Sorry have been away from my comp.
As Braden has said there are some that benefit from passing the 2K mark. However, more then just the five stated do benefit from holding TP. Stardiver/Shun/Ten/Upheav/CR/Entropy/Reso/Shoha are just a few that pop into my head. It is even shown to be effective on Braden's new DRG sheets. This type of testing was even done on the War forums awhile back (Savagery/WC testing) and on the NIN forums (Of which I discussed Metsu vs Shun Spam for zergs...different topic but the was more about the TP usage).
All my testing is either done through Parse and DPS sheets that I have pulled and tweaked myself. They are a little out of date now due to not updating the armor and augments, but the core of the testing is still the same.
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Let me clear up what you must of meant, not what you are actually doing. WSing at exactly 1250 will still benefit some WS' (I say some because you implied almost all WS in your original comment). The chances of you going over this, and significantly with 2handed jobs is very high, actually losing dmg than just firing off a WS as soon as the opportunity permits. Even worse, the guarantee for this 1250 typically works better with single hit WS, not multi-hit, though possible.
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
At least according to the spreadsheet anyways.
I am curious about which spreadsheet you are talking about? Can you link it or tell me where to find the one you are using? I cannot comment meaningfully without more information.
Not sure where the one I was using for THF went, but here's one for ninja.
https://1drv.ms/x/s!AizBLB9rL0FFgU7-CdGlgycF6v_9
Link is borked :(
This will probably work
Or there's always this:
Heh, if I prefix it with http.., FFXIAH add's in html for the link inside the code window.
I got the real link from quoting his post and copying from there.
Or there's always this:
Code
1drv.ms/x/s!AizBLB9rL0FFgU7-CdGlgycF6v_9
Heh, if I prefix it with http.., FFXIAH add's in html for the link inside the code window.
I got the real link from quoting his post and copying from there.
[+]
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Let me clear up what you must of meant, not what you are actually doing. WSing at exactly 1250 will still benefit some WS' (I say some because you implied almost all WS in your original comment). The chances of you going over this, and significantly with 2handed jobs is very high, actually losing dmg than just firing off a WS as soon as the opportunity permits. Even worse, the guarantee for this 1250 typically works better with single hit WS, not multi-hit, though possible.
Sorry, should have been clear on that. I did not mean ALL WS's. WS's with high tp scaling and fTP transferring across all hits are the ones that benefit.
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Let me clear up what you must of meant, not what you are actually doing. WSing at exactly 1250 will still benefit some WS' (I say some because you implied almost all WS in your original comment). The chances of you going over this, and significantly with 2handed jobs is very high, actually losing dmg than just firing off a WS as soon as the opportunity permits. Even worse, the guarantee for this 1250 typically works better with single hit WS, not multi-hit, though possible.
My assertion about TP Bonus favoring earlier WS usage does apply to all weaponskills unless there are WS out there that have steeper scaling in the 2000-3000 range versus the 1000-2000 range. As far as I know those don't exist. Aeonics add 500 TP Bonus, Nightfyre's comment is assertion is true as well. That doesn't mean that 1000 is the ideal WS amount with any amount of TP Bonus. Questions like those aren't easy to answer and thus we rely on spreadsheets. The THF, NIN, and RUN spreadsheets I have used all indicate that with just Aeonic and Moonshade earring, you are better off using Rudra's/Ten/Resolution immediately instead of holding off. The only exception to this might be if you're closing a skillchain. The spreadsheets aren't capable of modeling this yet though, and it's also rare that you're solo DPS and have the luxury of doing this.
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Let me clear up what you must of meant, not what you are actually doing. WSing at exactly 1250 will still benefit some WS' (I say some because you implied almost all WS in your original comment). The chances of you going over this, and significantly with 2handed jobs is very high, actually losing dmg than just firing off a WS as soon as the opportunity permits. Even worse, the guarantee for this 1250 typically works better with single hit WS, not multi-hit, though possible.
My assertion about TP Bonus favoring earlier WS usage does apply to all weaponskills unless there are WS out there that have steeper scaling in the 2000-3000 range versus the 1000-2000 range. As far as I know those don't exist. Aeonics add 500 TP Bonus, Nightfyre's comment is assertion is true as well. That doesn't mean that 1000 is the ideal WS amount with any amount of TP Bonus. Questions like those aren't easy to answer and thus we rely on spreadsheets. The THF, NIN, and RUN spreadsheets I have used all indicate that with just Aeonic and Moonshade earring, you are better off using Rudra's/Ten/Resolution immediately instead of holding off. The only exception to this might be if you're closing a skillchain. The spreadsheets aren't capable of modeling this yet though, and it's also rare that you're solo DPS and have the luxury of doing this.
You are correct. To answer some of your thoughts though, there is in fact some WS that actually do have best FTP at 3k (not saying that is the best time to WS).
Checking Stardiver right now:
- Trishula+Moonshade is ALWAYS strongest when minimum TP for WS is set to 1000.
- Ryunohige+Moonshade seems to be able to gain about a 2-4% DPS increase by saving up to 2000-2200 (depending on buffs), then rapidly drops off soon after that. With Crystalline Blessing, 1500-1700 is ideal.
- Gungnir+Moonshade has a 0.5% margin regardless of where you hold, but rapidly drops off soon after 2200. End range lowers to about 1750ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Rhongomiant+Moonshade can gain about 5%-ish extra damage by holding out to the 2200 range, also drops off by 2200. Ideal range drops to about 1700-1800ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Warcry obviously demands you spam at 1000 no matter what. If you know anyone without 5/5 in Savagery, shame on them.
- Trishula+Moonshade is ALWAYS strongest when minimum TP for WS is set to 1000.
- Ryunohige+Moonshade seems to be able to gain about a 2-4% DPS increase by saving up to 2000-2200 (depending on buffs), then rapidly drops off soon after that. With Crystalline Blessing, 1500-1700 is ideal.
- Gungnir+Moonshade has a 0.5% margin regardless of where you hold, but rapidly drops off soon after 2200. End range lowers to about 1750ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Rhongomiant+Moonshade can gain about 5%-ish extra damage by holding out to the 2200 range, also drops off by 2200. Ideal range drops to about 1700-1800ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Warcry obviously demands you spam at 1000 no matter what. If you know anyone without 5/5 in Savagery, shame on them.
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Sylph.Braden said: »
Checking Stardiver right now:
- Trishula+Moonshade is ALWAYS strongest when minimum TP for WS is set to 1000.
- Ryunohige+Moonshade seems to be able to gain about a 2-4% DPS increase by saving up to 2000-2200 (depending on buffs), then rapidly drops off soon after that. With Crystalline Blessing, 1500-1700 is ideal.
- Gungnir+Moonshade has a 0.5% margin regardless of where you hold, but rapidly drops off soon after 2200. End range lowers to about 1750ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Rhongomiant+Moonshade can gain about 5%-ish extra damage by holding out to the 2200 range, also drops off by 2200. Ideal range drops to about 1700-1800ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Warcry obviously demands you spam at 1000 no matter what. If you know anyone without 5/5 in Savagery, shame on them.
- Trishula+Moonshade is ALWAYS strongest when minimum TP for WS is set to 1000.
- Ryunohige+Moonshade seems to be able to gain about a 2-4% DPS increase by saving up to 2000-2200 (depending on buffs), then rapidly drops off soon after that. With Crystalline Blessing, 1500-1700 is ideal.
- Gungnir+Moonshade has a 0.5% margin regardless of where you hold, but rapidly drops off soon after 2200. End range lowers to about 1750ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Rhongomiant+Moonshade can gain about 5%-ish extra damage by holding out to the 2200 range, also drops off by 2200. Ideal range drops to about 1700-1800ish with Crystalline Blessing.
- Warcry obviously demands you spam at 1000 no matter what. If you know anyone without 5/5 in Savagery, shame on them.
It's nice to see dedicated DD statistics with a SMN buff incorporated so heavily.
Bismarck.Gippali said: »
nd on the NIN forums (Of which I discussed Metsu vs Shun Spam for zergs...different topic but the was more about the TP usage).
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Let me clear up what you must of meant, not what you are actually doing. WSing at exactly 1250 will still benefit some WS' (I say some because you implied almost all WS in your original comment). The chances of you going over this, and significantly with 2handed jobs is very high, actually losing dmg than just firing off a WS as soon as the opportunity permits. Even worse, the guarantee for this 1250 typically works better with single hit WS, not multi-hit, though possible.
My assertion about TP Bonus favoring earlier WS usage does apply to all weaponskills unless there are WS out there that have steeper scaling in the 2000-3000 range versus the 1000-2000 range. As far as I know those don't exist. Aeonics add 500 TP Bonus, Nightfyre's comment is assertion is true as well. That doesn't mean that 1000 is the ideal WS amount with any amount of TP Bonus. Questions like those aren't easy to answer and thus we rely on spreadsheets. The THF, NIN, and RUN spreadsheets I have used all indicate that with just Aeonic and Moonshade earring, you are better off using Rudra's/Ten/Resolution immediately instead of holding off. The only exception to this might be if you're closing a skillchain. The spreadsheets aren't capable of modeling this yet though, and it's also rare that you're solo DPS and have the luxury of doing this.
You are correct. To answer some of your thoughts though, there is in fact some WS that actually do have best FTP at 3k (not saying that is the best time to WS).
Which weaponskills?
Go to BGwiki and look up each WS. You have access to the same tools I do. Off the top of my head for example, Cross Reaper
Btw just in case it was missed. I do agree with the majority of WS with aeonics being spammed at 1k. I was simply responding that there are high FTP mods at 3k on some WS that are more than 3x the ftp at 1k.
Btw just in case it was missed. I do agree with the majority of WS with aeonics being spammed at 1k. I was simply responding that there are high FTP mods at 3k on some WS that are more than 3x the ftp at 1k.
There are times that call for JFWI- now is not one of them.
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Which weaponskills?
Cross Reaper is like that. 2.0 at 1k, 4.0 at 2k and 7.0 at 3k. It's in a unique position because you're likely on DRK if you are using that, and Consume Mana is just super amazing on single hit high ftp ws. You could probably make that argument for Torcleaver if you are planning to use Consume Mana also.
Leaden Salute has 4.0 at 1k, 6.7 at 2k and 10 at 3k. Magical WS are easily gamed into situations where you want to close a chain with them, resulting in exceptionally powerful chains. Trueflight has an even +3ftp at each 1k interval, which means there is actually a better argument for it to be used at 3k tp over Leaden, but magical WS are tricky.
Upheaval is the best WS I can think of where this principal might work that you actually use. Upheaval is 1.0 at 1k, 3.5 at 2k and 6.5 at 3k.
If you wanted to get into WS you aren't using anyway, Raging fists is 1.0 at 1k, 4.6 at 2k and 9.0 at 3k. Impulse Drive is 1.0 at 1k, 3.0 at 2k and 5.5 at 3k.
Now that I am thinking of that, Aeolian Edge has more aggressive fpt scaling from 2k-3k than 1k-2k, but 3x at 1k is still superior.
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Which weaponskills?
Cross Reaper is like that. 2.0 at 1k, 4.0 at 2k and 7.0 at 3k. It's in a unique position because you're likely on DRK if you are using that, and Consume Mana is just super amazing on single hit high ftp ws. You could probably make that argument for Torcleaver if you are planning to use Consume Mana also.
Leaden Salute has 4.0 at 1k, 6.7 at 2k and 10 at 3k. Magical WS are easily gamed into situations where you want to close a chain with them, resulting in exceptionally powerful chains. Trueflight has an even +3ftp at each 1k interval, which means there is actually a better argument for it to be used at 3k tp over Leaden, but magical WS are tricky.
Upheaval is the best WS I can think of where this principal might work that you actually use. Upheaval is 1.0 at 1k, 3.5 at 2k and 6.5 at 3k.
If you wanted to get into WS you aren't using anyway, Raging fists is 1.0 at 1k, 4.6 at 2k and 9.0 at 3k. Impulse Drive is 1.0 at 1k, 3.0 at 2k and 5.5 at 3k.
Now that I am thinking of that, Aeolian Edge has more aggressive fpt scaling from 2k-3k than 1k-2k, but 3x at 1k is still superior.
Suddenly, the TP scaling doesn't look nearly as attractive, and this is even more true if using mythic or significant multi-attack.
While those are WS that certainly lose less when going over ~2k effective TP, they still aren't actually twice or three times as powerful at 2k and 3k (aside from Impulse Drive, which has little applicability). Relative to a 1k Cross Reaper, a 2k is a bit less than 1.67x stronger and a 3k is less than 2.67x. Skillchaining possibilities aside, if you didn't gain a little from reduced post-WS JA delay, it would certainly be worse to over TP past even 1k.
Odin.Geriond said: »
Almost all of those weaponskills are multiple hits, meaning your values for fTP are misleading. For example, counting the additional hits, Cross Reaper is 3>5>8, and Upheaval is 4>6.5>9.5.
Suddenly, the TP scaling doesn't look nearly as attractive, and this is even more true if using mythic or significant multi-attack.
Suddenly, the TP scaling doesn't look nearly as attractive, and this is even more true if using mythic or significant multi-attack.
You seem to misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that you use any of those WS at 3k tp, I think that entire argument is dumb because it varies based on situation. All I am doing is listing WS with greater ftp scaling between 2k and 3k. I specifically state this when talking about Aeolian Edge. I did include plausible reasons to use them at 3k tp, but that isn't an endorsement.
In regards to Upheaval, I state the the principal might work because WAR has such a massive amount of DA and STP from gear that, depending on procs and buffs, you could perhaps gain over 1k tp faster than you might recover from two forced waits after ws. You also aren't getting much out of spamming a WS on Great Axe, so chances are better you are closing a multistep skillchain with it.
Quote:
Log in during the curation of the campaign and receive a special in-game item!
Event Period
Friday, November 11 at 12:00 a.m. (PST) to Monday, November 21 at 6:59 a.m.
Special Gift
Characters who log in during the campaign period will receive a silver mog pell, which can be traded for a vide variety of special items. This item will be automatically placed in your inventory, so be sure to make some room.
* Characters are only eligible for one pell during this campaign.
Items Available for Exchange
Trade your silver mog pell to a festive moogle to receive one of the following items.
* Only characters for whom 14 days or more have elapsed since character creation are eligible to exchange pells for items.
* Festival moogles can be found in the following locations.
Port San d'Oria (J-9) / Windurst Walls (C-14) / Port Bastok (J-13)
60 Beastmen's Seals / 60 Kindred's Seals / 60 Kindred's Crests / 60 High Kindred's Crests / 60 Sacred Kindred's Crests
Rolanberry Delightaru / Harvest Pastry / Cherry Tree / Far East Hearth / Pot of Wards / White Clematis / Pink Clematis / Birch Tree
Cichol's Mantle / Segomo's Mantle / Alaunus's Cape / Taranus's Cape / Sucellos's Cape / Toutatis's Cape / Rudianos's Mantle / Ankou's Mantle / Artio's Mantle / Intarabus's Cape / Belenus's Cape / Smertrios's Mantle / Andartia's Mantle / Brigantia's Mantle / Camprestres's Cape / Rosmerta's Cape / Camulus's Mantle / Visucius's Mantle / Senuna's Mantle / Legh's Cape / Nantosuelta's Cape / Ogma's Cape
10 Abdhaljs Thread / 10 Abdhaljs Dust / 5 Abdhaljs Sap / 3 Abdhaljs Dye / 2 Abdhaljs Seals / 1 Abdhaljs Needles
Ambuscade Voucher: Head / Ambuscade Voucher: Body / Ambuscade Voucher: Hands / Ambuscade Voucher: Legs / Ambuscade Voucher: Feet
Event Period
Friday, November 11 at 12:00 a.m. (PST) to Monday, November 21 at 6:59 a.m.
Special Gift
Characters who log in during the campaign period will receive a silver mog pell, which can be traded for a vide variety of special items. This item will be automatically placed in your inventory, so be sure to make some room.
* Characters are only eligible for one pell during this campaign.
Items Available for Exchange
Trade your silver mog pell to a festive moogle to receive one of the following items.
* Only characters for whom 14 days or more have elapsed since character creation are eligible to exchange pells for items.
* Festival moogles can be found in the following locations.
Port San d'Oria (J-9) / Windurst Walls (C-14) / Port Bastok (J-13)
60 Beastmen's Seals / 60 Kindred's Seals / 60 Kindred's Crests / 60 High Kindred's Crests / 60 Sacred Kindred's Crests
Rolanberry Delightaru / Harvest Pastry / Cherry Tree / Far East Hearth / Pot of Wards / White Clematis / Pink Clematis / Birch Tree
Cichol's Mantle / Segomo's Mantle / Alaunus's Cape / Taranus's Cape / Sucellos's Cape / Toutatis's Cape / Rudianos's Mantle / Ankou's Mantle / Artio's Mantle / Intarabus's Cape / Belenus's Cape / Smertrios's Mantle / Andartia's Mantle / Brigantia's Mantle / Camprestres's Cape / Rosmerta's Cape / Camulus's Mantle / Visucius's Mantle / Senuna's Mantle / Legh's Cape / Nantosuelta's Cape / Ogma's Cape
10 Abdhaljs Thread / 10 Abdhaljs Dust / 5 Abdhaljs Sap / 3 Abdhaljs Dye / 2 Abdhaljs Seals / 1 Abdhaljs Needles
Ambuscade Voucher: Head / Ambuscade Voucher: Body / Ambuscade Voucher: Hands / Ambuscade Voucher: Legs / Ambuscade Voucher: Feet
Why no golden pell?
Nice for people that want multiples of a cape they're at the mercy of the monthly limit on. Picking me up 2 RDM capes this month!
[+]
Think I'll just get 2 seals to make the grind faster.
Can you same-account Dbox Abdhaljs stuff, I wonder?
Wonder what I should get on my mule...
Can you same-account Dbox Abdhaljs stuff, I wonder?
Wonder what I should get on my mule...
[+]
Does the silver pell "gift" seem disingenuous to anyone else? None of those items are "special".
I mean it's not even for +1 ambuscade sets, that's just another slap in the face.
I mean it's not even for +1 ambuscade sets, that's just another slap in the face.
Asura.Sechs said: »
Think I'll just get 2 seals to make the grind faster.
Can you same-account Dbox Abdhaljs stuff, I wonder?
Wonder what I should get on my mule...
Can you same-account Dbox Abdhaljs stuff, I wonder?
Wonder what I should get on my mule...
No that's even within an account. :(
They said forever ago that if/when they add more ways to get seals, that they wouldn't allow them to become transferable.
[+]
The undeliverable list: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14591-Undeliverable-Same-Account-Ex-Items
Nothing from the pell is dboxable, except for the furniture. What a ridiculous waste.
Nothing from the pell is dboxable, except for the furniture. What a ridiculous waste.
[+]
Wow, what a waste of campaign.... what do I do with the mules' pell...
Disappointing, I suppose I'll just get a cape.
Pantafernando said: »
Why no golden pell?
I barely remember when the last Golden Pell was given beyond purchasing the Ultimate Seekers Edition version of the game.
This reward is not even worth the 2 minutes they took to make that graphic.
wouldve prefered an ochre or 2 myself. not about to complain about free items tho.
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Upheaval is the best WS I can think of where this principal might work that you actually use. Upheaval is 1.0 at 1k, 3.5 at 2k and 6.5 at 3k.
No it's not, multi-hits mean something.
Upheaval is a 4 hit WS, only the first hit gets the fTP boost. The remaining 3 hits along with any MA procs are stuck at +1.0 fTP . Cross Reaper is the same way, first hit gets the fTP boost but the second hit and any subsequent MA procs are only +1.0. What's important is total fTP being used, unless your doing some SA silliness in which case your better off going with Savage / Mistral or just slapping someone.
Upheaval (moonshade)
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Upheaval
1.5 First hit + 3 x 1.0 extra hits = 4.5 fTP @1000
4.25 First hit + 3 x 1.0 extra hits = 7.25 fTP @2000
6.5 First hit + 3 x 1.0 extra hits = 9.5 fTP at max
That's without procing multi-hits, which you most certainly will do and those favor spamming at 1000. Specifically about WAR, the ridiculous amount of +DA that job gets means that you'll be procing over one DA on average per WS. That's why Resolution seems so broken in a WAR's hands, TP scaling combined with fTP on MA leads to frequent 7 hit Resolutions with silly total fTP's. The downside being the -15% attack which is mitigatable with WAR's attack bonus's and buffs. No SC's though so "situational blah blah" applies.
[+]
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