~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

This isn't what I was saying though. You are acting as if the simulator was designed specifically to see which would win if you had a 7 on Samurai roll vs an 11, and you could flip a switch for Regal COR or no; or if you had paralyze on, and what the potency was, etc. Again, it's not that a simulator cannot do this kind of thing, it most certainly can. I do remember though a number of months ago, you being asked about this very concept, and you replied saying it was more work than you were interested in putting into it, frankly I never looked into it after that.

The whole argument is not that simulations and spreadsheets are not effective, only that they should not be treated as though they are 100% correct under every possible circumstance.

Also it needs to be pointed out that even the term "spreadsheet" can be misleading in this context. If what Afania's spreadsheet is, is simply variables to plug in to a known DPS equation and spit out numbers, that's fine. In fact, that's pretty similar to what I do, only I also try to take into consideration what each thing I would be fighting has for Evasion and Defense, and adjust accordingly. It's still not perfect, but it's adequate. However, many people who have spreadsheets (this is especially a problem on the RDM and BLU threads) seem to think that simply plugging in their scoreboard numbers a handful of times and averaging them is giving them a definitive answer.

It is especially egregious when some of the items being compared have so little difference that it can sometimes be explained simply by margin of error.

Rune fencer can break 10~12k DPS on Apex Bats, which is outside of Escha zones so no STR vorseal. It does require optimal pulls and good teamwork; as well as at least BRD GEO COR buffs, but this IS a thing. And they take extra damage from piercing, not slashing.

I didn't though, I simply explained how spreadsheet works when people aren't getting the ideas right.


This is what they said:


God forbid people ask how to DD on pld forum, only to get posts from a guy to tell them they "should" not DD on PLD.

Besides, you can get far more than that if you get into the more gimmicky territory of hybrid WS.

I simply said they shouldn't worry over it. That's not the same as advocating to AVOID doing damage.

yeah, you literally said it can’t account for accuracy when it can. that’s a direct quote. as for the other things, the only thing my newer ones don’t account for is paralyze. they even have a built in roll simulation to find an average when using qultard. unless you want me to add white mage reaction times and debuff removal priorities, among other pointless ***, there is no reason to account for debilitating buffs on the players. for any dps related variables, i can and have been when i have time available

videos of it? I'm not getting 12k DPS on RUN sim nor spreadsheet. And those tools assume DDs engage full time already.

I doubt about it because if RUN is doing 12k DPS(aka trashing every other DD that does 5k in endgame parses) on scoreboard, you should be clearing VD in <2 min. something just isn't right.

12K probably involves high damage rolls and skill chains

This is admittedly somewhat cherrypicking, but then again, I expected an equally focused response showing PLD under ideal conditions being able to do 1/3 of that damage.

You could simply admit that it's possible you may have over-exagerated a little, or overlooked that one of your DD's had to turn around for a bit for spikes, or anything like that.

But it's a different thing entirely to say that's how it is if they are actually trying to go toe-to-toe.

That's not helping someone who's asking for info.

It is involving regal buffs, idris buffs, REMA bard, etc; But not including skillchains. I don't always think it's fair to include skillchains because they can be interrupted in real world scenarios.

Even with max buffs I'm not getting 12k on sim either, 8kish is max I get from spreadsheet.

In real scenerio its likely to be lower than sim.

I would still prefer a video to see exactly what happened to the scoreboard, people has the tendancy to exaggerate on forums.

And even if 12k is reachable due to certain outburst of DPS, I doubt it's a sustained thing.

I could also point out that what I said was on opinion, but that would probably come across as heresy to you that people are allowed to have differing opinions on whether or not doing a certain thing is worth it to different individuals. smh

Of course you can say your opinion if OP ask "should I DD on PLD". But he didn't.

He asked how to dd better on PLD, on a pld forum, any anwser that didn't provide info is not helping.

We don't turn around for spikes, it's not necessary when everything just melts.

I'm not convinced that my DDs are "trash", best in the world? probably not. At least meets avg standard? I believe so.

I'm not convinced that BRD doing 1/3 of real DD in actual endgame proves DDs are trash too. 1/3 of real DD is damn reasonable, IMO.

On spreadsheet or sim, most 2h DD float between 7-8k DPS, war popping MS is the exception. In real endgame, it's usually a bit lower than what sim or spreadsheet says.

1/3 of 8k is less than 3k DPS, it's a damn reasonable goal for a BRD or PLD to hit under max buffed situations. I'm not claming those jobs do something like 5k, that would be exaggerating. But sub 3k with max buffs while real DDs hitting 8k? I don't belive a BIS BRD has difficulty hitting that number.

12k wouldn't be sustained, but over 8k probably can be. That should be impossible if 8k is the max on the simulator and real-world scenarios are always less, the issue is, I cannot do this on the fly by myself, as how fast your pulls are, and how far away they are being pulled from (especially on the bats which tend to die after only 3 WS). That obviously gets messy when you're triboxing the GEO and BRD. Even triboxing it wasn't that hard to get to ~8k.

Even on VD ambu where you might be able to go ham, some people forget to reset scoreboard right as Dia lands on the main boss, which will always deflate DPS, simply because there will be alot of time attributed to the scoreboard where you weren't actually fighting. Even just a few dozen seconds make a large difference in a 3 minute fight, after all.

At any rate when I get the ability to, I will post a video.

The main reason I say so is, I have a video of me breaking 4.5k on RDM, and I was dualboxing, and pulling, and even casting out of menus, so even RDM can probably get to around 6k in ideal situations. It shouldn't really be that surprising that a 2-hander could do better.

Except 4.5k dps is within the ballpark of spreadsheet numbers, 12k without MS is not.

I totally believe a RDM can hit 4.5 or even 5.5k because that's what I've seen on paper. I'm just not getting RUN doing 12k on sim, since scoreboard or sim already removed the downtime of DDs not engaging, and it's perfectly reasonable to doubt it if sim result isn't supporting it.

There is another thing I would like addressed though, as up until this point, it has been ignored.

In what circumstance would you DPS on PLD in non DT gear, where you couldn't simply go some other job that would do it better? In bard's case, they're going to be in your party anyway, as they are buffing you. In that case it's free damage, you aren't going to be replacing the bard with some other job that could give you songs and do more damage.

In the case of PLD, it's not as straightforward. You can replace it in many of those cases, if the incoming damage was so low you only had to hold a shield and put on phalanx. After all, when you eschew all the gear advantage PLD gets for DT, and PDT/MDT II, why bother using PLD in those circumstances? If we're talking about what is best in those circumstances, RUN w/ Epeo could take less damage AND do more damage at the same time.
Given how many people have Epeo these days, why bother? It's not like it was 3 years ago where only like 4 people have it, virtually every endgame LS has like 3 or more people with Epeo.

It seems almost invariably that in each job forum, people don't want to discuss that under certain circumstances you should just be using something else rather than trying to use a sharpened spoon as a fork. The spork didn't catch on for a reason, it was unnecessary, however convenient it may be. The same could be said for PLD focusing primarily on DPS. Again, I think I've said this at least 5 times by now, CAN PLD DD? yes. Is it recommended?

Ah, but not quite. Scoreboard doesn't always stop when you have a bubble out, and that can be an issue if you're playing the DD as well as the GEO, and BRD.

I'm not sure if that's a glitch, but I encounter that fairly often.

The simulator is accurate in this regard; scoreboard, less so.

Another strike against scoreboard is, that it will definitely count pulltime, as the monster is claimed as it is being dragged back to the party, and all of this counts against you.

because we don't kick people out of the pt if pld is all they had. We're not Asura, endgame here often means we only play with 30 endgame ready people in our connection, and make things work if their job isn't meta or best choice.

We don't just go "oh RUN is a better DD tank so Im going to shout for a DD RUN even if pld from ls wants to join", it just doesn't work that way.

obviously, I'm not here to preach DD pld being the best choice for DD tanking. But damn, it's been 20 times that I said this: If someone ask for advice about how to DD better on PLD, they don't need replies like "PLD should not DD" or "DD PLD is not recommended". It's not answering his question.

Err, it was typo from my end(6am so....). "Spreadsheet" or sim doesn't count the disengage time. So if sim says RUN DPS ceiling is 7-8k engaged full time, where did that additional 4k come from? It's not a small number.

Without the video it's hard to see exactly what was going on, to give you an accurate answer if BRD and PLD can still hit 1/3 of that number under exactly the same circumstances.

But in normal endgame content, none MS DD float between 3-5k on scoreboard, 1/3 of that means 1kish, less than 2, how is it not possible for a BRD to hit that goal?

In my case it came from RUN with temper @PDIF cap with 4 Corsair rolls, (Crooked) SAM+ Chaos 11, Fighter's roll Crooked 11, Miser's 11, (all regal) using:

ItemSet 360398

Obviously with Fury/Frailty and HM(Marc) (VM) Minu5 Minu4.

Lust Cap+1 Path A
Adhemar +1 Path B
Herc Boots : 15 STR Acc/Attack 10 Triple Attack 3
Herc Hands : 15 STR Acc/Attack 15 Triple Attack 3

TP uses +1 Adhemar+1 hands(A), +1 Bonnet (A), Herc boots with 7 DEX Acc 27 TA 4. Herc Body Acc 30 TA 4, Brutal/Sherida/Lissome/Ioskeha+1 etc.

Again, regarding the buffs, I never said they weren't cherry-picked.

With the Fighters roll, using more of the Lustratio set is probably better, I'd say at least the feet are worth swapping, possibly the body. Definitely not hands though, they lose in STR and multi-attack.

So my set isn't perfect but still.

Possibly better results with Lust+1 Body Path A and Adhemar + 1 hands Path B.[also Knobkierrie]

But:

Can we take a break and enjoy this grandiloquent name?

I'm naming the next "monster rearing" that...thanks!
[possibly a slime]

From this perspective I almost entirely agree. There is one, slightly pedantic disagreement that I would make. There has to be a spot for "The buck stops here". You wouldn't allow a GEO to DD, most groups probably wouldn't accept a MNK, unless they knew for a fact that MNK had very competent gear. In my case, it's not about what people can or can't do, or even refusing to answer hypothetical questions. I prefer to give more practical advice, and if that means suggesting someone spend their time on something more efficient, or that would work in more cases; I'm going to recommend that.

If I have an LS mate that wants to come PLD, instead of saying "Yeah, but your DD set better be good!" I simply work around the fact that we have a PLD. And if they asked me honestly if they should focus on making their PLD do more damage, I would simply say, "It's more worth your time to work on a job that specializes in DPS if you're finding yourself in alot of content where DPS is needed, and you don't have that."

Does that make more sense now? I'm not being a Nazi, and saying you MUST do it a certain way, but I feel like people deserve to know if what they are doing is (this time better put) not very productive. If they live in an echo chamber where people will always agree with them and only tell them what they want to hear, they stop growing as a player.

This is why I would argue (and this is on opinion) If someone were to ask "How do I get better at DPS on GEO?" I may not answer their question at all, and simply say not to bother with DPS on GEO, or I may humor them and reply, but still suggest that they don't do that. That isn't really outside of my right to say so. The same thing is more or less true of PLD, only that it's easier to justify why a PLD shouldn't, because unlike the buffer jobs, it can be replaced. Bard's usefulness of being able to do SOME damage, is that it can't be replaced anyhow, and it already has the buffs on it anyway. It would be silly to not pull out your dagger and contribute a little more. The analogy breaks down for PLD. They are not irreplaceable.

I would advocate that player STILL spend that effort and money, only I would suggest they do so elsewhere, where it will have a greater impact over their ability to play in different situations, rather than try to make their PLD a jack of all trades. Especially when they are considering dropping hundreds of millions in order to get an extra 15% damage on a job that wasn't contributing even 1/3 what other DD's were, and had to forgo their DT gear to even do that.

In my opinion that effort would be better spent gearing out that job they "simply didn't have", that way next time I invite them I won't have to make due, because they won't be a one-trick pony.

~35k wsavg on scoreboard, lots of hits in the low 40k's, a few lower 50k's and a few in the high 20's and low 30's.

Apparently it was 39k, my friend kept the scoreboard and I had cleared it.

I don't think anyone is. We're just talking about excalibur. Rest assured if I *had* a burtgang I definitly would be using it, don't worry about that. I just have Excalibur.

Question was this: Savage blade vs CDC vs KoR with Excalibur. Not how Excalibur compares to other swords, I am fully aware of the pros and cons of the DREAM swords and what they each provide and lack. People that respond with 'Dont DPS as Pld' or 'Just go RMT gil and make a Burtgang you noob' are talking about stuff orthogonal to the discussion.

Not all of us can just pull 200m out of thin air, it took me 3 weeks to make my excalibur and now I'm out of Voidstones, so my #1 money source is gone and I'll have to resort to slower methods. Bleh.


Blu has its pros and cons, but anyone who ever claims a particular sub is better than another doesnt know the #1 motto of FFXI: "***is Situational"

A good pld should have every sub required available, thats completely orthogonal to the discussion. And no one even talked about being /war in particular except for one mention of JP farming, which is not the right time to sub blu.


If you put "Then we can talk about x" or "Now we can talk about y" in your post, especially at the end, you come across as very rude and condescending, which will make most people instantly disregard your entire point as the words of a rude person.

And to clarify because people seem to be losing their minds:

I solo a tonne of content, or duo/trio box it with a Geo and Whm + trusts.

So yeah, maximizing my damage is definitely a valid priority.

Similarly between me and the RME DD this month on Ambuscade, between the two of us I was hitting around 15~18% of the damage, and the DD most of the remaining 82~85%.

Which effectively breaks down to me speeding that fight up by a decent chunk and expediting our success. So yes, like it or not, on fights where I don't have to worry about TP spam on the monster.. I'm gonna beat it down and live my realest dream.

If a fresh new 99 pld asked me what to get first though, I'd tell them Souv+1 gear, moonbeam rings+cape, start up a world pass invite asap so they can work towards gold moogle belt, and Warder's charm+1

I would let them know that once their turtle set, enmity set, 102% SIRD set, Phalanx set, Phalanx+SIRD set, Fast Cast set, and Cure Potency sets are all complete, they will want to start working on their Hybrid DD set.

And I have all of those things and in situational degrees. So don't worry, I've got all my bases covered. My paladin has over 120 slots of gear used up in my Mog Wardrobes, I'm quite fine on every other front.