two days (again, minus sleep) for 80 to 100.

Also, I did Laevateinn trials last November. Was getting 100 kills per 44 minute long Netflix documentary.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-03-29 17:15:37  
I think having a perfect balance that makes everybody agree is utopistic.
I kind of agree with what Byrth said for the most part, but I can see other people not agreeing and ultimately don't really care that much.

One thing we can all agree with though, I hope, is that noway Job Points should be less worth than Merit Points (current situation).
I don't want to go as far as to say if Job Points should be worth more than RMEs, Crafting, Missions or whatever else, but they definitely should be worth more than merits!


Glad Rooks agrees with this and that a change is coming next week <3
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By Asura.Auburn 2016-03-29 19:18:15  
GReaper23 said: »
Ultimate weapons also do not look to be factored in point totals. Not just the shields/instruments. Back to the bottom when fixed. >.>
I think it's more that ultimate weapons aren't being picked up. My Kannagi isn't showing up in my profile at 119-3 (or at all since I never scanned before finishing it completely).
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-29 19:44:47  
Asura.Sechs said: »
One thing we can all agree with though, I hope, is that noway Job Points should be less worth than Merit Points (current situation).

They shouldn't be. Merits are obscenely easy to get, JP aren't.

I can go out as any job and some trusts and cap out 75 merits within 30~45 minutes. Same job, same trusts won't get anywhere near 75 job points in the same point of time, monsters just don't yield enough. Apex monsters are the only ones that yield CP in high quantities and you need a coordinated party to effectively farm those due to their obscenely high HP. It can't be just any melee's spamming their most powerful WS's, they need to either setup a SC + MB or setup a multi-step SC with a powerful finisher.

The problem is right now we are back in the 75 merit mentality where everyone wants the same 3~4 jobs. BLM, GEO, SCH and COR are so in demand for CP parties that anyone CPing those jobs feels like it's "too easy". Jobs like WAR, DRK, SAM, WHM, BRD, and RUN have to pull teeth and beg favors from their GEO, BLM, SCH and COR friends. Then you have jobs like SMN, THF, NIN and PUP which are super hard to get even your friends to take you. Then you have the stuff accuracy requirements, good gear isn't enough you need amazing gear to reliably hit ***. 1050~1080 base accuracy on Apex crawlers / raptors and 1100~1140 base acc on Crabs / Pugils / Bats. That is stupid hard for melee's to hit without some serious HQ gear. With godly HQ melee gear, AG3 Ragnarok and 2100 JP, my WAR only hits 1150~1170 base accuracy. A moderately geared melee at 0 JP would be hard pressed to even hit Apex monsters.

I know this is long but people really need to realize that getting JP on BLM, GEO or COR is dramatically different then getting it on WAR, DRK or SAM. I'm now working on my SAM to 2100 and due to the complete lack of BLM's I've had to switch tactics to doing a four step double light SC with a partner on Apex bats using BRD's and often mules. Someone without access to my resources would be stuck killing sound splitter bats or other weak monsters for really low JP/hr.

Anyhow AH points are still about spamming as many RME's as possible. Doesn't matter if the person plans to upgrade or actually use them, as long as they got the base form it counts. Personally I would make all RME's not at 99 be worth zero points and those not at 119 worth significantly less. Obviously the special ones being exempt (Shields / Instruments).
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By Fenrir.Voluptasia 2016-03-29 19:48:24  
GUNGNIR 119, vishap +1, can't seem to read these items
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By Rooks 2016-03-29 20:00:29  
I'm still poking at formulas. It's my own fault for not addressing the "merits are worth so much" earlier, but they're in a couple of places and sort of obnoxious to deal with. I also wanted to make sure the game got to a relatively stable looking endgame before I tweaked things too much.

That said, right now it's super broken and that's my fault. Mea culpa.
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-03-29 20:08:59  
Am I the only one that things the achievement points system is a silly side thing to begin with and it would probably be way too much work to redo the entire thing and convert it using time or economical values just for that.
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By Cerberus.Drayco 2016-03-29 20:14:38  
Asura.Failaras said: »
Am I the only one that things the achievement points system is a silly side thing to begin with

Yes
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-03-29 20:18:38  
Fair enough.
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By Damane 2016-04-03 17:28:31  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Okay, but right now it's worth the same number of points as farming 17000 Dynamis currency.

i think the prerequesits to start any of the ultimate weapons should be factored in too.

Relic and Empy have no prerequsite and you can just start away

mythic has some by getting captain rank (with rhapsodie KIs it should take couple days tops)

and ergons, well... 8 months of maxing out all coalitions go figure!

also only lvl 99 and 119 ultimate weapons respectively should count.
lvl 90-95 empys/relics/mythics have nothing to search up there.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-04-03 18:27:02  
Paradoxically, I feel it's almost "harder" to get an Empy 90 nowadays (if you have no mule army!) than it were back during the abyssea golden age lol.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-04-03 19:34:54  
Damane said: »
also only lvl 99 and 119 ultimate weapons respectively should count.

I've said this a few times. 99 Should be worth some points and then 119 and 119-2/3 should be worth a lot more. Previously the rankings were dominated by how many low level RME's someone could farm up.
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By Takisan 2016-04-05 17:08:39  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Damane said: »
also only lvl 99 and 119 ultimate weapons respectively should count.

I've said this a few times. 99 Should be worth some points and then 119 and 119-2/3 should be worth a lot more. Previously the rankings were dominated by how many low level RME's someone could farm up.

Agreed. To me its the difference between someone just collecting the weapons to get achievement points verses someone who actually plays the job, is somewhat good at it, and is trying to excel at it. Like what good is a lvl 80 legendary sword/dagger/polearm used to kill something going to do anyone in Reisenjima?

Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Fine, then, HMPs take the same amount of time to farm as Alexandrite then because a solo player would farm Alexandrite, sell it, and buy HMPs.

Regardless how you cut it, 80-90 empyreans shouldn't be worth a ***and xp is overrated.

So if everyone decided to attack HMPs indirectly like this on a server, where would the HMPs come from? Eventually a flood of alex will tend to reduce the price of alex and a lack of people farming plates will make them higher price. I guess the new trust emote coordination in the update as well as being able to use stones from the npc will help with HMP farming but this step is still a monster to get past.
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