Burns Oregon Refuge Takeover Ends In Blood

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Burns Oregon Refuge Takeover Ends In Blood
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By 2016-01-29 14:54:15
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By Altimaomega 2016-01-29 15:01:21  
Candlejack said: »
Candlejack said: »

So yeah.. They are throwing as much as they can and seeing what will stick.. Do you really expect anything less?
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By Jetackuu 2016-01-29 15:02:31  
Altimaomega said: »
And nobody better claim that Fox is right leaning, that rag is getting father left by the day.

Jetackuu said: »

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...ha.

Good one.

That's twice now.
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By Ulthakptah 2016-01-29 15:04:05  
Candlejack said: »
Ulthakptah said: »
Ramyrez said: »
My desire for the government to act in the public's best interest and belief that they try to do that first and foremost doesn't mean it's always the case.

I'd sort of like a few more hard facts one way or another.

While it doesn't really change my opinion of the poor choices the militia members/occupiers made -- taking over a government facility was stupid regardless, and doing so without a better plan was worse still -- it may sway me a little on their motives.

Just because the government wants to do what's right and what's best doesn't mean it always does.
Okay this is what I don't understand. Did they really take over a government facility? Americans have the right to assemble in protest, they are allowed to carry firearms, yet to do both at the same time is illegal? That's stupid.

It's not like they took hostages or shot at anyone.
They committed a felony (Threatening federal employees with bodily harm and impeding federal employees' duties). They weren't allowing anyone outside their little loony-fringe circle into the building, destroyed government property as well as historical artifacts... I went down a list of charges they could possibly be nailed with in court if the government and the Burns Paiute tribe decided to prosecute to the full extent of the law a page or two back. There's some serious stuff there. Possibly even charges of treason, but that might be pushing it. At any rate, they've done enough and stupidly recorded what they did while they were at it, to ensure each of them goes to prison for the rest of their lives if prosecuted to the full extent.
So where did you see that they did these things? Because this is news to me.
 
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By Ulthakptah 2016-01-29 15:18:45  
Candlejack said: »
Ulthakptah said: »
Candlejack said: »
Ulthakptah said: »
Ramyrez said: »
My desire for the government to act in the public's best interest and belief that they try to do that first and foremost doesn't mean it's always the case.

I'd sort of like a few more hard facts one way or another.

While it doesn't really change my opinion of the poor choices the militia members/occupiers made -- taking over a government facility was stupid regardless, and doing so without a better plan was worse still -- it may sway me a little on their motives.

Just because the government wants to do what's right and what's best doesn't mean it always does.
Okay this is what I don't understand. Did they really take over a government facility? Americans have the right to assemble in protest, they are allowed to carry firearms, yet to do both at the same time is illegal? That's stupid.

It's not like they took hostages or shot at anyone.
They committed a felony (Threatening federal employees with bodily harm and impeding federal employees' duties). They weren't allowing anyone outside their little loony-fringe circle into the building, destroyed government property as well as historical artifacts... I went down a list of charges they could possibly be nailed with in court if the government and the Burns Paiute tribe decided to prosecute to the full extent of the law a page or two back. There's some serious stuff there. Possibly even charges of treason, but that might be pushing it. At any rate, they've done enough and stupidly recorded what they did while they were at it, to ensure each of them goes to prison for the rest of their lives if prosecuted to the full extent.
So where did you see that they did these things? Because this is news to me.
Like I said, they stupidly recorded it themselves. In fact, Finicum, himself, would sit outside the building armed with a gun to make sure no one approached. If that's not interfering with government employee duties through an obvious threat of violence, I don't know what is. It's also been widely reported in the span of the occupation that the Bundy Bunch were recording everything they were doing, while stupidly not realizing this could give the government plenty of legal ammo to use against them if the chance to prosecute them all came up.
I can't find what you are talking about. Infact trying to find it I sort of found the opposite.

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By Altimaomega 2016-01-29 15:19:17  
Candlejack said: »
Like I said, they stupidly recorded it themselves. In fact, Finicum, himself, would sit outside the building armed with a gun to make sure no one approached. If that's not interfering with government employee duties through an obvious threat of violence, I don't know what is. It's also been widely reported in the span of the occupation that the Bundy Bunch were recording everything they were doing, while stupidly not realizing this could give the government plenty of legal ammo to use against them if the chance to prosecute them all came up.

It is funny that you think that recording themselves is stupid. Which if they are doing something massively illegal it is. Otherwise recording everything is as much for their protection as a gun is. I don't find it hard to believe that that point is lost upon you however.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-01-29 15:24:19  
Ramyrez said: »
My desire for the government to act in the public's best interest and belief that they try to do that first and foremost doesn't mean it's always the case.
You mean never the case.

The federal government never has the best interest of the public in mind.
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By Ulthakptah 2016-01-29 15:28:33  
Okay I found the video of him sitting with a gun. Turns out the reason he did it is when he found out there was a warrant out for his arrest he wanted be out in the open so no one else would be caught in the middle of gun fire in the case they came in guns blazing and in fact was not on guard threatening to shoot people. But yeah he does say he would rather die free then live in jail. Honestly in CJ's attempt to demonize this old man I actually became empathetic towards him.

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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-01-29 17:50:43  
Altimaomega said: »
Ulthakptah said: »
It's not like they took hostages or shot at anyone.

Or harmed anyone or caused property damage....
They did cause property damage, and disturbed an archaeological site.

Among other transgressions.
 
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-01-29 18:07:57  
Altimaomega said: »
So yeah.. They are throwing as much as they can and seeing what will stick.. Do you really expect anything less?
No. They are not. CJ just listed stiff they could use if they did.

Altimaomega said: »
It is funny that you think that recording themselves is stupid. Which if they are doing something massively illegal it is. Otherwise recording everything is as much for their protection as a gun is. I don't find it hard to believe that that point is lost upon you however.
Recording themselves comitting crimes IS stipid. Putting it on the web even more so.
 
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By Altimaomega 2016-01-29 18:30:38  
Candlejack said: »
And reaching for a gun or giving the suspicion that you're armed when dealing with the police may get one laid out for a funeral earlier than expected. Finicum found that out the hard way.

Thanks for pointing that out Captain Obvious. From everything I've seen and heard.. Him reaching into his pockets was actually him getting shot once grabbing his side, then getting shot again..

The FBI is refusing to release the dash cam video last I heard as well.. From the helicopter it obvious he got shot and grabbed his side..

Keep getting your news from MSNBC though, its cute.
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By Jassik 2016-01-29 18:51:25  
Altimaomega said: »
Candlejack said: »
And reaching for a gun or giving the suspicion that you're armed when dealing with the police may get one laid out for a funeral earlier than expected. Finicum found that out the hard way.

Thanks for pointing that out Captain Obvious. From everything I've seen and heard.. Him reaching into his pockets was actually him getting shot once grabbing his side, then getting shot again..

The FBI is refusing to release the dash cam video last I heard as well.. From the helicopter it obvious he got shot and grabbed his side..

Keep getting your news from MSNBC though, its cute.

I don't think it's very obvious, both his hands reach into his jacket at different times. You're saying he was shot before reaching into his pocket the first time? The second arm motion I can understand, but he also immediately puts his hands back up after the first AND second reach. It's only the third time when he keeps his hand at his side then falls down.

I'd be curious to see the dashcam, though. As I've said many times, even if an officer is doing the shooting, the level of scrutiny shouldn't change.
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By Altimaomega 2016-01-29 18:53:45  
It would depend on how many times he was shot, which is hard to determine with the video provided. Also, he was apparently unarmed if that even matters..
 
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By Jassik 2016-01-29 18:55:08  
Altimaomega said: »
It would depend on how many times he was shot, which is hard to determine with the video provided. Also, he was apparently unarmed if that even matters..

I've heard it stated both ways. The FBI says they found a loaded pistol in his jacket pocket. Given the nature of his death and the events leading up to it, either armed or unarmed wouldn't surprise me.
 
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By Altimaomega 2016-01-29 19:00:59  
Candlejack said: »
Altimaomega said: »
It would depend on how many times he was shot, which is hard to determine with the video provided. Also, he was apparently unarmed if that even matters..
They found his handgun in his coat pocket. He wasn't "unarmed", he was definitely packin'.

Proof? I've seen none of the sort..

I'm with Jassik on this.
Jassik said: »
I've heard it stated both ways. The FBI says they found a loaded pistol in his jacket pocket. Given the nature of his death and the events leading up to it, either armed or unarmed wouldn't surprise me.

Candlejack said: »
Wouldn't surprise me
Sure doesn't sound like it.

Candlejack said: »
He's also on record stating he'd rather be taken dead than alive.
So?


Candlejack said: »
The fact he'd sit outside armed and watching for any cops while knowing he had a warrant out also speaks to the fact he knew they'd take him one way or another.
Protecting the parameter is a well establish method.
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By Jassik 2016-01-29 19:01:00  
Candlejack said: »
Jassik said: »
Altimaomega said: »
It would depend on how many times he was shot, which is hard to determine with the video provided. Also, he was apparently unarmed if that even matters..

I've heard it stated both ways. The FBI says they found a loaded pistol in his jacket pocket. Given the nature of his death and the events leading up to it, either armed or unarmed wouldn't surprise me.
Wouldn't surprise me, either. He's also on record stating he'd rather be taken dead than alive. The fact he'd sit outside armed and watching for any cops while knowing he had a warrant out also speaks to the fact he knew they'd take him one way or another.

People say a lot of things, that doesn't mean they'd actually do them. I take his comments about as seriously as a B-rate gangster flick. The reaching into his pockets is what concerns me, as nothing else about that incident qualifies as self defense from the officers' standpoint.

I will say, I'd like to think it's more likely they'd have had non-lethal weapons at the ready if he hadn't made those remarks instead of pistols, but given the last several years of police shootings, that's probably the last bit of optimism dying inside me.
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-01-29 19:36:01  
For funsies, here's a video I had to watch as part of a training session on the use of deadly force. Despite being super old and goofy, the methods for identifying and responding to threats in this video are still being taught to and use by law enforcement today.

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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-01-29 19:38:49  
And now it moves to the courts. By design if Bundy is to be belived.

Oregon Militants Will Now Fight Their Battle In Federal Court
Most of the people who occupied a federal wildlife refuge for a month will be defended at the expense of U.S. taxpayers.

HuffPo

Quote:
WASHINGTON -- While four militants continue to occupy a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, the eight individuals swept up in a law enforcement operation this week are behind bars, facing federal felony charges and preparing for a legal battle that could send them to prison and permanently take away their right to possess weapons.

As of Friday, six of the militants have been assigned a federal public defender or court-appointed lawyer, meaning the federal government they were protesting will be footing their legal bills. Ammon Bundy -- the son of rancher Cliven Bundy, who engaged in a prior battle with the federal government over unpaid grazing fees -- is crowdsourcing online to pay for his private legal defense.

All of the people arrested -- Ammon Bundy and his brother Ryan Bundy, Jon Ritzheimer, Joseph O'Shaughnessy, Ryan Payne, Brian Cavalier, Shawna Cox and Peter Santilli -- have a court appearance scheduled for Feb. 3 and an arraignment set for Feb. 24. They all face a charge of conspiracy "to impede officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through use of force, intimidation, or threats."

In a statement issued by his lawyers, Ammon Bundy called on the militants still occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to turn themselves in peacefully. "The world is listening," he said. "We will use the criminal discovery process to obtain information and government records. We will continue to educate the American people of the injustices that are taking place."

Bundy is crowdfunding for a total of $100,000 in legal fees. The online pitch his legal team set up says that while the protest was the first stage of Bundy's plan to deliver his message, "Phase 2 is through the courts." As of Friday, 21 supporters had pledged $1,979.

Lawyers for Bundy told local news station KATU that they believed their client started a national conversation on public land rights.

"Ammon's argument is sound. Their message is clear. And they're going to continue even if they're in custody, continue to believe in liberty and freedom for American citizens," one lawyer said.

Lissa Casey, another one of Bundy's lawyers, told local station KEZI that her firm took the case because it's interested in the Constitution, individual liberties and disputes between citizens and the government. "This case has gone on to a national debate about federal government interacting with citizens in the form of land management. But I think that it’s going to be an even larger debate. And we wanted to help," Casey said.

The militants began occupying the wildlife refuge on Jan. 2. Seeking to combat rumors about Tuesday's fatal shooting of militant Robert "LaVoy" Finicum, the FBI released helicopter footage on Thursday that showed him fleeing law enforcement, nearly striking an FBI agent with his vehicle, then emerging from his car and appearing to reach for a loaded weapon in his pocket.

In addition to the loaded 9 mm handgun that was in LaVoy Finicum's pocket, agents found three other loaded weapons, inducing semi-automatic rifles, inside the truck, according to the FBI.

David Fry, one of the four militants still at the wildlife refuge who has been livestreaming on YouTube under the name "DefendYourBase," told the Los Angeles Times that he and his remaining colleagues were willing to leave, but wanted the FBI's guarantee that they would not be arrested.

One video Fry uploaded on Thursday titled "Maybe last Dance?" shows a couple in camouflage slow-dancing to music blasting from a white pickup truck. The man in the footage said in a prior video that members of law enforcement were going to come in and kill them.

In another video on Thursday morning, Fry said that one of the militants was wanted on a warrant, so only three of them were free to go. They believed the government might arrest them at a later date.

"It turns out that if you do leave, they end up charging you later, and they are pressing everyone here it sounds like with that same felony charge of interfering with a federal employee's job," Fry said. "If you get a felony, you can't vote anymore and they take your guns away." The approach was "unfair," he added.

"A lot of those rioters over there in Ferguson and whatnot, they went to the riots with intentions of robbing and burning down cities, and everyone here came with intentions of thinking it was a peaceful, you know, revolution," Fry said.

Many of the armed militants said over the course of their occupation of federal land that they would match force with force if law enforcement confronted them.
 
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