The Real Cost Of Low Wages

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The real cost of low wages
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 09:26:40  
Garuda.Chanti said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
When they actually make less than $14k/year without any assistance, you will have a point.

If a family receives less than $14k in wages, they receive up towards $35k in federal handouts....just federal. Depending on the state, that could increase upwards towards $50k. They get that on top of their wages earned. How would you like to get up to $64k per year doing next to nothing?
Can I please ask for a citation there? I've been through times of hardship and I've known other people who have done as well. $200 a month in food stamps (this was back around the 2008 crash, the benefit has since been reduced or so I'm told) and virtually nothing else is kind of a long way from pulling down $35 grand a year.
hard data on welfare

Research about the amount of money received by welfare recipients
Interesting comparisons in those statics.

They seem to show that there are a whole lot of jobs out there that pay less than a living wage.
That second link was later retracted with an updated study that pretty much found an increase in recent years.

Also, wtf are you talking about? It shows that people are willing to put little effort and collect a lot more in government handouts than those who actually try to survive for a living.
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By Siren.Lordgrim 2015-04-23 13:37:33  
Siren.Lordgrim said: »
How to make better wages and jobs, Repeal free trade acts.

congressional meeting talking about how bad a deal America got out of free trade deals under republican and democratic leadership
YouTube Video Placeholder



NAFTA job loss year established 1993 = 680,000 jobs lost from America, all major TV networks and Both Political parties advertised this as being a great deal to have.

Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China act job loss year established 2000 = lead to the loss of over 2.2 million American jobs, Both parties and major networks agreed it was a great deal and passed it.

South Korean Free Trade Act jobs lost Year established 2011 = 60,000 jobs were lost from America, Major networks approved both parties approved.

Since 2001 due to free trade deals we have lost 60,000 factories in America, over that time period we lost over 4.7 million Manufacturing jobs in America.

In 1970 25% of all jobs in America were manufacturing jobs. Today there is only 9%.

In january 2001 there was 17.1 million manufacturing workers. Today that number is 12.3 million manufacturing workers in America.

Across all 50 states lost 34% of there manufacturing jobs over the past 14 years.

We are now faced with the Trans Pacific Free Trade Act that is written by corporations. Its reported to be the largest free trade act in history. Wall street, Pharmaceutical Industry and Major media companies have full knowledge of whats in the treaty. The american people and members of congress do not and have been locked out of the process.

There has been estimated jobs that could be losted to Vietnam and japan alone more then 135,000 jobs if it goes into effect thats just the tip of the iceberg.

More than manufacturing jobs to be lost in America due to TPP include the following over 3 million service center jobs;

call centers
computer programing
engineering
accounting
Medical diagnostic jobs


Free trade acts are bad. Whats more disturbing is these deals have been put in place by both the Republicans and Democrats at the behest of Corporations. Are you convinced now that they do not represent the peoples best interest ? Stop voting for Republicans and Democrats, lets reasses all these free trade acts , repeal them, and put our foot down on all these corporations and ceo's causing economic terrorism in the United States of America and bring our jobs home and rebuild this country to be even stronger to be A Better America.

the only way to get better wages and more jobs back to America
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 13:40:55  
Edited post because it was a copy of this post due to flower head's spamming.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 13:42:15  
Siren.Lordgrim said: »
the only way to get better wages and more jobs back to America
Actually, there are other ways to get better wages and more jobs back to America, but it requires a lot of skilled workers, both in manufacturing and service industries.

You know, knowledge. Something you are against.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-04-23 13:56:35  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
That refund isn't tax or a tax credit, it's an overpayment. Basically, you gave the federal government an interest free short-term loan.
THAT WAS EXACTLY MY POINT!

And, for the record, I don't loan the feds very much of my money. I actually would if, y'know, I didn't need every penny I can get to ensure my survival. Paying taxes doesn't bother me.

Actually, for that matter, can we at some point just start including the tax in the price of things? Anyone who has ever done grocery shopping on a budget knows what a godawful pain in the *** it can be to think you have $25 worth of groceries and $26 in cash on you, only to get nailed on tax. I mention groceries because, unlike most other goods, only some foods are taxed.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-04-23 13:57:58  
EpicFantasy said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
But if millions of people were doing this sort of thing, we'd know. We only have so many people living on government assistance, after all, and even 1,000,000 would be more than enough to raise huge red flags.

Are you insane or just totally out of touch with reality? You say even 1 million would raise red flags... Here are a few numbers for you.

Number of people on Food stamps.
2008... 28 million
2014... 47 million

Number of people on Medicaid.
2008... 44 million
2015... 70 million and rising fast.

Total number of people receiving some type of welfare from the government 110 Million..

So if 1 million would raise red flags what color flag does this raise for you?
If millions were free-loading shitstains like your brother, that would raise concerns. Thankfully, most recipients of welfare aren't. Idiot.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 13:59:15  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
And, for the record, I don't loan the feds very much of my money. I actually would if, y'know, I didn't need every penny I can get to ensure my survival. Paying taxes doesn't bother me.
Too be honest, I wish I didn't, but I have to pay quarterly estimated taxes of at least 1/4th of 110% of my prior year's tax or I will get hit with a penalty...

Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Actually, for that matter, can we at some point just start including the tax in the price of things? Anyone who has ever done grocery shopping on a budget knows what a godawful pain in the *** it can be to think you have $25 worth of groceries and $26 in cash on you, only to get nailed on tax. I mention groceries because, unlike most other goods, only some foods are taxed.
I'm all for that too.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 14:01:44  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
EpicFantasy said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
But if millions of people were doing this sort of thing, we'd know. We only have so many people living on government assistance, after all, and even 1,000,000 would be more than enough to raise huge red flags.

Are you insane or just totally out of touch with reality? You say even 1 million would raise red flags... Here are a few numbers for you.

Number of people on Food stamps.
2008... 28 million
2014... 47 million

Number of people on Medicaid.
2008... 44 million
2015... 70 million and rising fast.

Total number of people receiving some type of welfare from the government 110 Million..

So if 1 million would raise red flags what color flag does this raise for you?
If millions were free-loading shitstains like your brother, that would raise concerns. Thankfully, most recipients of welfare aren't. Idiot.
I'm surprised that you weren't going to mention that, out of the recipients of Medicaid, a significant portion receives food stamps also. So, in honesty, you don't add both numbers together.

But there are millions of free-loading shitheads playing the system. Unfortunately, the government doesn't want to crack down on those abusers because they can be potential voters.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-04-23 14:07:59  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
First off, you begin by saying that liberal economic policies do not contribute to bankruptcy, then you say "maybe" they do. Make up your damn mind!
Difference between the 100% claim and what I was saying. Which people who don't sit in their little partisan glass houses are more likely to notice.

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, what's your solution then? Have the government support the people in that town since their economy crashed due to the price of a commodity?
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? I mean that literally. I was pointing out the direct results of an unexpected shift in the market. Remember the *** claim that liberal policies cause bankruptcies?

What the mining company did was far more compassionate than you'd see from most corporations these days. Go ask some of the folks working for oil companies engaged in flopped fracking projects.

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
You mean the people who generally pay into that program and receive a smaller benefit than those who don't pay as much into that program? You do know that the payroll tax cut of 2% that happened a couple of years (2010) back happened during...you guessed it...Obama's term. And guess which Congress passed such cuts. Let me give you a hint: It was the same Congress who passed ACA, the law that didn't need one Republican vote in order to get passed.
You tell me not to use false equivalencies while using a false equivalency. Well, times never change.

Social Security has been systematically dismantled under the auspices of the Republican Party. You do know Bush decided to appropriate a huge chunk of money meant for Social Security to fund his idiot wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with no intention to pay back any of those massive expenses. That's just one of the more recent editions of "We want to reduce the deficit by cutting social security... please don't look at the pending bill for a decade of open warfare."
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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-04-23 14:08:56  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But there are millions of free-loading shitheads playing the system.
Citation, ***, or stop making this claim. I played nice on this earlier, but repeating the same undying, unsupportable claim is wearing thin.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-23 14:10:18  
It has long been the case that Social Security's woes are not due to lack of money coming in; it's the amount of money going out, not to beneficiaries, but to other government projects "borrowing" (read: stealing) from the SSA with no real intention of paying back. (edit: and for the record, you can blame Reagan and his cronie -- the Ayn Rand sycophant Alan Greenspan -- for this.)
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 14:22:29  
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But there are millions of free-loading shitheads playing the system.
Citation, ***, or stop making this claim. I played nice on this earlier, but repeating the same undying, unsupportable claim is wearing thin.
Last time the US government admitted that there was welfare fraud happening was back in 2002. It even took an Act of Congress to get this information public.

I would love to see the actual numbers associated with this, but the federal government is purposefully ignoring the issue at hand. Either purposefully or refusing to give information as requested.

That is the best source I have, but even if the percentage didn't change, we are still looking between 2-5 million people committing welfare fraud in the system, using the associated estimated fraud numbers reported vs. the number of people on some sort of government assistance. Are you going to deny that still?
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By EpicFantasy 2015-04-23 19:04:04  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But there are millions of free-loading shitheads playing the system.
Citation, ***, or stop making this claim. I played nice on this earlier, but repeating the same undying, unsupportable claim is wearing thin.
Last time the US government admitted that there was welfare fraud happening was back in 2002. It even took an Act of Congress to get this information public.

I would love to see the actual numbers associated with this, but the federal government is purposefully ignoring the issue at hand. Either purposefully or refusing to give information as requested.

That is the best source I have, but even if the percentage didn't change, we are still looking between 2-5 million people committing welfare fraud in the system, using the associated estimated fraud numbers reported vs. the number of people on some sort of government assistance. Are you going to deny that still?

Not only is the government ignoring the issue for political reasons, millions of people are able to do it and not get caught. So the 2-5 million would jump up around 7-8 million if not more. Just because no evidence exists does not mean it is not being done.

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I'm surprised that you weren't going to mention that, out of the recipients of Medicaid, a significant portion receives food stamps also. So, in honesty, you don't add both numbers together.
I did not realize those numbers added up. I got the 110 million on some type of government welfare from a total different source than the other numbers.


I find it hilarious how someone could state this.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
But if millions of people were doing this sort of thing, we'd know. We only have so many people living on government assistance, after all, and even 1,000,000 would be more than enough to raise huge red flags.
Get information that blows it out of the water. Then totally disregard said information.

Shiva.Onorgul said: »
If millions were free-loading shitstains like your brother, that would raise concerns. Thankfully, most recipients of welfare aren't. Idiot.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Citation, ***, or stop making this claim. I played nice on this earlier, but repeating the same undying, unsupportable claim is wearing thin.
Prove it. Oh wait, you cannot.. Unlike I did several pages ago.
http://www.usherald.com/maine-welfare-recipients-must-work-for-their-benefits/

Actually, KN and I are and have been the only ones providing information about the current subjects. All you have done is flail around contradicting yourself while making baseless claims. Quite a few names exist for people like you, but I'm sure you wouldn't understand the meaning of them.

Hell, Lordgrim has better posts than you...
 Siren.Lordgrim
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By Siren.Lordgrim 2015-04-24 04:38:40  
Siren.Lordgrim said: »
How to make better wages and jobs, Repeal free trade acts.

congressional meeting talking about how bad a deal America got out of free trade deals under republican and democratic leadership
YouTube Video Placeholder



NAFTA job loss year established 1993 = 680,000 jobs lost from America, all major TV networks and Both Political parties advertised this as being a great deal to have.

Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China act job loss year established 2000 = lead to the loss of over 2.2 million American jobs, Both parties and major networks agreed it was a great deal and passed it.

South Korean Free Trade Act jobs lost Year established 2011 = 60,000 jobs were lost from America, Major networks approved both parties approved.

Since 2001 due to free trade deals we have lost 60,000 factories in America, over that time period we lost over 4.7 million Manufacturing jobs in America.

In 1970 25% of all jobs in America were manufacturing jobs. Today there is only 9%.

In january 2001 there was 17.1 million manufacturing workers. Today that number is 12.3 million manufacturing workers in America.

Across all 50 states lost 34% of there manufacturing jobs over the past 14 years.

We are now faced with the Trans Pacific Free Trade Act that is written by corporations. Its reported to be the largest free trade act in history. Wall street, Pharmaceutical Industry and Major media companies have full knowledge of whats in the treaty. The american people and members of congress do not and have been locked out of the process.

There has been estimated jobs that could be losted to Vietnam and japan alone more then 135,000 jobs if it goes into effect thats just the tip of the iceberg.

More than manufacturing jobs to be lost in America due to TPP include the following over 3 million service center jobs;

call centers
computer programing
engineering
accounting
Medical diagnostic jobs


Free trade acts are bad. Whats more disturbing is these deals have been put in place by both the Republicans and Democrats at the behest of Corporations. Are you convinced now that they do not represent the peoples best interest ? Stop voting for Republicans and Democrats, lets reasses all these free trade acts , repeal them, and put our foot down on all these corporations and ceo's causing economic terrorism in the United States of America and bring our jobs home and rebuild this country to be even stronger to be A Better America.

Yo epic fantasy I provided a real senator who has the facts watch the video it's non fiction. Those are real jobs lost in the United States of America due to all those free trade deals that kingnobody says are good.

Notice the Senator is also not a Republican or Democrat !
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By Siren.Lordgrim 2015-04-24 04:39:31  
Let the video and message sink in. Free trade acts are bad.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-24 06:59:21  
Edited post because it was a copy of this post due to flower head's spamming.
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By Siren.Lordgrim 2015-04-24 07:58:49  
Siren.Lordgrim said: »
Siren.Lordgrim said: »
How to make better wages and jobs, Repeal free trade acts.

congressional meeting talking about how bad a deal America got out of free trade deals under republican and democratic leadership
YouTube Video Placeholder



NAFTA job loss year established 1993 = 680,000 jobs lost from America, all major TV networks and Both Political parties advertised this as being a great deal to have.

Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China act job loss year established 2000 = lead to the loss of over 2.2 million American jobs, Both parties and major networks agreed it was a great deal and passed it.

South Korean Free Trade Act jobs lost Year established 2011 = 60,000 jobs were lost from America, Major networks approved both parties approved.

Since 2001 due to free trade deals we have lost 60,000 factories in America, over that time period we lost over 4.7 million Manufacturing jobs in America.

In 1970 25% of all jobs in America were manufacturing jobs. Today there is only 9%.

In january 2001 there was 17.1 million manufacturing workers. Today that number is 12.3 million manufacturing workers in America.

Across all 50 states lost 34% of there manufacturing jobs over the past 14 years.

We are now faced with the Trans Pacific Free Trade Act that is written by corporations. Its reported to be the largest free trade act in history. Wall street, Pharmaceutical Industry and Major media companies have full knowledge of whats in the treaty. The american people and members of congress do not and have been locked out of the process.

There has been estimated jobs that could be losted to Vietnam and japan alone more then 135,000 jobs if it goes into effect thats just the tip of the iceberg.

More than manufacturing jobs to be lost in America due to TPP include the following over 3 million service center jobs;

call centers
computer programing
engineering
accounting
Medical diagnostic jobs


Free trade acts are bad. Whats more disturbing is these deals have been put in place by both the Republicans and Democrats at the behest of Corporations. Are you convinced now that they do not represent the peoples best interest ? Stop voting for Republicans and Democrats, lets reasses all these free trade acts , repeal them, and put our foot down on all these corporations and ceo's causing economic terrorism in the United States of America and bring our jobs home and rebuild this country to be even stronger to be A Better America.

Yo epic fantasy I provided a real senator who has the facts watch the video it's non fiction. Those are real jobs lost in the United States of America due to all those free trade deals that kingnobody says are good.

Notice the Senator is also not a Republican or Democrat !

watch the video children
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-24 08:08:55  
Already watched, asked for sources, poster refuses to provide them.

You have nothing.

Also, if you post that same post again, I will report you for spamming.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-24 09:14:36  
Dude, we need to ban all atm machines too, just think of all those teller jobs that were lost.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-24 09:24:19  
Reported due to spamming, also edited my responded because of the spamming.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-24 10:59:37  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Dude, we need to ban all atm machines too, just think of all those teller jobs that were lost.

Actually, if we had a banking system that let me take my money out at -any- bank the way an ATM does, even with a service charge, and if banks had better hours that weren't only "while I'm at work", I would be all for tellers over ATMs.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-04-24 11:37:54  
There are so many jobs that could be completely automated the future is pretty bleak with regards to what all this surplus labor is going to be doing. We can talk about job creation but for every job created, how many are out the door?

Alot of the old timers / boomers near retirement who are currently employed only have their jobs because of grandfathering rules. As soon as they leave, that job will fold.

Certain industries like construction will need human labor but with things like automated vehicles, factory automation and self-checkouts, the bulk of service jobs are on the chopping block or already on their way East.

On the bright side, time to specialize!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-24 11:49:14  
Which is why having a degree is so important now.

There are some jobs that still will need some sort of human intelligence associated with it, and while the best software out there may take most of the work out of it, they are still mostly not right or cannot do the job an educated or trained professional can do.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-24 12:10:25  
Quote:
On the bright side, time to specialize!

Skilled labor will always be in demand in one form or another. Machines operate under what's known as limited purview, they can only respond and act on things that are within the scope of their programming, anything outside of that either cause's an unhandled exception (aka crash) or is ignored. Where machines really come into play is they allow a skilled worker to do more then previously by automating many of the subfunctions they would otherwise do. In theory this means your workers have more time, in practice it means companies will hire fewer skilled workers to accomplish the same goal.

It will be interesting to see the social dynamics that form from this. Unskilled workers still have the power of the vote and thus can, in sufficient numbers, vote themselves entitlements even though they are not producing. Those who are producing would then be forced to provide for the entitlements of the unskilled with no way to prevent it due to their own diminishing numbers. There is likely a tipping point upon which the lifestyles of the entitled unskilled and the skilled are sufficiently similiar that there is little incentive to be skilled, and that is when a society will start the free fall collapse, Greece style.

Quote:
Which is why having a degree is so important now.

College degree's have actually become less relevant, but only because institutions have been churning so many worthless ones that everyone and their dog claims to have one. STEM and financial degree's are the only ones worth a damn outside the world of academia. Applicable work experience is king inside the technology field.
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By Phoenix.Xantavia 2015-04-24 14:45:30  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Which is why having a degree is so important now.

There are some jobs that still will need some sort of human intelligence associated with it, and while the best software out there may take most of the work out of it, they are still mostly not right or cannot do the job an educated or trained professional can do.
And getting that degree is what can get a lot of people in trouble. College is expensive, so you either graduate $50k in debt, or work shitty jobs and slowly save up so you can finally think about getting a degree in your 40's.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-04-24 14:54:22  
Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Which is why having a degree is so important now.

There are some jobs that still will need some sort of human intelligence associated with it, and while the best software out there may take most of the work out of it, they are still mostly not right or cannot do the job an educated or trained professional can do.
And getting that degree is what can get a lot of people in trouble. College is expensive, so you either graduate $50k in debt, or work shitty jobs and slowly save up so you can finally think about getting a degree in your 40's.

Actually it's like:
Get a Degree
Elect to attend state/local schools
Flood underfunded state/local systems
Crowd out poorer students
Hasten the deterioration of state/local schools.

Alot of people have jumped off the private school bandwagon, the problem is that the state/local schools aren't equipped to take in all this upsurge.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-04-24 15:15:13  
College debt wouldn't be as big of a deal if people didn't treat money as if it was going to burn their house down if they didn't get rid of it immediately. When I see people complain about having college debt years after they graduate, I look at their car(s), their house, their clothes, their furniture, and/or their gadgets. Almost always, my sympathy goes out the window.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-04-24 19:20:41  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
College debt wouldn't be as big of a deal if people didn't treat money as if it was going to burn their house down if they didn't get rid of it immediately. When I see people complain about having college debt years after they graduate, I look at their car(s), their house, their clothes, their furniture, and/or their gadgets. Almost always, my sympathy goes out the window.
Why should anyone have education debt at all?

Ok, if you attend a private school, that's on you, same as it is for primary and secondary education. But if I attend a state school (as I eventually did), why should I leave with thousands of dollars of debt?

If we're arguing that the only way to get a job doing the most menial ***that can't be handed over to robots is by having a mostly meaningless piece of paper (there's strong evidence that people do not ultimately use their degree in their careers all that much, and that applies to STEM degrees as much as arts degrees), the only sensible solution for society to make is to offer more free education. Like, say, 2 free years of community college?

Of course, if that sticks in your craw 'cause the brown dude in the White House is behind it, how about either reducing the cost of tuition such that someone working a part-time job while studying can make a good dent in their debts and/or increasing the amount of money a person can make so they can pay down their loan debts. I don't like those options, in large part because they rely on expecting people in their late teens and early twenties to make well-informed decisions about the coming 40 years, but they would improve the lot of people actually getting the education they purportedly need.

And I'm sure you understand the concept of confirmation bias. Most of the people I know who have degrees and student loan debt also have a used car with a model year no later than 2009, a phone that's 2-3 models behind the current market offering, an apartment with roommates, and the good sense to shop on sale. I'd look askance, too, if I ever saw someone complaining about debt while doing anything that implies they're spending their money frivolously. Probably the worst habit I see amongst people who've gotten a degree since 2006 is a tendency to self-medicate, which is hardly unique to that population.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-04-24 19:55:55  
Eh, my politics regarding the higher education system aren't really set in stone at this point. The whole "Let's use tax dollars to spend the problem away!" doesn't sit well with me because it hardly ever works, but clearly there's something wrong with the system as is. Reduced tuition rates make sense, but how can you force that?

What often happens is that kids with a poor grasp of money management end up paying out the wazoo for out-of-state tuition for no other reason than they want to get away from home, sometimes for degrees that are practically useless. Abolishing out-of-state tuition rates is a decent first step in theory, but you know colleges would just raise the in-state price to make up the difference anyway, screwing over the more practical students.

As for confirmation bias, yeah, I'm sure that has something to do with my view on college debt. That's probably because the ones who are smart about it aren't the ones drawing attention to themselves with their stupidity.
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