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I try to help and do so a lot, but ya you do need to be able to take failure in stride to succeed in current endgame. From failure/mistakes comes knowledge which yields success, etc.


For question 1) You can't fight human nature, though you do have some modicum of control over which behavior you try to promote but history has shown that is at best, hit or miss.

For question 2) The game has tons of content. Most posters here focus on the end game not because they did every other thing the game has to offer (though some have), but because it's the most attractive because it's seen as some sort of status thing and social thing and it's new and has inherit challenge. The game already has multiple difficulty levels in the same content for a lot of it and there's tons of old, much easier, content out there so I don't think anything has to be done really. One thing I like about FFXI is it is up to the community to often both figure stuff out, as well as train new players. However, if SE was going to help these people then tutorials is the common answer. Records of Eminence helps with all that I think. Basically tho I don't think anything needs done really.

I just was venting a bit that getting people to pay attention and react, even good players, can be frustrating. Sometimes I see new players even respond better because old players get jaded and think they don't have to try b/c their gear will pull them through or because they underestimate the content they've won so many times, not even that they don't know what to do or can't do it they just get that whole familiarity breeds carelessness thing going on (and sometimes it's just straight up them being lazy or distracted). None of this is meant to describe anyone or stereotype any group of players, in fact its intention is the opposite, to show that no matter what group you yourself identify with, sometimes it just comes down to simple things like paying attention and reacting and reading the log and knowing what is going on. Both in following and leading aeonic clears, but especially in leading them, that frustration is the biggest hurdle and it even effects things like omen. You have to also keep in mind some play FFXI for entirely different reasons than others so what they expect to and hope to get out of it is also entirely different. Some just want something to do while they watch youtube videos, chat with friends, and share experiences and they want the difficulty and engagement requirements to be in line with that. Others want to pour their full attention into it and want a dopamine rush after doing something hard. There's really no way to reconcile the different groups of players than keep content varied and with differing levels of difficulty and try to make it a world with something for everyone. That means there's less content some are interested in though. Some ppl aren't touching omen. Other people hate mog gardens. Can't win over everyone with everything.

The problem isnt just the HP scaling, but the way SE goes about it and the limitations on jobs / effects.

Most fights these days rely on SC-MB. You really only need two melee, with the rate players can gain TP in 2017. Bringing extra melee just means they cant use their TP cause they'll either be interrupting the SC, or preventing the MB from landing. Yet, the mobs HP will still scale up accordingly, even though these extra melee wont be performing to their max capability.

SE nerfed repeated nukes a while back, so the first two nukes do full damage, then the next one does 70%, and the follow ups deal 40%. Once again, these additional mages arent able to perform at their max capability, but the HP will still scale as such. Not to mention that this nerf cmostly pisses all over the -ja spell line and its cumulative spell boost.


The other problem with the scaling is the player:skill effect. Not every group has 18 Jordans/Gretkzkys/Crosbys/Bradys, as much as you guys would like to believe you do. You've probably got your elite 3-4 in your group, then another 3-4 great players, then another 4-6 good players, then the rest is probably filled with returnees who want that nostalgic feeling but arent kept up to date. XI doesnt scale based on the quality of the group, just numbers, and as such, its always been more beneficial to go with the minimum party required.

Repeated nukes aren't really nerfed anymore with Rayke around. If anything it just makes more players want to bring the cookie cutter RUN SCH BLM BLM GEO COR as the base since it requires less aoe heals and can Revit/RD Rayke and Gambits back.

I also 100% agree with the Jordan/Gretkzkys analogy. Isn't every end game ls made up of 8 real players and 10 mules that get repped with whatever returnee decided to show up for that day?

That still forces someone on RUN, and a couple posts ago there was discussion about how GEO >>> all support classes, so it ties in to forcing people on to specific jobs.

The effects of HP scaling are rarely felt after you get about 8 ppl who are geared and know the content, it's not like when aeonics started and ppl were barely beating the clock, I've always felt the effects were overexagerated anyway. And what's the only alternative, just go back to throw more ppl at it if you can't win? That's not any better that's worse and what hp scaling in part addressed. You could argue hp scaling should be numerically adjusted but most people don't even know the actual values adding more people brings anyway so it's like ppl just don't like the idea despite the fact what it fixed was a good thing. Also you can still TP burn, with no skillchains and it is effective. Having skillchains just makes small man groups more viable but in a way that at least takes some degree of coordination.


No, Mochi uses 0-2 mules per fight, most on the zero mark. Sometimes an idris geo mule or cor mule steps in, a few times a whm mule or two for melee setups. Elak too doesn't by default use mules considered it a last resort fillin outside a few players and even they didn't multibox or use a mule most the time. I can't speak for others but that's my experience.

We run with 2-3 dual boxed typically, but outside of one I can think of, most times its someone logging on a person with a RL conflict and we'd rather get a win once if on an aeonic clear rather than give up a night.

Of course there are shells that are run from one room. Most aren't. I think a lot of the straw man arguments that get thrown out there ("this is a game, not a job" "half your shell is mules" "so-and-so bought all their wins" "I have a real life") bubble up from frustration with bad shell leadership. It takes a hell of a lot to keep a top endgame shell running these days, and must people don't have it in them. I don't. But when you're languishing in a crappy shell with low turnout and poor leadership, it's easy to lash out at the "haves". Like Verda, I really don't blame the reaction...smaller servers means the top players are concentrating in clumps and that leadership isn't spread out like years ago.

Basically when the 1st aeonic clears happened death sets weren't fully explored yet. Helix had to do quite a bit of work and they get proportinally weaker the more people you add.

Nowadays there really is not much reason to limit aeonic clears to anything with peoples improved gears.

My experience is closer to Cele's where RL pops in and players have to be dual boxed for clears, by that point you're just a mule to me as more often than not you are being dual boxed again in the future. Hence why I say its generally 8 players as a core; with the rest just being interchangeable cogs in a machine. Mule or dual boxed player, still ends up being the same amount of real players.

To the two LSs mentioned that run with minimal mules/dual boxes, must be heaven and loads of fun.

If HP @6 = 1,000,000 (166,666HP per person)
HP @8 = 1,333,333
HP @12 = 2,000,000 (50% increase from 8)
HP @18 = 3,000,000 (125% increase from 8)

Yeah HP is most certainly "felt" past 8. It's "felt" on anything past 3.

It's not that our "gear" is better, it's that mechanics are more widely known and people are more comfortable fighting them, not to mention the AGI evasion nerf. Having more people just means it often takes longer but is still beatable.

When a wipe or Benediction occurs at 1%, then you look at parse and see a dps hovering at 4-8%, its definitely felt. The AOE nerf also helped a lot of things.

Actually most people do know. Its literally the most basic formula possible: max HP / 18 * # of players.

Thats how it scales, its been checked through various content that scales and all the numbers are similar.

Granted, and for people just starting it can be a problem. But then you have you either lower the numbers, or remove it, both of which start to encourage just throw more ppl at it strats.


Thank you for the numbers, I agree and actually am trying to say that it takes longer but is still beatable, I just don't think the time added is much especially with only a few players being added. Between 6 man and 18 man in your example is ~20 capped deaths of difference. 3 BLM even doing capped death just 2x a min that'd only add 3.5 mins to a fight and that's adding 12 people with no benefit. For people starting out or don't have such a core, then ya it's a bigger problem. That works out to a 3 melee doing about 3,300 dps each too. Maybe "barely felt" is exaggerating a bit, but I just don't see it as much of a big deal especially with only 1-2 more people unless you're already fighting the clock as is or the mob is just so dangerous that the longer you expose yourself the more exponentially risk goes up. I do think there might be more than just hp scaling going on though, like other stats too as this is anecdotal but it seems you see less capped deaths even from the core blm as you add more people.

Anyway, that's my two cents. The way mochi does it, if you actively contribute you can come along to most alliance stuff if there's room, but if we are wary of what you could add to a fight for a few fights, like Albumen, then we ask you to improve first.

Sometimes it's easier to get mules to do what you need than people and it's hard to identify anything as heaven and be taken seriously but ya I do have a lot of fun :) I actually didn't know using mules was that common elsewhere.


Define most people, because it's rarely spoken of in that context or used to gauge and judge party sizes or what can or can't work and most people I've ever asked said, idk, and that's players posting here. There's a lot of *** flung around ffxiah without much to back it up. Providing real numbers lets you say things like well, adding 12 people would only add less than 3.5 mins to a fight. Given that people that post here are usually more informed than general players in ffxi, I can't help but feel your "most people do know" bit is just flat out false because if it weren't the case that most people don't know, it'd be spoken of in context rather than general sweeping statements as it always is both here and in game. I'd buy "a few people know" or even that it was published and not many people looked it up, but not that "most people do know". It's certainly the first I've seen it and it's not for lack of asking or bringing it up. The most I've seen is basic tests for a few mobs.

The amount of HP added isn't what makes a fight difficult really, its the extra time involved having to make up for the extra damage needed when someone lags behind. Albumen/Vini are perfect examples, every second of that horde/break/sleepga matters, would one really want to add 2-3 min to that fight carrying someone?

I think there are diminishing returns once someone is adding more than a minute to a fight when really with more players it should be taking less time, assuming everyone was properly geared and paying attention.

There are days when things just melt and then there are others where things just take longer than they ever should have, the only difference in those runs, are the interchangeable cogs.

Real numbers? How much more of real numbers do you need than the formula provided?
(Base Mob HP) / 18 * (number of players)

Are you unsatisfied with that, and you need proof of where those numbers came from? Go dig that up yourself, I didnt keep links to specific posts. The only person here who seems to be doubting that formula is you, so the burden of proof is on you to disprove it.


Adding X people shouldnt cause the fight to take longer. If it was scaled properly, it should take the same amount of time. But you more or less just confirmed it doesnt, and its tied to some of the reasons I already said:
1-player:skill isnt factored in. Adding your bench players wont raise your DPS to the same rate that mob HP is scaled up.
2-Limitations on DPS ie: via holding TP for SC's or dealing with cumulative magic nerf.

No matter how you slice or dice it, adding extra players acts as punishment to the group instead of being beneficial. With the state of the game as it is (no, I wont use the word dying), punishing larger groups is the last thing you'd think they'd want to do.

Yeah, but I don't think they really cared about punishing large groups. I think they were probably more concerned about 2 things than that-

1. Just throwing bodies at things without any finesse (was happening more prior to Escha/Reisen than is now)

2. Merc groups (still happening, but hear me out on this one). The idea would be that by adding HP per participant, "dead weight" participants such as clients of merc groups would hurt the overall effort, possibly to the point of failure. It didn't work, obviously, but I do believe they wanted to do something to reduce the mercenary trend.

Mercenary trend didn't start until after they introduced HP scaling. HP scaling wasn't meant to make things harder but to make it easier on smaller groups. Originally Delve NM's had large HP pools, Tojil at 1,200,000 for example. People would use 18 people in large alliances to beat him with rotating BRD's and COR's. Groups on smaller servers complained that it was too difficult to find the the exact right people / jobs to fill an entire alliance and SE's response was to make the HP scale down to 3 with 1 person being worth 1/18 the total HP. This absolutely killed large man content because there are several things one can do at 6 to exploit this reduction. So Tojil @6 became 400,000HP instead of the 1,200,000 that 18 man had to deal with. The best players split off and formed their out little groups to clear content and anyone not picked was left out in the cold.

Instead SE should of made the scaling a lot less severe with 6 man having half the HP instead of 1/3rd and absoutely no reduction under 6. Would of provided a balance between hyper optimized 6 man groups and less optimized more generic 18 man alliances.

Those days were fun. That was pretty much the most recent time I was heavily involved in deeply planned end-game content runs. It was entertaining watching a BRD/COR rotation work in a full alliance against a boss that hadn't been entirely figured out (at least by my group).

However, I am not at all a nostalgia chaser or 75-cap mourner; but after taking some extended time off, a lot of major trends changed that have made it difficult to rehabilitate myself into relevant/useful content.

Seriously?

People were mercing stuff waaaaaaaaaay back when. Operation Desert Swarm merc runs?

What. Mercenary stuff is as old as endgame is.

Large endgame LSes weren't supported be generous donations.

I like how y'all nitpicked the one specific part of the post that wasn't even the point that people cried about mobs having too much HP and being too hard that only 18 could beat it so they made them scale after...because that part was the most important part in the never ending struggle to be right on the internet!

We all know paying people for items goes well beyond this. But they didn't introduce the hp scaling until Delve because it was "too hard" and "not fair," that only the good people could actually beat the mob with less than alliance. Dumbing down content in MMOs is inevitable especially now that people cringe at the thought of having to put effort into winning...err I mean....GO BALANCE!

They introduced scaling to the dropping server populations and people complained that they couldnt find 18 people to beat Delve.

But sure, think it had to do with scrubs whining cause it was "too hard" and "not fair"

except good groups didn't need anything near an alliance, i beat all 3 of them without beads 9boxing before the hp scaling

with beads and top notch players they probably could've been cleared with 6 or 7

it wasn't a patch mandated by the competent end of things, it was to make delve accessible to 80% of the players instead of 15%

and they've been doing this ***forever, it's not any different than them giving new gear with massively increased stats or a colossal acc buff, it's their way of making sure that everyone can do all content(at the expense of large groups, in this case)

And thats bad?

Hmm, I don't think you got my meaning from my post because that wasn't what I was saying at all, the context meant that it's good to have numbers and I was saying they're never supplied when this discussion comes up. (which it has, a lot, it's a popular topic).

I'll be honest, crap has been merc'ed for almost as long as I can remember. Hell, I remember an all BLM LS on pandemonium (where I grew up) called Kaboom that merced divine might in one volley when that was possible. And of course KS30 fights.

As for "modern" content, we personally have a zero merc policy in our shell, for no other reason than philosophy. So I can't fairly comment on that. I do appreciate the perspective of Delve being part of the reason for HP scaling- in 11 years I've taken one big break- 9 months when SoA came out. So I missed most of the growing pains that came with Delves introduction.

Exactly this. Black Belt items, Sky/Sea drops, Abjurations, HNM items, Salvage drops... if a member of an HNMLS didn't want/need it for a main or or secondary acct (if acct was used often for LS runs) then it was for sale.

Yeah it was usually the big HNMLS's doing stuff to make money. Nowadays it's everyone and their mules mercing low level Escha NM's and whatever else they can do. It's fine to have it as an option but it shouldn't of taken over the games economy like it has.

SE had quite a hand in that themselves imo. They nerfed multiple methods to make gil to combat botting or exploitation, such as fishing. They made them irrelevant, such as selling medicines and food through the curio moogles, or the jug pet NPC.

Making gil nowadays is easy, sure. The methods are just less diverse, and mercing is probably the best time/effort to reward ratio besides getting lucky on an HQ synth.

For people who had the foresight to chose a profitable craft.