FFVII Remake... It's Official! (Discussion)

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FFVII Remake... It's official! (Discussion)
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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-08-04 05:38:01  
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
I'm not sure why you can accept Kuja being driven to madness, but not Sephiroth being driven to madness. It's almost the same result, just backwards. One was not of this world and instead discovers his mortality thus making him like humans; the other thought he was a human but discovers he's not from this world.
I'm confused how you can't see the difference.

When a human finds out they're not quite what they thought they are, an identity crisis makes sense. I'm gay and was raised very conservatively Catholic, I've been through serious identity crisis. I got upset, went catatonic like Zidane, but never felt like I needed to destroy the world. Sephiroth found out that he's adopted (sort of) and says, "Eh, *** it, all humans must die." Unless it turns out his father was Bender, this isn't a normal progression. Being angry at Shinra makes sense, wanting to wipe out the planet, not so much. Especially because, again, he was a decent, nice guy.

Kuja wasn't a decent, nice guy. He was a pompous, arrogant *** and he was very much aware that he could back up his egomania with killing force. More to the point, he thought he was immortal, on top of being nearly unstoppable. When a god finds out he's mortal, that's hugely different from finding out you're adopted or you're a test tube baby whose daddy was an anonymous sperm donor or whatever. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like Sephiroth ever got a clear answer on what the hell JENOVA was, right? We the players barely know. Additionally, in game terms, Kuja's temper tantrum lasted a couple of hours, maybe a couple days, at most. Sephiroth hatches this absurd scheme on the basis of almost no information and pursues it single-mindedly and very much in defiance of his real personality for months, if not years.

They're really not that similar.

And I mentioned my degree once to point out that I spend a lot of my time analyzing this sort of thing. The fact that you disagree does not mean that I've been engaging in argumentum ab auctitore.

Want to prove me wrong? Then prove me wrong. Argumentum ad hominem by pointing out that I don't like the game (a point I've repeated several times) is not the same thing as refuting the points I've made. Sephiroth is not a believable character. The remainder of the cast, barring Cloud, are one-dimensional and static. The moral of the story is muddled by inept writing. And the tone is, to put it charitably, bipolar. As someone who obsesses about story, I find this whole thing about as satisfying as reading fanfic written by a teenager. My problem is with the story and, more importantly, with the slobbering praise heaped on it by legions of fanboys.

Like I said, though, pretty much all the Final Fantasy stories have that problem. As literature, they're honestly more shallow than the average network TV primetime drama. Heaven knows, one actually sees real motivation to commit atrocity watching Law & Order, instead of these cardboard villains.

The gameplay is fine, even if I find it a little obnoxious that everyone is basically a Materia slot with no meaningful difference beyond what their ultimate weapon and Limit Breaks do. I was defending the battle system, if you happened to miss that.
 Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2015-08-04 05:40:20  
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »
I think this explains it quite well but having to play several games to know his story isn't the best. They should have fleshed it all out and told us in the first game.
It was all in the first game though. Told by Hojo, flashback in the snow hut, taking Vincent on your journey, visiting Lucrecias cave, reading the notes in shinra manor. Crisis Core added only a tiny bit to Sephiroth, but the original version from ffvii remained true.
That important information could be missed can be either disliked or add more fun to exploring. Depends on the player's personality, but it's a fact that the information were all there.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-08-04 05:46:08  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
And I mentioned my degree once to point out that I spend a lot of my time analyzing this sort of thing. The fact that you disagree does not mean that I've been engaging in argumentum ab auctitore.
And in fact that was not in response to you, but to Orlind, who in a way implied that because one has a degree he can understand a story better(he rectified, so I know that was not actually his point).
edit: also it's auctoritate

As for saying you don't like the game, I meant story only.

Now, if we can move on from what had nothing to do with the conversation..

Shiva.Onorgul said: »
you're a test tube baby
That is the key point. Sephiroth saw that he was not human, that would certainly *** up most people's minds. Just cause he was cool before then, doesn't mean he can't become insane.
Again, I don't particularly place FF7 high in the FF history, but Sephiroth's insanity doesn't seem like that big of an offender.

And I mentioned Kuja because both characters are subjected to a shock about what kind of entities they are.
 Ragnarok.Orlind
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By Ragnarok.Orlind 2015-08-04 06:57:33  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
When a human finds out they're not quite what they thought they are, an identity crisis makes sense. I'm gay and was raised very conservatively Catholic, I've been through serious identity crisis. I got upset, went catatonic like Zidane, but never felt like I needed to destroy the world. Sephiroth found out that he's adopted (sort of) and says, "Eh, *** it, all humans must die." Unless it turns out his father was Bender, this isn't a normal progression. Being angry at Shinra makes sense, wanting to wipe out the planet, not so much. Especially because, again, he was a decent, nice guy.

Your basis of Sephiroth being nice seems a bit thin to me as you base that on him being tolerate of Zack's enthusiasm. Plenty of people tolerate abhorrent behaviour with smiles and polite conversation but that doesn't mean they're nice or even decent. In Sephiroth's case, he was being professional to a colleague on a mission and one could even say condescending to one beneath his skill.

Playing Crisis Core, you might even say that game added a reason for him being tolerate: Zack was someone important to someone he considered important, Angeal.

As for his psychotic break, it wasn't just one thing that made that happen. He was noted by his closest friends as coming back from the Wutai War different even from those same friends that experienced it with him. You can also see in the flashbacks and Crisis Core as he is confronted by lie after lie, having to confront them one step at a time while being strung along. Each confrontation of these lies clearly weighs on him even if you only see these reactions briefly. Playing Crisis Core builds on this as well but I think you may have mentioned not playing it if I'm right.

While you think its not plausible for someone that went through Sephiroth's experiences to want the world dead, it doesn't make it impossible. I can attest to such examples from my own life experiences from people breaking under relatively less and cursory research. And while those I dealt with didn't have the power to destroy the world, they certainly wanted to if they could and have attempted to do things akin to what happened in Nibelheim.
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-04 07:11:46  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Unless it turns out his father was Bender
lol'd on that one.

Good show.
 Ragnarok.Orlind
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By Ragnarok.Orlind 2015-08-04 07:15:07  
Jetackuu said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Unless it turns out his father was Bender
lol'd on that one.

Good show.

I googled "bender sephiroth" for possibly funny pics. The results were... unexpected.
 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-08-04 09:31:59  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
especially because that existential crisis opened up his Trance state

Actually, he couldn't go into Trance because he never developed human emotions during childhood. Instead he absorbed the souls of the Invincible and the anger etc the souls felt enabled him to enter Trance.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-04 11:31:23  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Still doesn't make sense. Especially because, for all that he had a cult of personality around him that would make the average US political pundit wet with raging jealousy, he was actually still a pretty decent guy. When he's interacting with Cloud Zack, he's encouraging and nice and answers personal questions. A face-heel turn into "*** it, everyone dies now," would be laughed out of a WWE arena, much less a story that the entire world apparently lauds as being the best in video game history.

Sephiroth has all the hallmarks of someone who grew up in an abusive / neglectful home and his personality reflects that. His cult of personality is mostly Shinra propaganda to get recruits and though he displays attempts to be 'normal', no one really buys it. All the grunts look up to him because his combat skill is unmatched and hes just the person you want on your side as a soldier.

He may laugh, make a joke at Zack's expense or be sarcastic but everything is painted with a brush of being distant and stoic. Not much of a surprise when you grow up in Shinra facilities like an experiment. Even his two BFFs, Angeal and Genesis are more socially competent than he and that's because they were raised by people.

Sephiroth opens up to his friends and he certainly seems more a normal person around them but there's still that gap between them. In combat, in ability to connect with people and in the results of their respective experiments. In contrast to Angeal's death where he accepts his fate with dignity (in no small part to having Zack around as a friend) Sephiroth loathes his fate and co-opts Jenova's destructive impulses. Classic meltdown.

Quote:
Advent Children shows us that Sephiroth doesn't change at all from his contrived genocidal plan.

Why would he? He's essentially Jenova incarnate now and everything we know about Jenova is that it destroys for the sake of destroying. With nothing left of value on Gaia, why would he care to stick around? He's fully embraced that he's a god and that all the universe is simply fuel for his ambition. The only thorn in his side are a couple of teenagers with attitude.

For Sephiroth to give up his plans would be to go against his Jenova nature and his soldier nature. Both as an entity of destruction and as a warrior who never gives up.

Kuja has family, Sephiroth does not.
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-04 11:34:54  
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
couple of teenagers with attitude.

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 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-08-04 11:41:58  
 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-08-04 12:02:50  
I doubt I will have any complaints about what they do with the story, I know the cast is great, as long as they give us limit breaks and summons with a great combat system, I'll be happy.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-08-04 12:09:10  
Oh man now I'm thinking about HD summons.

It always bothered me how Kjata is possibly the only summon in the series who never got to live past its square looking form of FFVII.
 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-08-04 12:30:13  
The summons haven't been viable since X, its irritating.
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-08-04 14:16:12  
Ignoring their viability (SE doesn't seem to grasp that slapping the Final Fantasy name on a game means people have certain expectations, one of which being that summons need to be a reasonable damage source), I would hope they find some way to marry our initial desire for an awesome cinematic sequence and our subsequent desire not to watch it over and over again. A system like FFIX's where there's a really quick short-form summon and the full sequence would be great, just don't tie damage to how long we're forced to sit and be bored.
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-04 14:20:21  
X had the short forms, was nice.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-08-04 14:23:21  
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Oh man now I'm thinking about HD summons.

It always bothered me how Kjata is possibly the only summon in the series who never got to live past its square looking form of FFVII.

Perhaps, but first they need to address the issue that there is not enough Doomtrain in the series.
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-04 14:25:49  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Oh man now I'm thinking about HD summons.

It always bothered me how Kjata is possibly the only summon in the series who never got to live past its square looking form of FFVII.

Perhaps, but they first need to address the issue that there is not enough Doomtrain in the series.
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-08-04 14:28:52  
Jetackuu said: »
X had the short forms, was nice.

Yeah, quite often I would summon Yojimbo, he would come in through a quick CS and give me a free Zanmato on 3 mobs, battle over! Best. Mercenary. Ever.
 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-08-04 14:29:10  
I dunno, I don't think I'd get tired of this anytime soon

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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-08-04 15:32:37  
I'm already tired of it. x.x
 Asura.Vinedrius
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By Asura.Vinedrius 2015-08-04 15:37:35  
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
It always bothered me how Kjata is possibly the only summon in the series who never got to live past its square looking form of FFVII.

Pandemona from FFVIII is in the same boat.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-08-04 15:39:38  
Not true, there are detailed artworks of Pandemona, and even an unreleased Type-0 render.
 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-08-04 15:58:48  
Asura.Vinedrius said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
It always bothered me how Kjata is possibly the only summon in the series who never got to live past its square looking form of FFVII.

Pandemona from FFVIII is in the same boat.

Ark too
 Asura.Vinedrius
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By Asura.Vinedrius 2015-08-04 16:13:43  
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Kuja has family, Sephiroth does not.

At least, Sephiroth has biological and human parents :p

I do know Sephiroth never experienced living as part of a family, but still, Kuja's personal life isn't any better. He didn't really have a family either.

He was crafted as a clone, didn't even experienced childhood and couldn't develop human emotions, learned that he was considered as a failure by his creator and that he was to be discarded once Zidane would be ready to replace him.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-04 16:53:40  
Just saying that Behemoth should have been healed for 9999.
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By volkom 2015-08-05 14:19:19  
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 Bismarck.Bloodbathboy
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By Bismarck.Bloodbathboy 2015-08-05 14:21:26  
volkom said: »
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No such thing!! Games looks amazing!
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-05 14:31:24  
volkom said: »
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*rollseyes*
 Bismarck.Bloodbathboy
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By Bismarck.Bloodbathboy 2015-08-05 14:33:34  
PG13! Nothing wrong with a women's chest!
 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2015-08-25 11:53:22  
Quote:
An update on the state of the Final Fantasy VII Remake reveals the title's visuals are starting to come together, but experimentation is ongoing when it comes to combat.

That's according to producer Yoshinori Kitase, who told Famitsu (via Gematsu) that progress is being made, while reiterating what has been said previously about the need to update the old turn-based battle system.

“We’re starting to see the visual direction,” Kitase said. “On the other hand, we’re currently working out the battle system and such through trial-and-error. Since there’s a possibility that the command battle system of the old days might not work today, we’re thinking hard about what kind of direction we can take it.

“Normally, when you do a remake, it becomes somewhere along the lines of a familiar action RPG, so we’re looking at how we can put out something like Final Fantasy VII while still surprising players.

"Please don’t ask about how far into development we are and such. [Laughs]."

Director Tetsuya Nomura previously said of the combat system: "We are going to be bringing dramatic changes, but we want to make sure it’s still recognizable."
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