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Minimum Wage
By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:45:50
Such an interesting thread. People arguing over things that have been summarized up time and time again. I think F Scott Fitzgerald said it best regarding the American and the proletariat.
However, to really approach the matter and get at the heart of it...simply ask:
Should the minimum wage be comparable to the cost of living?
no
By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:47:29
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...
I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)
min wage should be $0 an hour.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-22 23:49:11
Cost of living varies locale to locale so to simply blanket a no without discourse or extrapolation is intriguing.
You don't feel that the minium wage should have a relationship or be based off the cost of living in any capacity?
By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:50:48
Cost of living varies locale to locale so to simply blanket a no without discourse or extrapolation is intriguing.
You don't feel that the minium wage should have a relationship or be based off the cost of living in any capacity?
I think minimum wage should be zero dollars an hour. Or if it absolutely MUST exist for some weird reason... it needs to be dictated at the City level(or county level if unincorporated) City overriding county in which law takes precedence.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-22 23:50:49
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...
I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)
min wage should be $0 an hour.
Oh hey look.. Quick question what do you do to make money? I.e what's your title?
By Jetackuu 2015-03-22 23:52:15
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...
I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)
min wage should be $0 an hour.Matter of opinion, you're looking down on unskilled laborers, like they don't matter.
But the bold kinda explains your viewpoint, and further deliberation would be meaningless.
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Lakshmi.Zerowone
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Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-22 23:54:32
Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'.
By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:55:53
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...
I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)
min wage should be $0 an hour.
Oh hey look.. Quick question what do you do to make money? I.e what's your title?
Better answer is to give a history.(short answer= I am a student, wife works as a Housekeeper, i am married with 3 boys)
At 17 I joined the National Guard(roughly 150-200 a month) I then became a pizza delivery driver making money off of tips, Then I deployed. When I got back was still in the National Guard, drove for Pizza Hut. Deployed a Second time. When I got back I worked for several different Unarmed Security companies until I went Active Army. I left the service 3 years ago, Drove for a few transportation companies,and now I am a full time student.
By Bloodrose 2015-03-22 23:56:27
I'll hire Zackan to do every *** job under the sun, and his minimum pay grade will be 0 dollars an hour.
Oh wait, that's called slave labor.
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By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:58:42
Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'.
The difference is definition. Sure you go through 'training' on how to properly flip that burger, so by strict definition you are 'trained'.
I define 'skilled' as having a Degree of some kind.
There are plenty of jobs where a degree is not required like say a Carpenter... But thats where the the 'licensed' comes into play.. technical jobs you still need a license of some kind.
By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:59:07
I'll hire Zackan to do every *** job under the sun, and his minimum pay grade will be 0 dollars an hour.
Oh wait, that's called slave labor.
No that is called Volunteering.
By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:04:47
So you are basically proposing that minimum wage be 0 dollars an hour, in which people would have to "volunteer" to work, without a means to support their family, or themselves, and actually be forced to pay money, just to have a job.
*** BRILLIANT!
Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.
Let me secure the materials and product, the skill, the knowledge, just so I can "volunteer", for a job that is hiring for 0 dollars an hour.
By Jetackuu 2015-03-23 00:05:28
Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'. hush left shark!
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By Jetackuu 2015-03-23 00:07:09
So you are basically proposing that minimum wage be 0 dollars an hour, in which people would have to "volunteer" to work, without a means to support their family, or themselves, and actually be forced to pay money, just to have a job.
*** BRILLIANT!
Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.
Let me secure the materials and product, the skill, the knowledge, just so I can "volunteer", for a job that is hiring for 0 dollars an hour. internships?
By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:07:33
Oh, and by the way, Zackan, since you are completely in the dark about the kind of training that goes into even fast food, I don't think there is even any kind of discussion worth having about that with you.
You simply assume all they need to know is how to flip burgers. God damn that's *** stupid.
By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:07:59
Internship at least comes with perks, and for the purpose of training/experience.
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:09:44
So you are basically proposing that minimum wage be 0 dollars an hour, in which people would have to "volunteer" to work, without a means to support their family, or themselves, and actually be forced to pay money, just to have a job.
*** BRILLIANT!
Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.
Let me secure the materials and product, the skill, the knowledge, just so I can "volunteer", for a job that is hiring for 0 dollars an hour.
Wow way to discredit internships and volunteering. If you think a truck driver or a plumber or a pyschologist would ACCEPT the position for $0 dollars an you are crazy in the head.
Me saying min wage should be $0 is NOT the same as saying employers should PAY there employees $0 dollars an hour....
Capitalism.. its a crazy concept I know....
Bahamut.Omael
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-03-23 00:10:16
Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.
If they're really slaves, they could just run away.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:10:54
But you are also forgetting that employers are more than willing to pay the absolute minimum to hire people to do the same job.
Again, capitalism, a crazy concept you know absolutely *** all about.
By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:11:23
Oh, and by the way, Zackan, since you are completely in the dark about the kind of training that goes into even fast food, I don't think there is even any kind of discussion worth having about that with you.
You simply assume all they need to know is how to flip burgers. God damn that's *** stupid.
I know it is not the same as what I go through to get my Bachelor's Degree, I know it is not the same what I went through to join the Army, I know it is not what you need PAST education to be a lawyer(pass the bar exam) or be a teacher(pass the teachers credentialing)
By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:13:02
But you are also forgetting that employers are more than willing to pay the absolute minimum to hire people to do the same job.
Again, capitalism, a crazy concept you know absolutely *** all about.
Finally we agree, employers ARE willing to pay the minimum.... but it is the minimum that is artifically created. They would not pay $0 if there was no min wage, but if min wage is $1 then guess what.. they see the minimum, so they can feel justified in paying it!!!
By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:13:47
Let's see, most places require you have, or pass the ServPro exam, and have at least a valid certificate in Safety and Sanitation. Because food poisoning will *** kill someone.
You want to try that again?
By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:15:18
They can justify paying 0 dollars an hour too, you numbnut.
They can decide, regardless of the money or time spent developing your skills and education or knowledge, to be worth 0 dollars to them.
Hell, without a base rate of pay, the Military can scrap paying their soldiers.
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Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-23 00:15:25
Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'.
The difference is definition. Sure you go through 'training' on how to properly flip that burger, so by strict definition you are 'trained'.
I define 'skilled' as having a Degree of some kind.
There are plenty of jobs where a degree is not required like say a Carpenter... But thats where the the 'licensed' comes into play.. technical jobs you still need a license of some kind.
There is a difference in a chef a line cook and a burger flipper. Much like there is a difference in a craftsman, a carpenter and a construction worker.
Having a license or degree as a qualifier of explicit skill is slightly conflating things.
By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:19:07
Let's see, most places require you have, or pass the ServPro exam, and have at least a valid certificate in Safety and Sanitation. Because food poisoning will *** kill someone.
You want to try that again?
Maybe
I know during my time working with pizza joints I never heard of either of those things.
I have a friend who works as a Waiter in a different state, i will ask him about it.
Ok he said it depends on the state.. which doesnt change my argument.
to recap: I am 100% against a Federal Min Wage... if a Min Wage MUST exist it needs to be decided at the CITY level.
By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:21:01
They can justify paying 0 dollars an hour too, you numbnut.
They can decide, regardless of the money or time spent developing your skills and education or knowledge, to be worth 0 dollars to them.
Hell, without a base rate of pay, the Military can scrap paying their soldiers.
No they can not justify paying $0....
They can TRY .. but the market will not let them.. cuz noone would work for them....
By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:22:47
City level? Hahahaha No.
State level argument would be more reasonable, but guess what, there already is.
The reason a federal standard of wages exists is to make sure as many people as possible are able to make a living - to provide and support.
Most states adopt the federal and then expand on it of their own will, making their state minimum wages higher than the federal in most places.
Oh, and yes it does change your argument. Because most places require it of their servers and back of house staff. The requirements to meet those standards vary from state to state, and not all positions require them - like delivery boys. But if you are doing a delivery, chances are you need a valid driver's license in their place, or in tandem with the other certificates.
By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:25:02
If a company can justify paying 1 dollar an hour for truckers to ship the company product over long distances, away from their families and friends for days, even weeks at a time, what's stopping them from justifying them paying 0 as the minimum wage?
Nothing legally.
By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:27:45
City level? Hahahaha No.
State level argument would be more reasonable, but guess what, there already is.
The reason a federal standard of wages exists is to make sure as many people as possible are able to make a living - to provide and support.
Most states adopt the federal and then expand on it of their own will, making their state minimum wages higher than the federal in most places.
Oh, and yes it does change your argument. Because most places require it of their servers and back of house staff. The requirements to meet those standards vary from state to state, and not all positions require them - like delivery boys. But if you are doing a delivery, chances are you need a valid driver's license in their place, or in tandem with the other certificates.
I suppose you can be right on a Technicality.. they are 'papers' that 'qualify' as 'certificates/licenses' But from what I am being told, most employers pay for those tests, most classes are easy, and the tests are open book.
Yes, as a delivery driver i needed a class c license.. But thats something 'everyone' has.
My point is you get paid for what sets you apart. The harder the license/certificate required, the more you should be paid.
In a working capitalism the only people who would work for less than $5 are those or are getting something more than money out of it. Internships, some promise to a better position. Small wage jobs are meant to be jumping stones to something better.
By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:29:55
If a company can justify paying 1 dollar an hour for truckers to ship the company product over long distances, away from their families and friends for days, even weeks at a time, what's stopping them from justifying them paying 0 as the minimum wage?
Nothing legally.
Legally means nothing. The truck driver would NEVER accept $1 an hour! They would not drive for the company if at a MINIMUM they can't cover the cost of gas and food. (not to mention cost of the lease on there truck and many other things)
Point is the company can TRY to pay zero.. but they will never succeed.. the market won't let them!
omg what a surprise...
Quote: In a few weeks, Seattle’s new, highest in the country, $15 per hour minimum wage will go into effect. Like many liberal policies, it was passed by City Hall with the best of intentions. The only problem is, in the end, it may do more harm than good for many.
Private businesses, unlike government entities (which, in theory, can always raise taxes or borrow), must make more than they spend in order to pay the rent, make payroll, keep the lights on, pay their business taxes, and, heaven forbid, have some left over for the owners and investors who are taking the risk and putting in the long hours.
Earlier this month, Seattle Magazine asked, Why Are So Many Seattle Restaurants Closing Lately?:
Last month—and particularly last week— Seattle foodies were downcast as the blows kept coming: Queen Anne’s Grub closed February 15. Pioneer Square’s Little Uncle shut down February 25. Shanik’s Meeru Dhalwala announced that it will close March 21. Renée Erickson’s Boat Street Café will shutter May 30 after 17 years with her at the helm…What the #*%&$* is going on? A variety of things, probably—and a good chance there is more change to come.
The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.” Anthony Anton, president and CEO of Washington Restaurant Association, told the magazine, “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.” He estimates that restaurants usually have a budget breakdown of about 36 percent for labor, 30 percent for food costs, and 30 percent to cover other operational costs. That leaves 4 percent for a profit margin. When labor costs shoot up to say 42 percent, something has to give.
Restaurants can take actions to adjust, such as raise their prices, acquire cheaper ingredients, and cut their operating hours and labor force. However, all those actions generate reactions from the public which can still lead to lower revenues for the restaurant and, for some, the decision to close their doors.
The Washington Policy Center explains:
When prices rise consumers seek alternatives, a behavior economists call the “substitution effect,” which results in lower demand for the higher-priced product. In the case of restaurants, consumers have access to the ultimate substitution – they can stay home.
A spokesman for the Washington Restaurant Association told the Washington Policy Center, “Every [restaurant] operator I’m talking to is in panic mode, trying to figure out what the new world will look like.”
Seattle had a foretaste of the effect of the $15 minimum wage earlier this year when Prop 1, which made a $15 minimum wage for those working in parking garages and hotels near Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, took effect. A reporter asked a cleaning woman and a part-time banquet server, who work in a hotel near SEATAC, what they thought of the new law:
The cleaning woman responded, “It sounds good, but it’s not good,”
“Why?” I asked.
“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.
The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.
“What else?” I asked.
“I have to pay for parking,” she said.
I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff.
“Yes, I’ve got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less,” she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking.
The Seattle Times reported that a Clarion Hotel recently made the decision to close its full service restaurant (laying off 15 people) and let go of a night desk clerk and a maintenance worker. It also plans to raise its rates by 10 percent to offset increased labor costs.
As the April 1 deadline approaches, the residents of Seattle will have a front row seat to the effects of the $15 per hour minimum wage, but early indicators suggest it will not be as positive as City Hall intended.
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