Minimum Wage

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Minimum Wage
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-19 14:30:12  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But let me ask you this: You go to two different shoe stores, find the exact same pair of shoes these stores are selling, but Store A is selling those shoes at double the price than what Store B is selling, will you still buy those shoes at Store A out of principle?
Depends. What is the difference between the two stores? What is the absolute difference in price? Has it broached the threshold of needing to re-evaluate the purchase? Do I get better service or support from store A?
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 14:31:44  
I say give the liberals their socialism already. No use fighting it. It's their destiny.
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 14:31:56  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I mean, would it really hurt either of you to have even a tiny sliver of an open mind and realize that maybe your prejudices are wrong?

Without dithering about semantics, "prejudice" isn't really the right word. That said, I've already granted you that all employers aren't terrible. What you won't grant is that a great number are willing to exploit their workers as much as they can to save all the money for the people at the top, and because of that level of greed these protections need to be in place.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 14:33:08  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
but Store A is selling those shoes at double the price than what Store B is selling, will you still buy those shoes at Store A out of principle?

If I know store A treats its employees well and Store B doesn't, then yeah. I will.

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
what changed between yesterday and today that justifies a large increase of wages, in your mind? Nothing? Just because we should be blessed to have you here?

Nothing changed, they should have always been receiving that rate and they've been denied that by the premise of "their employer can get away with paying them as little as possible".

Then again, the very concept of what is considered a "livable wage" in this country is laughable.
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-19 14:35:37  
Example: If it takes me an hour to get a pair of shoes from store B, and ten minutes from store A, then I'm OK with buying them from store A as long as the absolute price difference doesn't trigger a threshold.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 14:39:03  
Didn't MSNBC and Obama say that the economy is doing great and unemployment is the lowest in yeas? Then what's the problem if the economy is doing so great?

Oh yeah greed...

So let's give the workers more pay, less hours, and more benefits. Should work out fine. Problem solved.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 14:41:50  
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Her exact answer, now that I actually asked her the question:
Kara said:
Depends
Given no other factors changed.
Which theoritical good/item example are you keeping factors constant for?

If for example toliet paper increases in price, the quantity demanded is not going to decrease very much (depending on price change and competitors price) because it is an inelastic good, for the most part. It is considered a necessary item in the course of daily life.

If the item is an exotic sports car, demand is likely to decrease. But if there is fantastic marketing, cultural cult following, and the market is doing well, demand could stay the same or increase.

If it is a candy bar and price increased, demand is likely to decrease unless sellers can make use of impulse buying behavior (e.g. Next to cashiers where people wait in line), marketing, etc, then demand could increase or stay constant.

The simple microeconomics theory of supply and demand is not so simple when using real data and testing.
Given the scope of the argument at hand.

You have 3 people applying for 1 job, all 3 people are equally qualified, the job itself is suitable for the one person, and only one person is needed for that job. Do you expect that the baseline price of that 1 job to increase or decrease when the 4th person applies for that 1 job?

In retrospect: You have a job that is being offered at $XX price. The nearest competitor starts looking for the exact same position filled. Both you and your competitor require the same skill set expected for this job. Do you expect that the baseline price of the job you are needing filled to increase or decrease when another competitor decides to look for a person to fill the exact same job position?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 14:44:00  
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But let me ask you this: You go to two different shoe stores, find the exact same pair of shoes these stores are selling, but Store A is selling those shoes at double the price than what Store B is selling, will you still buy those shoes at Store A out of principle?
Depends. What is the difference between the two stores? What is the absolute difference in price? Has it broached the threshold of needing to re-evaluate the purchase? Do I get better service or support from store A?
No difference in terms of quality, service, or location of the stores at hand. The price difference between the two is $50, meaning Store A is selling the shoes at $100 and Store B is selling it at $50. Both stores are empty of customers. Both stores are identical in sizes and selection. There are no discernible differences between either store, other than price.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 14:45:45  
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I mean, would it really hurt either of you to have even a tiny sliver of an open mind and realize that maybe your prejudices are wrong?

Without dithering about semantics, "prejudice" isn't really the right word. That said, I've already granted you that all employers aren't terrible. What you won't grant is that a great number are willing to exploit their workers as much as they can to save all the money for the people at the top, and because of that level of greed these protections need to be in place.
As stated before, I will grant you that some and not a "great number" of employers are willing to exploit their workers as much as they can to save all the money for the people at the top.

However, since you want to throw greed into play, what about the unions? Aren't they trying to get the most out of the companies, even if it means shutting them down, for that extra due?
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 14:49:51  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But let me ask you this: You go to two different shoe stores, find the exact same pair of shoes these stores are selling, but Store A is selling those shoes at double the price than what Store B is selling, will you still buy those shoes at Store A out of principle?
Depends. What is the difference between the two stores? What is the absolute difference in price? Has it broached the threshold of needing to re-evaluate the purchase? Do I get better service or support from store A?
No difference in terms of quality, service, or location of the stores at hand. The price difference between the two is $50, meaning Store A is selling the shoes at $100 and Store B is selling it at $50. Both stores are empty of customers. Both stores are identical in sizes and selection. There are no discernible differences between either store, other than price.

Life doesn't exist in a bubble. You've pared it down to so obvious of an answer that your situation lacks application.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 14:51:35  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
even if it means shutting them down,

There's nipping the hand that feeds you because it doesn't feed you enough and there's biting it off.

I would suggest that these unions are also are a problem. And I'm on record in the past as saying someone unions need reigned in and redirected toward their original purpose or replaced.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 14:53:04  
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But let me ask you this: You go to two different shoe stores, find the exact same pair of shoes these stores are selling, but Store A is selling those shoes at double the price than what Store B is selling, will you still buy those shoes at Store A out of principle?
Depends. What is the difference between the two stores? What is the absolute difference in price? Has it broached the threshold of needing to re-evaluate the purchase? Do I get better service or support from store A?
No difference in terms of quality, service, or location of the stores at hand. The price difference between the two is $50, meaning Store A is selling the shoes at $100 and Store B is selling it at $50. Both stores are empty of customers. Both stores are identical in sizes and selection. There are no discernible differences between either store, other than price.

Life doesn't exist in a bubble. You've pared it down to so obvious of an answer that your situation lacks application.
So, you are saying that when 2 people apply for the same job, the overqualified one should automatically be paid more because they are overqualified (and generally would be dissatisfied) over the one who would be a better fit for the job.

Besides, I called it:

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Knowing you, you will say yes just out of principle
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 14:54:52  
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
even if it means shutting them down,

There's nipping the hand that feeds you because it doesn't feed you enough and there's biting it off.

I would suggest that these unions are also are a problem. And I'm on record in the past as saying someone unions need reigned in and redirected toward their original purpose or replaced.
Fine, when they do go back to it's original purpose, then I'll keep my mouth shut on unions. But that will never happen because people who have blind hatred towards businesses will keep them employed.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 14:55:46  
If you're paying $50 extra for shoes based on principle alone, then you clearly have bigger problems than buying $100 pair of shoes.
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-19 15:02:18  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
You have 3 people applying for 1 job, all 3 people are equally qualified, the job itself is suitable for the one person, and only one person is needed for that job. Do you expect that the baseline price of that 1 job to increase or decrease when the 4th person applies for that 1 job?
It depends. You can certainly lowball a price which none of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which one of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which some of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which a majority of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which all of the applicants will accept.

If you treat the position as fungible, you should say that the baseline price is the price at which a significant proportion of the equally qualified applicants would accept.

The problem is that the position is treated as fungible, but the baseline price is often targeted at the lowest price a single qualified applicant will accept.

And that doesn't even go into the fact that people aren't necessarily fungible.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
In retrospect: You have a job that is being offered at $XX price. The nearest competitor starts looking for the exact same position filled. Both you and your competitor require the same skill set expected for this job. Do you expect that the baseline price of the job you are needing filled to increase or decrease when another competitor decides to look for a person to fill the exact same job position?
It depends. I would expect that the baseline price would not change unless the position could not be successfully filled.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 15:04:07  
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
You have 3 people applying for 1 job, all 3 people are equally qualified, the job itself is suitable for the one person, and only one person is needed for that job. Do you expect that the baseline price of that 1 job to increase or decrease when the 4th person applies for that 1 job?
It depends. You can certainly lowball a price which none of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which one of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which some of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which a majority of the applicants will accept. You can offer a price which all of the applicants will accept.

If you treat the position as fungible, you should say that the baseline price is the price at which a significant proportion of the equally qualified applicants would accept.

The problem is that the position is treated as fungible, but the baseline price is often targeted at the lowest price a single qualified applicant will accept.

And that doesn't even go into the fact that people aren't necessarily fungible.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
In retrospect: You have a job that is being offered at $XX price. The nearest competitor starts looking for the exact same position filled. Both you and your competitor require the same skill set expected for this job. Do you expect that the baseline price of the job you are needing filled to increase or decrease when another competitor decides to look for a person to fill the exact same job position?
It depends. I would expect that the baseline price would not change unless the position could not be successfully filled.
Meh, I should have known better than to ask a professional for a direct answer using a broad situation.

That's ok, I'm guilty of the exact same thing.
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By fonewear 2015-03-19 15:07:44  
Are we human or are we dancers ?
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 15:08:56  
fonewear said: »
Are we human or are we dancers ?
Who knows?

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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 15:09:03  
fonewear said: »
Are we human or are we dancers ?
Why not both?
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-19 15:12:29  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But let me ask you this: You go to two different shoe stores, find the exact same pair of shoes these stores are selling, but Store A is selling those shoes at double the price than what Store B is selling, will you still buy those shoes at Store A out of principle?
Depends. What is the difference between the two stores? What is the absolute difference in price? Has it broached the threshold of needing to re-evaluate the purchase? Do I get better service or support from store A?
No difference in terms of quality, service, or location of the stores at hand. The price difference between the two is $50, meaning Store A is selling the shoes at $100 and Store B is selling it at $50. Both stores are empty of customers. Both stores are identical in sizes and selection. There are no discernible differences between either store, other than price.
If there are absolutely no discernible differences other than price (e.g. policies, practices, community support, company policies; in other words their ethos is the exact same), then there would be no means to justify the price difference. In which case, a straightforward comparison by price would be the solution (i.e. buy it from B).

Assuming you even knew that store B was there, which is a different story.

But it kind of goes without saying that the scenario as described is highly artificial.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 15:19:27  
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
But it kind of goes without saying that the scenario as described is highly artificial.
I think that was obvious. I was trying to point out a basic principle of supply and demand >.>
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-19 15:48:16  
My feet are so big, I have no choice but to pay 150-250+ for shoes.

150 is for the shoes that last 3-4 months, 250 for the footwear that lasts 6+ years. The latter all happen to be CSA approved work boots (I won't wear runners or other 'light' footwear in kitchens anymore. And my current boots are going on 7 years now.

If anyone is now wondering what my shoe size is, it's an 18 by US standards. Same as my ring finger.
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By Phoenix.Xantavia 2015-03-19 16:06:19  
Quote:
But you aren't demanding that. You are demanding that all jobs need a wage increase by 10% without any basis of reasoning behind the increases. Your labor won't increase (in fact, you are demanding for less work at the same time, which is also a form of wage increase), your skill set isn't increasing, so, what changed between yesterday and today that justifies a large increase of wages, in your mind? Nothing? Just because we should be blessed to have you here?
So does that mean when a company has layoffs and increases the workload of those who remain, they deserve a pay increase? Because otherwise they are demanding more work for the same low rate.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 16:09:27  
Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Quote:
But you aren't demanding that. You are demanding that all jobs need a wage increase by 10% without any basis of reasoning behind the increases. Your labor won't increase (in fact, you are demanding for less work at the same time, which is also a form of wage increase), your skill set isn't increasing, so, what changed between yesterday and today that justifies a large increase of wages, in your mind? Nothing? Just because we should be blessed to have you here?
So does that mean when a company has layoffs and increases the workload of those who remain, they deserve a pay increase? Because otherwise they are demanding more work for the same low rate.
You know what else happens during layoffs? Less production.

So, do they really have an increased workload, or do they have roughly about the same?
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-19 16:20:22  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I mean, would it really hurt either of you to have even a tiny sliver of an open mind and realize that maybe your prejudices are wrong?
NO U
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 Phoenix.Xantavia
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By Phoenix.Xantavia 2015-03-19 17:49:10  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Quote:
But you aren't demanding that. You are demanding that all jobs need a wage increase by 10% without any basis of reasoning behind the increases. Your labor won't increase (in fact, you are demanding for less work at the same time, which is also a form of wage increase), your skill set isn't increasing, so, what changed between yesterday and today that justifies a large increase of wages, in your mind? Nothing? Just because we should be blessed to have you here?
So does that mean when a company has layoffs and increases the workload of those who remain, they deserve a pay increase? Because otherwise they are demanding more work for the same low rate.
You know what else happens during layoffs? Less production.

So, do they really have an increased workload, or do they have roughly about the same?
I suppose it depends on the job. I work at a theatre, and they have reduced the number of hours that we are alloted to spend on payroll. Overall attendance hasn't changed (which they base given hours on), but the number of workers have gone down. We were actually told to go to sub bare-bones staffing. We have one person selling tickets, one person at guest service, one person selling concessions, one usher, and a single manager. 5 employees to cover a 17 screen theatre. And when it comes time for the employees to take breaks, you end up shifting people around so the manager can clean the theatres. Only position that gives them freedom to ignore it (leave auditoriums dirty) if they are needed elsewhere for whatever reason.

People complaining about how there are long lines and they can't find employees when they go places? That is the result.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 19:17:26  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Meh, I should have known better than to ask a professional for a direct answer using a broad situation.

That's ok, I'm guilty of the exact same thing.

Respect for this admission, if nothing else.

I really wish we lived closer, KN, because I think we would be the kind of guys who are really good friends, but argue bitterly over drinks.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 19:18:02  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
fonewear said: »
Are we human or are we dancers ?
Why not both?

Because you haven't seen my white guy dancing.

If you had, then you'd understand.
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-03-20 01:42:13  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Abolish the minimum wage and make union membership optional.

I remember back in college I went and applied for a job. come to find out at the interview that it had mandatory participation in a union. I promptly told them I had no interest in being in part of the union and was there just to work. that didn't go over to well with the union representatives at the interview. as typical of right leaning people, I am hard working, dependable, and responsible. so within a couple weeks of working there I was asked if I would like to be management. had to decline as I would not stay there long (was going into the military after I graduated). but yea, not a big fan of forced union participation. Thankfully not all jobs have compulsory stealing from you in order for you to be able to work (though one might argue getting taxed for working is stealing, I am not going to entertain that argument).
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-20 04:21:19  
Leviathan.Protey said: »
as typical of right leaning people, I am hard working, dependable, and responsible.
Oh, how I laughed.
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