Merit Weaponskills

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Merit Weaponskills
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By kingfischer 2015-04-17 18:55:50  
(hopefully) Simple question for anyone who does Warrior.

Should I A: put all my eggs in one basket and max out a few of the merit WS or B: put 1 point into all the WS that Warrior can use?

I am definitely not a min/max kind of person and I never will have the best top tier gear for all the new endgame stuff. I mainly leveled a DD class so I could go to my LS events since SOME (see 1 person) are very vocal about how they are against melee RDM (even though it's pretty armed to the teeth).

I have my GA and GS skills maxed out and am working on Axe also in case i ever need dualwield (sword/dagger are maxed from rdm/dnc). I have max merits in STR, DEX, and VIT since they are most helpful to how I play and have 1 merit in Resolution, Upheaval, Exenterator, and Requiescat to cover all my bases for how I play now.

So this ended up longer than i anticipated and if you can get through the wall of text to answer: Thank You!

tl:dr - Merits in all WS or max out a few?
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By Pantafernando 2015-04-17 19:22:21  
Most merit ws are inferior to empy ws. I dont know how upheaval does against ukko, neither reso, but exenterator is dispensable to rudras or evisceration. Requiescat is just relevant to its non property characteristic, otherwise its dispansable to chant du cygne or savage blade.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-18 11:39:26  
Upheaval and Resolution are better then their Empy counterparts as far as raw damage goes. Unforunitly neither of them have L3 light / darkness properties so if your doing SC's then they are limited. Ukko's Fury can do light and WAR doesn't have access to a L3 GS WS outside of Scourge, though DRK can use Torcleaver.
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By kingfischer 2015-04-18 13:40:41  
I have been going through and getting all of the empy WS unlocked also. That way with GA I can self SC from Upheaval to Ukko's for the Light chain. I plan on having at least Resolution, Upheaval, and Requiescat since those 3 are the most useful (from what i gather).

Question was mainly are any of the others worthwhile for situational use or just stick with what is already there and get the empy skills when i can to replace them?

Also, Exenterator is mainly there for the instances when i dualwield daggers on RDM. I have Rudra's already and Exen just can't compare to that.
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By Chyula 2015-04-18 14:07:56  
Exenterator is for multi-step skillchains. others need 5/5 to really shine on damage and don't expect 1/5 to do amazing damage. I did 5/5 reso and the rest 1/5 just for having it.
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By Pantafernando 2015-04-18 14:25:48  
kingfischer said: »
I have been going through and getting all of the empy WS unlocked also. That way with GA I can self SC from Upheaval to Ukko's for the Light chain. I plan on having at least Resolution, Upheaval, and Requiescat since those 3 are the most useful (from what i gather).

Question was mainly are any of the others worthwhile for situational use or just stick with what is already there and get the empy skills when i can to replace them?

Also, Exenterator is mainly there for the instances when i dualwield daggers on RDM. I have Rudra's already and Exen just can't compare to that.

Stick with the ws of jobs you play.

Suposing you have all jobs, the list increase considerably. Last stand, tachi: shoha are 2 ws very important to have to its respective jobs.

Chyula said: »
Exenterator is for multi-step skillchains. others need 5/5 to really shine on damage and don't expect 1/5 to do amazing damage. I did 5/5 reso and the rest 1/5 just for having it.

Exenterators attributes arent uniques. Exenterator is fragmentation ans scission. You can have fragmentation from shark bite and scission from dancing edge, though i dont think anyone does skillchain from lv1 properties. Thf seems to have all lv2 properties, so he can just use them for the skillchain (rudra/disrtotion; shark bite/fragmentation; evisceration/gravitation; mandalic stab/fusion).
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-04-18 15:10:09  
I think I had many on war due to need of process WS... I'm not sure if that still applies since I quit over a year ago
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By Pantafernando 2015-04-18 15:34:03  
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I think I had many on war due to need of process WS... I'm not sure if that still applies since I quit over a year ago

I dont think any merited ws was a proc, be it abyssea or vw.

But all quest ws are procs, yes.
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 Asura.Celoria
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By Asura.Celoria 2015-04-18 15:52:22  
kingfischer said: »
I have been going through and getting all of the empy WS unlocked also. That way with GA I can self SC from Upheaval to Ukko's for the Light chain. I plan on having at least Resolution, Upheaval, and Requiescat since those 3 are the most useful (from what i gather).

Question was mainly are any of the others worthwhile for situational use or just stick with what is already there and get the empy skills when i can to replace them?

Also, Exenterator is mainly there for the instances when i dualwield daggers on RDM. I have Rudra's already and Exen just can't compare to that.


I have reso 5/5 and never use it over torcleaver, however I don't think war gets TC so you will probably want reso for ws. If you are drk TC will win on every level for gs ws.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-18 16:10:23  
Asura.Celoria said: »
kingfischer said: »
I have been going through and getting all of the empy WS unlocked also. That way with GA I can self SC from Upheaval to Ukko's for the Light chain. I plan on having at least Resolution, Upheaval, and Requiescat since those 3 are the most useful (from what i gather).

Question was mainly are any of the others worthwhile for situational use or just stick with what is already there and get the empy skills when i can to replace them?

Also, Exenterator is mainly there for the instances when i dualwield daggers on RDM. I have Rudra's already and Exen just can't compare to that.

I have reso 5/5 and never use it over torcleaver, however I don't think war gets TC so you will probably want reso for ws. If you are drk TC will win on every level for gs ws.

No it won't. Reso 5/5 beats TC for damage. Where TC becomes useful is if you need to make light SC's because Reso lacks such an attribute.

And before you get b1tchy,

Resolution 5/5 @1000TP (+250 moonshade)
1.11 fTP per swing, 5.5 fTP before DA/TA/QA which add 1.11fTP each.
85% STR WSC
-15% Attack

Torcleaver
5.437 fTP on first hit, 1.0 fTP on each additional hit.
80% VIT WSC

Average Damage has resolution winning easily. Then we get to Store TP requirements, Torcleaver only hits once so you need more sTP in WS and TP gear while Resolution hits 4~5 times. Now Torcleaver makes light with itself and other L3 light WS's and that SC damage will usually surpass Resolution spam in total damage, assuming your in a situation where you can consistently pop off SC's every 1000TP.

Attack is a problem for Rune Fencer, it's not a problem for Dark Knight which gets Attack Bonus VI, Last Resort, attack bonus gifts and attack from endark.
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By Asura.Celoria 2015-04-18 16:32:04  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Celoria said: »
kingfischer said: »
I have been going through and getting all of the empy WS unlocked also. That way with GA I can self SC from Upheaval to Ukko's for the Light chain. I plan on having at least Resolution, Upheaval, and Requiescat since those 3 are the most useful (from what i gather).

Question was mainly are any of the others worthwhile for situational use or just stick with what is already there and get the empy skills when i can to replace them?

Also, Exenterator is mainly there for the instances when i dualwield daggers on RDM. I have Rudra's already and Exen just can't compare to that.

I have reso 5/5 and never use it over torcleaver, however I don't think war gets TC so you will probably want reso for ws. If you are drk TC will win on every level for gs ws.

No it won't. Reso 5/5 beats TC for damage. Where TC becomes useful is if you need to make light SC's because Reso lacks such an attribute.

And before you get b1tchy,

Resolution 5/5 @1000TP (+250 moonshade)
1.11 fTP per swing, 5.5 fTP before DA/TA/QA which add 1.11fTP each.
85% STR WSC
-15% Attack

Torcleaver
5.437 fTP on first hit, 1.0 fTP on each additional hit.
80% VIT WSC

Average Damage has resolution winning easily. Then we get to Store TP requirements, Torcleaver only hits once so you need more sTP in WS and TP gear while Resolution hits 4~5 times. Now Torcleaver makes light with itself and other L3 light WS's and that SC damage will usually surpass Resolution spam in total damage, assuming your in a situation where you can consistently pop off SC's every 1000TP.

Attack is a problem for Rune Fencer, it's not a problem for Dark Knight which gets Attack Bonus VI, Last Resort, attack bonus gifts and attack from endark.


You can throw numbers on a table all day long, but until you actually do the testing and see that TC has the higher avg ws I will never buy reso winning.

At incursion 127 last night I was running 8k avg reso with 100% tp
The same incursion I ran an avg ws dmg with TC of 10k plus I got the bonus of light sc. The higher the content difficulty the more that reso falls behind, both based off the acc of a 5hit ws and the -15% attk penalty.

You people must not know how to gear TC properly. Reso will always have less attack in ws set than a properly geared TC. For every amount of attk you can gain on reso to try to beat the amount of attk you get on TC you only increase TC attk as well. That -15% attk on reso is huge, not to mention a 5 hit ws acc.

Lets give some random numbers say reso has 1600 attk in ws set

And lets use 1400 for a TC set, (which is low)

1600 attk -15% = 1360

1400>1360

Missing 1-2 hits on reso will make a massive difference in ws dmg.
Also if you are not in a situation on drk to spam 100% then you are dead or weak. The "need for more sTP because Torc is a single hit ws," is crap, you need to look at all the gear options that drk gets now. Drk can easily ws +4 hit (which is plenty enough to self skill chain on drk) and still get plenty of DA/TA/QA. Acro was a game changer for drk.

Stop giving reso perfect conditions to hit all 5 hits and thinking reso will have a higher attk.

Go to page 52 of the drk guide and look at some drk gearsets. The sTP needed isn't that big of a deal anymore.

Edit: ws dmg +% works way better on TC than reso as well. So even if you got reso on same lvl of attk and acc TC gets a much better bonus off ws dmg+% gear which again pushes TC over reso.
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By Voren 2015-04-18 17:08:22  
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.
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By Pantafernando 2015-04-18 17:18:15  
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.
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By Voren 2015-04-18 17:30:36  
Pantafernando said: »
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.

True, but again if acc is an issue you're assuming more than 1 hit of reso will land. If acc isn't an issue and you don't have cala for the aftermath and not able to self sc, then reso will win.
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By Pantafernando 2015-04-18 17:42:23  
Voren said: »
Pantafernando said: »
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.

True, but again if acc is an issue you're assuming more than 1 hit of reso will land. If acc isn't an issue and you don't have cala for the aftermath and not able to self sc, then reso will win.

I dont really like using accuracy as a condition to choosing ws because if acc is some issue that the hit rate will be really affected, its not a matter of what ws to choose, but what gear to use, what party setup (buff/debuff). Also, its relevant to say, even at capped accuracy, 2h dd still are limited to 95% hit rate, so no matter how is your accuracy, 5 ws out 100 will be dealing zero dmg, while thats unlikely to happen in a multihit ws.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-19 00:31:00  
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

The kind of acc conditions required for TC to beat Reso are indication of a far bigger issue then WS selection because you'll be missing your melee swings as well. Every DA favors reso due to it's copied fTP so it's average fTP is actually higher then I listed, I was just trying to be conservative.

Quote:
You can throw numbers on a table all day long, but until you actually do the testing and see that TC has the higher avg ws I will never buy reso winning.

I did, Reso wins period. Likely your running with poorer gear on Reso or just seeing what you want to see. Resolution was a bandwagon WS for a reason and nothing SE has done since has changed that reason. It has better mod's, better fTP and requires less Store TP then Torcleaver. The only use that Torcleaver has is chaining light, which is actually quite popular today and leads to better damage overall. Also your attack numbers aren't quite the way that works. Attack is turned into a ratio, so the exact effect of that -15% will vary from low / absolutely nothing at high cRatio values (DRK/WAR) to crippling at low cRatio values (RUN / PLD). This is why jobs like WAR and DRK can safely ignore it while jobs like RUN / PLD will get crippled by it. Reso also gets the benefit of things that copy fTP like elemental gorgets / waist and that helm (3/8 days). If SE wants TC to be better then Reso then they will need to raise TC's fTP at 1250 to 6.5~7.0 without upgrading Reso.
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By Asura.Ccl 2015-04-19 01:58:59  
With all the ws dmg +3% pieace available on skirmish augment, wouldn't that make TC better than reso now?

Maybe I'll unlazy and run number laters if no one did already.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-19 03:14:55  
Asura.Ccl said: »
With all the ws dmg +3% pieace available on skirmish augment, wouldn't that make TC better than reso now?

Maybe I'll unlazy and run number laters if no one did already.

Depends, your giving up a dusk slot so no +STR/VIT/DEX, also you'd still be using Phorcy's on the body. You could probably get it to match an optimized Reso set though total DPS would still be less due to requiring more Store TP (without counting SCs). My Crobaci+2 with DMG +24, Acc +8, WSD +10% wasn't able to beat out Reso on average but the better TC damage did lead to better SC damage which is the whole point of using TC anyway.
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By kingfischer 2015-04-19 03:41:44  
Got my answer guys. Thanks! I'll 5/5 Resolution and Upheaval since I'll hopefully be taking WAR to events and leave Req at 1/5 and Likely 4/5 Ruinator for Dualwield situations. With the way I play I'll likely never need the others and since my gear will never be top notch every bump in percentage will help.
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By Kaerin 2015-04-19 03:56:09  
Pantafernando said: »
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.

When was it changed so that more than the first two hits of a WS could process extra attacks? Was this lumped into the WS rework they did awhile ago?
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2015-04-19 04:13:32  
no, panta just doesn't know what he's talking about
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-19 07:11:57  
Kaerin said: »
Pantafernando said: »
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.

When was it changed so that more than the first two hits of a WS could process extra attacks? Was this lumped into the WS rework they did awhile ago?

No it's still the first two hits get a dice roll on DA procs and only the first hit gets a roll for QA/TA. Single hit WS's only get one roll though and the proc doesn't get any fTP bonus's.
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By Tylaar 2015-04-19 07:27:39  
Get your dirty TC/Reso talk outta ze WAR forum! :P
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By Pantafernando 2015-04-19 08:12:36  
Kaerin said: »
Pantafernando said: »
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.

When was it changed so that more than the first two hits of a WS could process extra attacks? Was this lumped into the WS rework they did awhile ago?

I used information from both wikia and bg to say that, its what i had, i can not say something diferent.

From bg, "double attack" page:

Quote:
Can Proc a maximum of 2 times per Weapon Skill.
Subject to the 8-hits per round limit.

From wikia:

Quote:
May activate during weapon skills.
On multi-hit weapon skills, Double Attack can proc on any hit of the weapon skill. Note, however, that Double Attack cannot proc to induce a weapon skill to attempt to hit more than 8 times.
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By Kaerin 2015-04-19 16:48:57  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Kaerin said: »
Pantafernando said: »
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.

When was it changed so that more than the first two hits of a WS could process extra attacks? Was this lumped into the WS rework they did awhile ago?

No it's still the first two hits get a dice roll on DA procs and only the first hit gets a roll for QA/TA. Single hit WS's only get one roll though and the proc doesn't get any fTP bonus's.

When dual wielding, does the offhand hit get QA and TA proc chances also? or still just the first hit? BC if that's true Ive been calculating windbuffet belt +1 during WS wrong since I came back.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-19 16:52:40  
Kaerin said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Kaerin said: »
Pantafernando said: »
Voren said: »
Torcleaver is a 1 hit ws which, unless it's changed, has a higher acc bonus than multi-hit ws. On higher content where acc may be an issue, torcleaver may win out against reso, but if you manage to land all 5 hits of reso, torc is going to fall behind.

On the other side, being reso 5 hits, it has also 5 chances to proc multi attack, while a single hit ws just will have one chance.

When was it changed so that more than the first two hits of a WS could process extra attacks? Was this lumped into the WS rework they did awhile ago?

No it's still the first two hits get a dice roll on DA procs and only the first hit gets a roll for QA/TA. Single hit WS's only get one roll though and the proc doesn't get any fTP bonus's.

When dual wielding, does the offhand hit get QA and TA proc chances also? or still just the first hit? BC if that's true Ive been calculating windbuffet belt +1 during WS wrong since I came back.

Only the first hit gets a TA/QA proc roll, and first two hits get DA procs. If a QA or TA proc then no other MA can proc.
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