Are Men Going Their Own Way? (MGTOW)

The author is aware of that and still laments the romanticism none the less. I'm sure she can conceptualize that people weren't necessarily more inclined to cheat on their partners back in the day (despite the show) as opposed to now.

The author is aware of that and still laments the romanticism none the less. I'm sure she can conceptualize that people weren't necessarily more inclined to cheat on their partners back in the day (despite the show) as opposed to now.

Writers romanticize many eras and ignore parts that don't fit their narrative.

E.g. Medieval novels: sanitation limitations and issues are usually not discussed

I have read many where that little multi purpose room called the guardrobe was carefully explained.

The proliferation of online dating sites and “hookup culture” — or decreased stigma around no-strings-attached sex between strangers — means that immature men’s playground is no longer just the halls of their office buildings. It’s the entire city.

“It’s like we’ve become this commodity where men can pick out what they want whenever they want,” said Alicia, 37, who works in advertising and lives downtown.

Wow hahahaha, this is amazing. Women, who are now "sexually liberated" and open their legs for anyone willing to give them that emotional high they want, find that men no longer have an incentive to settle down and provide her with children, yet someone it's still the mans fault and he's "immature" for acting in his best interest. Such open misandry right there for all to see.





Access to a women sex have always been commodities the same as a mans time, effort and commitment. It has been this way since before recorded history when the sum of our language was grunts, growls and moans. In previous times, the price for unlimited access to her sex was equally unlimited commitment with the price being enforced by social norms. Now the price for her sex is much much lower, just gotta give her an emotional high for a night, and she's wondering why men won't pay more. Furthermore let say a man was "honorable", "a gentlemen", and stupid enough to pay far above market price for her 30 year old sex that's had entire sports teams run through it, what contractual guarantee does that man have this she will uphold her end of the deal? To be loyal and not seek another mate, to have children, to support those children, and above all to provide him with access to her sex? Absolute none, zero guarantee that she will honor her side of the contract after he's rendered payment in full. The state even supports her decision to welsh on her contractual obligation, the state will protect her and prevent her from being pressured to pay her agreed upon debt. The state will forcibly extract even more from the man to give to her in exchange for her refusing to honor her contractual debt.

That is the western world for men, women are now worthless as wives and mothers, not from some innate flaw or inferiority but from feminism pushing contractual infidelity and the state supporting them. Would any of you pay me $20,000 for a car, that I may or may not be required to deliver to you, and if you dare to call me out on my bad faith negotiations then the I will get the government to come beat you and take another $20,000 from you?

Excerpts from facebook chat records tells the story much better.

Odin's balls, where to start?
Claims knowledge of unrecorded era in history? Check!
Makes generalizations of an entire gender? Check!
Makes broad claims of activities? Check!
Lack of any such supporting evidence? Check!

Misogyny, thy name is Saevel.

I misread that. For some reason, I thought it said using Facebook as a source, not chat records.

Knee-jerk reaction - Check!
Endless ignoring of actual realities - Check!
Pretends to know someone's motivations - Check!

Yep folks we got a mysandrist here!

WHEN our family moved from the West Village to the Upper East Side in 2004, seeking proximity to Central Park, my in-laws and a good public school, I thought it unlikely that the neighborhood would hold any big surprises. For many years I had immersed myself — through interviews, reviews of the anthropological literature and participant-observation — in the lives of women from the Amazon basin to sororities at a Big Ten school. I thought I knew from foreign.

Then I met the women I came to call the Glam SAHMs, for glamorous stay-at-home-moms, of my new habitat. My culture shock was immediate and comprehensive. In a country where women now outpace men in college completion, continue to increase their participation in the labor force and make gains toward equal pay, it was a shock to discover that the most elite stratum of all is a glittering, moneyed backwater.

A social researcher works where she lands and resists the notion that any group is inherently more or less worthy of study than another. I stuck to the facts. The women I met, mainly at playgrounds, play groups and the nursery schools where I took my sons, were mostly 30-somethings with advanced degrees from prestigious universities and business schools. They were married to rich, powerful men, many of whom ran hedge or private equity funds; they often had three or four children under the age of 10; they lived west of Lexington Avenue, north of 63rd Street and south of 94th Street; and they did not work outside the home.

Instead they toiled in what the sociologist Sharon Hays calls “intensive mothering,” exhaustively enriching their children’s lives by virtually every measure, then advocating for them anxiously and sometimes ruthlessly in the linked high-stakes games of social jockeying and school admissions.

Their self-care was no less zealous or competitive. No ponytails or mom jeans here: they exercised themselves to a razor’s edge, wore expensive and exquisite outfits to school drop-off and looked a decade younger than they were. Many ran their homes (plural) like C.E.O.s.

It didn’t take long for me to realize that my background in anthropology might help me figure it all out, and that this elite tribe and its practices made for a fascinating story.

I was never undercover; I told the women I spent time with that I was writing a book about being a mother on the Upper East Side, and many of them were eager to share their perspectives on what one described as “our in many ways very weird world.”

It was easy for me to fall into the belief, as I lived and lunched and mothered with more than 100 of them for the better part of six years, that all these wealthy, competent and beautiful women, many with irony, intelligence and a sense of humor about their tribalism (“We are freaks for Flywheel,” one told me, referring to the indoor cycling gym), were powerful as well. But as my inner anthropologist quickly realized, there was the undeniable fact of their cloistering from men. There were alcohol-fueled girls’ nights out, and women-only luncheons and trunk shows and “shopping for a cause” events. There were mommy coffees, and women-only dinners in lavish homes. There were even some girlfriend-only flyaway parties on private planes, where everyone packed and wore outfits the same color.

“It’s easier and more fun,” the women insisted when I asked about the sex segregation that defined their lives.

“We prefer it,” the men told me at a dinner party where husbands and wives sat at entirely different tables in entirely different rooms.

Sex segregation, I was told, was a “choice.” But like “choosing” not to work, or a Dogon woman in Mali’s “choosing” to go into a menstrual hut, it struck me as a state of affairs possibly giving clue to some deeper, meaningful reality while masquerading, like a reveler at the Save Venice ball the women attended every spring, as a simple preference.

And then there were the wife bonuses.

I was thunderstruck when I heard mention of a “bonus” over coffee. Later I overheard someone who didn’t work say she would buy a table at an event once her bonus was set. A woman with a business degree but no job mentioned waiting for her “year-end” to shop for clothing. Further probing revealed that the annual wife bonus was not an uncommon practice in this tribe.

A wife bonus, I was told, might be hammered out in a pre-nup or post-nup, and distributed on the basis of not only how well her husband’s fund had done but her own performance — how well she managed the home budget, whether the kids got into a “good” school — the same way their husbands were rewarded at investment banks. In turn these bonuses were a ticket to a modicum of financial independence and participation in a social sphere where you don’t just go to lunch, you buy a $10,000 table at the benefit luncheon a friend is hosting.
Women who didn’t get them joked about possible sexual performance metrics. Women who received them usually retreated, demurring when pressed to discuss it further, proof to an anthropologist that a topic is taboo, culturally loaded and dense with meaning.

But what exactly did the wife bonus mean? It made sense only in the context of the rigidly gendered social lives of the women I studied. The worldwide ethnographic data is clear: The more stratified and hierarchical the society, and the more sex segregated, the lower the status of women.

Financially successful men in Manhattan sit on major boards — of hospitals, universities and high-profile diseases, boards whose members must raise or give $150,000 and more. The wives I observed are usually on lesser boards, women’s committees and museums in the outer boroughs with annual expectations of $5,000 or $10,000. Husbands are trustees of prestigious private schools, where they accrue the cultural capital that comes with being able to vouch for others in the admissions game; their wives are “class moms,” the unremunerated social and communications hub for all the other mothers.

WHILE their husbands make millions, the privileged women with kids who I met tend to give away the skills they honed in graduate school and their professions — organizing galas, editing newsletters, running the library and bake sales — free of charge. A woman’s participation in Mommynomics is a way to be helpful, even indispensable. It is also an act of extravagance, a brag: “I used to work, I can, but I don’t need to.”

Anthropology teaches us to take the long and comparative view of situations that may seem obvious. Among primates, Homo sapiens practice the most intensive food and resource sharing, and females may depend entirely on males for shelter and sustenance. Female birds and chimps never stop searching out food to provide for themselves and their young. Whether they are Hadza women who spend almost as much time as men foraging for food, Agta women of the Philippines participating in the hunt or !Kung women of southern Africa foraging for the tubers and roots that can tide a band over when there is no meat from a hunt, women who contribute to the group or family’s well-being are empowered relative to those in societies where women do not. As in the Kalahari Desert and rain forest, resources are the bottom line on the Upper East Side. If you don’t bring home tubers and roots, your power is diminished in your marriage. And in the world.

Rich, powerful men may speak the language of partnership in the absence of true economic parity in a marriage, and act like true partners, and many do. But under this arrangement women are still dependent on their men — a husband may simply ignore his commitment to an abstract idea at any time. He may give you a bonus, or not. Access to your husband’s money might feel good. But it can’t buy you the power you get by being the one who earns, hunts or gathers it.

The wives of the masters of the universe, I learned, are a lot like mistresses — dependent and comparatively disempowered. Just sensing the disequilibrium, the abyss that separates her version of power from her man’s, might keep a thinking woman up at night.

No, you have someone who doesn't agree with Saevel. Where exactly do I say men are horrible?

Poor Little Rich Women


A "modern" women's take on the ultra rich stay at home moms of NYC's elite. Full of disgust at the idea of a woman being dependent on a man. (Never mind the whole idea of traditional marriage is some sort of interdependency on each other.) Or maybe just disgusted with the notion that given the choice, there are actual women out there who actively choose it.

Says the guy(gal?) who spent less than 5 minutes glancing over it.

Maybe I'm confused by the lack of disgust in the article. Shock, yes. Astonishment, yes. It's a sub-culture separate from the norm.
Maybe I'm confused by what you mean by "traditional marriage". Because I'm fairly certain that setting performance goals for your significant other and giving bonuses based on them isn't necessarily part of that.

"A wife bonus, I was told, might be hammered out in a pre-nup or post-nup, and distributed on the basis of not only how well her husband’s fund had done but her own performance."

What exactly are we suppose to be angry about here?

What exactly are we suppose to be angry about here?

Naw, let it out Ramy.