All For One, And More For Me: A Guide To Red Mage |
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All for One, and More for Me: A Guide to Red Mage
Lakshmi.Byrth said: » Yeah, problem being that skillchain damage varies by >50% anyway now. Need something systematic. Does it really, I thought the formula was figured out? Is : https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain Dated information? Last update was from some persons musing in 2014. That is funny :D
Ok digging more, here's a translated page for the jp wiki: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.ffo.jp%2Fhtml%2F33524.html&edit-text=&act=url And here is a developer post it links to concerning weapon types of even trusts and pets: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/353%3Fp%3D570654%26viewfull%3D1&usg=ALkJrhjt30U7O4XfE7hTrGf3QDJnNtzWkQ#post570654 A takeaway is some trusts and bst pet and puppet automaton get a pet attribute, and some trusts get different attributes other than pet attribute. Avatars aren't listed, nor is any conclusive exact number testing done it seems to link how much skillchain damage boost is done under different situations. Quote: iLevel/Resistance Damage Bonus (see reference) Lakshmi.Byrth said: » Yeah, problem being that skillchain damage varies by >50% anyway now. Need something systematic. I would think that would just be due to skillchains being resisted? Unresisted they seem to have very consistent damage. For example single stage darkness is almost always nearly the exact same damage as my rudra, unless the mob has specific weakness/mitigation. Verda, your JP wiki link says it's a 20% boost to skillchain damage.
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Ah you're right, I missed that. So, 20% boost... but multiplicative or additive and I'm going to assume that's per attribute added? Does it start at 20% or 40% then if that's the case?
Going by my apex party experiences, 3 weapons seem to give at least 65% boost, where allies gave around 35% boost, to the final damage. I don't know if due to damage cap that was 80%... or 60% was enough to get there and/or it multiplies differently somehow. 2 weapons attributes ~probably~ give around 40% boost to skillchain damage making it equivalent to allies roll maxed out, and 3 close to 60% based off my experiences... but it's definitely not hard line tested. Still a better idea than we had before. I don't think this is actually too bad to test though if our RDM is on today I'll see what I can do. I'd hope multiplicative, because skillchain bonus gear caps at 50% and at least some jobs (*cough*Dancer*cough*) get over 30% just from traits and gifts.
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I am willing to take some time to test this out but I'm not sure what mobs are best for testing. Looking for high health mobs that can easily be hit with level 1 weapons.
As a warning, I'm really unfamiliar with actually reading things in Japanese, especially in context of this game, so I suggest someone with better comprehension skills go over this.
JP Wiki page: http://wiki.ffo.jp/html/33524.html Quote: 連携ダメージアップは1.2倍。 異なる武器種であっても、ソロ連携には効果がない。 獣使いのペットや、オートマトンなどには「ペット属性」という武器種が割り当てられている。各フェイスにも固有の武器種が1つ割り当てられており、WS時に使用する武器によらず、固有の武器種に従ってイナンデーションが判定されている*1。青魔法や震天動地の章による連携がどのような扱いになっているのかは要確認。 In regards to pets and automatons, they have a distinct weapon type called "pet attribute." Each Faith (Trust) is assigned one native weapon type, and Inundation is determined by native weapon type without regard for the weapon used at the time of WS. How SCs from Blue Magic and Immanence are handled is unknown. It also lists Trust types, and refers to here about the Trusts: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/353?p=570654&viewfull=1#post570654 Of note, it looks like the Sinister Reign Trusts are all considered this "pet" type (which it says BST and PUP also count as the same). As an example of the above about Faith WS: Quote: モーション、エフェクトにかかわらず、設定された武器種のウェポンスキルに分類されています。 例としてあげていただいたフェイス「ゲッショー」の「羽吹雪」は片手刀、 フェイス「イロハ」「イロハII」の「天つ水影流・鳥雲」「天つ水影流・水烟」は両手槍のウェポンスキルとして扱われます。 For example, Gessho's Feather Storm is one-handed katana, Iroha/Iroha II's Amatsu: Chouun and Suien are handled as polearm weapon skills. ......... The JP wiki did not list source on the 1.2, but Googling Inundation brought up this blog post: http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/47346564.html They imply that they are not the original source of the information on wiki, and also note that their post pre-dates the OF post above. Some excerpts: Quote: 2種(片手剣、片手刀）の場合 ・2連携ダメージに1.2倍のボーナス、さらに1.2倍のボーナスが乗る（乗らないときもある） ・3連携ダメージに1.2倍のボーナス、さらに1.2倍のボーナスが乗る（乗らないときもある） ・4連携以降も同じ PC3人(3種)で3連携時はさらに1.2倍のボーナスが発生するのだろうか？ 他、片手剣WS→特殊なフェイスのWS→片手剣WSだと1.2倍しか乗らない。（フェイスWSによる？） 例：サベッジブレード→ドクターオーダー(シャントット)→シャンデュシニュ →1.2倍のボーナス 例：アヤメの両手刀WS→PC片手剣WS →1.2倍のボーナス、さらに1.2倍のボーナスが乗る（乗らないときもある） 例：アヤメの両手刀WS→PC片手刀WS→PC片手剣WS →1.2倍のボーナス、さらに1.2倍のボーナスが乗る（乗らないときもある？） ・2-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・3-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・4-step+, the same When doing 3-step with three players (three types), I wonder if a further 1.2 multiplier occurs? In the case of sword WS > particular Trust WS > sword WS, nothing but a 1.2 multiplier applies. (Because of the Trust WS?) Example: Savage Blade > Doctor's Orders (Shantotto) > CDC > 1.2 bonus Example: Ayame GKT WS > PC Sword WS > 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applied (sometimes not applied) Example: Ayame GKT WS > PC Katana WS > PC Sword WS > 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applied (sometimes not applied?) Quote: シングル [連携基ダメージ] × [耐性値修正率] × [連携倍率] × [連携ボーナス] × [イナンデーション] ダブル [連携基ダメージ] × [耐性値修正率] × [連携倍率] × [連携ボーナス] × [イナンデーション] × [イナンデーション] 2種2連でもたいていイナンデーションの1.2倍が2回乗るのですが、たまに1回しか乗らないのが良くわからない。 例えば土耐性ノーマルな赤ラプトルに対して2連切断の連携ダメージは0.5倍ですが、イナンデーションを入れると0.5ｘ1.2ｘ1.2の約0.72倍になります。 2回乗るかは敵の属性耐性による？ [original damage] x [monster resistance] x [SC multiplier] x [SC bonus] x [Inundation] Double [original damage] x [monster resistance] x [SC multiplier] x [SC bonus] x [Inundation] x [Inundation] Even with 2-type 2-step, Inundation's 1.2 multiplier is usually applied two times, but occasionally it is only applied once for reasons I don't well understand. For example, against a normal earth resistance red raptor, although SC damage is 0.5 times, when you apply Inundation, it becomes 0.5 x 0.2 x 0.2 (approximately 0.72) times. Is the two applications of Inundation based on resistance? (I don't know what they mean by single/double; they may just be emphasizing that when it's applied twice, it's multiplicative rather than additive.) Quote: [screenshots with damage] 〆のシャンデが8898ダメージ、4連光が33633ダメージ。 [連携基ダメージ] × [耐性値修正率] × [連携倍率] × [連携ボーナス] × [イナンデーション] × [イナンデーション] を当てはめると [8898] × [1.5] ×[1.75] × [1] × [1.2] × [1.2] = 33633 最終倍率は約3.78倍、イナンデーション無しだと2.625倍(23357ダメージ)となりこの場合1万以上の差となります。 各要素の計算順序はわかりませんが、こんな結果となります。 If [original damage] x [resistance] x [SC multiplier] x [SC bonus] x [Inundation] x [Inundation] is applied, [8898] x [1.5] x [1.75] x [1] x [1.2] x [1.2] = 33633 Final multiplier is approximately 3.78, it would become 2.625 without Inundation (23357 damage), more than a 10k difference. I don't understand each factor's sequence, but this is the result.
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Ragnarok.Flippant said: » Two types (sword, katana): ・2-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・3-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・4-step+, the same It seems then no matter how many steps you do the multiplier won't go beyond the number of weapon types used. It is nice to know it's 1.2 * 1.2 though for just sword + katana. The author is also listing it multiplicative with SC Bonus so that's good news for DNC. It'd also make two weapon types skillchaining more potent than capped Allies' roll, but multiply with it. Verda said: » Ragnarok.Flippant said: » Two types (sword, katana): ・2-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・3-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・4-step+, the same It seems then no matter how many steps you do the multiplier won't go beyond the number of weapon types used. It is nice to know it's 1.2 * 1.2 though for just sword + katana. The author is also listing it multiplicative with SC Bonus so that's good news for DNC. It'd also make two weapon types skillchaining more potent than capped Allies' roll, but multiply with it. With allies roll, inundation and DNC closing, is there any chance we could see 99,999 low effort SCs on high level mobs? It's not a bad idea to try out, though allies roll and the SC Bonus trait and SC Bonus gear are all the same term afaik and cap at 50% according to the wiki. Allies roll was used in the SL master trial, especially vs the yagudo so that's one place maybe but you're limited to 6 people.
So, if you do a 3 step skillchain with 3 different weapons, is it 1.2 for the first chain, and 1.3 for the next?
Untested, but my apex party results and the models above would suggest 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.728 or 72.8% for the third ws/second skillchain, and 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.44 or 44% for the 2nd ws/first skillchain.
Is it confirmed that SCH SC doesn't count as weapon type?
eliroo said: » Verda said: » Ragnarok.Flippant said: » Two types (sword, katana): ・2-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・3-step damage, 1.2 bonus, futher 1.2 bonus applies (sometimes not applied) ・4-step+, the same It seems then no matter how many steps you do the multiplier won't go beyond the number of weapon types used. It is nice to know it's 1.2 * 1.2 though for just sword + katana. The author is also listing it multiplicative with SC Bonus so that's good news for DNC. It'd also make two weapon types skillchaining more potent than capped Allies' roll, but multiply with it. With allies roll, inundation and DNC closing, is there any chance we could see 99,999 low effort SCs on high level mobs? Going to need definitions of "low effort SC" and "high level mobs". I've seen 99999's on Neak, Reisen t3 on a 2-step... Afania said: » Is it confirmed that SCH SC doesn't count as weapon type? Anecdotal, but I tend to go RDM to WoC and Teles where we do SCH Distortion > Leaden, and we notice a huge difference with Inundation up. Guess I should start saving logs. My guess is Immanence and Physical Blue Magic count as whatever weapon type the caster is using in their main hand. If not that, either their own Spell category or the all-inclusive Pet group.
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This is what I will be using for low accuracy situations or in Escha/Reisenjima for TP.
ItemSet 345440 Colada: Accuracy+20 and Haste+3% Chironic: Dual Wield+3 and Accuracy+30. Carmine Hands: D (Store TP) Carmine Head: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Carmine Feet: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Sucellos: DEX/Accuracy/Store TP Set puts me at 1077 Accuracy, 25% Haste and +79 Store TP. When in Escha or Reisenjima it puts me at 1240 Accuracy. With food it becomes 1340, with Sabo-Distract it becomes roughly 1560 when you factor in the Evasion Down. If I need a little more Accuracy I just take Ainia and Dedition out for Combatant's and Cessance. Is this what I should ideally be aiming for? Sylph.Braden said: » My guess is Immanence and Physical Blue Magic count as whatever weapon type the caster is using in their main hand. If not that, either their own Spell category or the all-inclusive Pet group. Forever ago I remember seeing a dev post about this, but it was YEARS back. When I have free time I'll dig it up and see what I can find. I want to say that magic was lumped into the pet category, but I might be thinking about something else. Ruaumoko said: » This is what I will be using for low accuracy situations or in Escha/Reisenjima for TP. ItemSet 345440 Colada: Accuracy+20 and Haste+3% Chironic: Dual Wield+3 and Accuracy+30. Carmine Hands: D (Store TP) Carmine Head: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Carmine Feet: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Sucellos: DEX/Accuracy/Store TP Set puts me at 1077 Accuracy, 25% Haste and +79 Store TP. When in Escha or Reisenjima it puts me at 1240 Accuracy. With food it becomes 1340, with Sabo-Distract it becomes roughly 1560 when you factor in the Evasion Down. If I need a little more Accuracy I just take Ainia and Dedition out for Combatant's and Cessance. Is this what I should ideally be aiming for? I would personally switch the Belt to Windbuffet +1(For the QA check), the legs to Carmine +1 and switch up the secondary augment on Colada for more multi-attack or STP. From there you are at 9% DW which can be made up w/ Suppanomimi and switching the Augment on Chironic to +DA. That would put you at 11% DW, capped haste and add in some more multi-attack. You will lose a bit of STP but gain more multi-attack including a check for QA and a higher chance at DA if TA fail its check.
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: » Sylph.Braden said: » My guess is Immanence and Physical Blue Magic count as whatever weapon type the caster is using in their main hand. If not that, either their own Spell category or the all-inclusive Pet group. Forever ago I remember seeing a dev post about this, but it was YEARS back. When I have free time I'll dig it up and see what I can find. I want to say that magic was lumped into the pet category, but I might be thinking about something else. Probably not what you meant, but here's the translated Trust Weapon Type thing anyway. eliroo said: » Ruaumoko said: » This is what I will be using for low accuracy situations or in Escha/Reisenjima for TP. ItemSet 345440 Colada: Accuracy+20 and Haste+3% Chironic: Dual Wield+3 and Accuracy+30. Carmine Hands: D (Store TP) Carmine Head: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Carmine Feet: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Sucellos: DEX/Accuracy/Store TP Set puts me at 1077 Accuracy, 25% Haste and +79 Store TP. When in Escha or Reisenjima it puts me at 1240 Accuracy. With food it becomes 1340, with Sabo-Distract it becomes roughly 1560 when you factor in the Evasion Down. If I need a little more Accuracy I just take Ainia and Dedition out for Combatant's and Cessance. Is this what I should ideally be aiming for? I would personally switch the Belt to Windbuffet +1(For the QA check), the legs to Carmine +1 and switch up the secondary augment on Colada for more multi-attack or STP. From there you are at 9% DW which can be made up w/ Suppanomimi and switching the Augment on Chironic to +DA. That would put you at 11% DW, capped haste and add in some more multi-attack. You will lose a bit of STP but gain more multi-attack including a check for QA and a higher chance at DA if TA fail its check. I don't know if I 100% agree with the windbuffet swap, at least it being required when Reiki Yotai is a great answer to having to make a DW cape or sacrifice a different slot or augment. It has STP and more Acc as well. RDM can afford to lose 2% QA and TA. We have Temper 2. STP is a trait that we need a lot of so in low acc situations, I think the set is pretty sound. Only real issues I have with it are body, hands and legs slot. I think carmine legs +1 are the best for TPing there, and with those you don't need to worry about augmenting haste on Colada. Carmine hands offers little benefit outside of the augment and set bonus compared to Taeon or chironic. At least you can augment those for more favorable stats. Unless Chironic body has better augments than listed, I'd get something else. If this is for low acc situations, you need pieces to pimp out your Attack, STP, Crit rate/damage, etc since we lack those bonuses completely.
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Ragnarok.Rydal said: » eliroo said: » Ruaumoko said: » This is what I will be using for low accuracy situations or in Escha/Reisenjima for TP. ItemSet 345440 Colada: Accuracy+20 and Haste+3% Chironic: Dual Wield+3 and Accuracy+30. Carmine Hands: D (Store TP) Carmine Head: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Carmine Feet: B (Accuracy/DEX/MND) Sucellos: DEX/Accuracy/Store TP Set puts me at 1077 Accuracy, 25% Haste and +79 Store TP. When in Escha or Reisenjima it puts me at 1240 Accuracy. With food it becomes 1340, with Sabo-Distract it becomes roughly 1560 when you factor in the Evasion Down. If I need a little more Accuracy I just take Ainia and Dedition out for Combatant's and Cessance. Is this what I should ideally be aiming for? I would personally switch the Belt to Windbuffet +1(For the QA check), the legs to Carmine +1 and switch up the secondary augment on Colada for more multi-attack or STP. From there you are at 9% DW which can be made up w/ Suppanomimi and switching the Augment on Chironic to +DA. That would put you at 11% DW, capped haste and add in some more multi-attack. You will lose a bit of STP but gain more multi-attack including a check for QA and a higher chance at DA if TA fail its check. I don't know if I 100% agree with the windbuffet swap, at least it being required when Reiki Yotai is a great answer to having to make a DW cape or sacrifice a different slot or augment. It has STP and more Acc as well. RDM can afford to lose 2% QA and TA. We have Temper 2. STP is a trait that we need a lot of so in low acc situations, I think the set is pretty sound. Only real issues I have with it are body, hands and legs slot. I think carmine legs +1 are the best for TPing there, and with those you don't need to worry about augmenting haste on Colada. Carmine hands offers little benefit outside of the augment and set bonus compared to Taeon or chironic. At least you can augment those for more favorable stats. Unless Chironic body has better augments than listed, I'd get something else. If this is for low acc situations, you need pieces to pimp out your Attack, STP, Crit rate/damage, etc since we lack those bonuses completely. I think the QA% check is pretty important as before there is no check for it at all adding a base 2% chance to gain 3x the TP as opposed to 100% chance to gain 4% of your TP. Just for numbers: Quote: Assume 100 Hits, 70 TP/hit and Temper II = 30% TA STP 4 = 70*1.04 = 72.8 Tp/hit 30 Triple attacks 70 Single Attacks 160 Total swings 160*72.8 = 11648 TP TA + 2, QA + 2 2 Qaudruple attacks 31.36 Triple Attacks 66.64 Single Attacks (2*4) + (31.36*3) + 66.64 = 168.72 Total Swings 168.72*70 = 11810.4 TP Just to compare the items side by side in terms of TP generation. DW makes things a bit trickier but that is also a problem for Reiki Yotai, +7 DW is such an odd number when aiming for the 11% DW you need when Haste capped. Switching it out does mean that you need to make up DW else where but keeping it in means you will either overcap DW or undercap it. Patentia is probably a better option when trying to cap max hasted DW. Patentia + Carmine+1 is DW cap when haste capped. So is Suppanomimi + Carmine +1. In just Haste II situations, Reiki Yotai is by far best in slot though. Reiki + Carmine+1 + Eabani + Suppanomimi + 3 DW on Chironic = 25 DW which is really close to the 26 needed. Best option there is probably going to be Reiki + Carmine + Suppanomimi + Taeon bots w/ 4% DW augmented. Ruaumoko seems like he has a lot of options available to him, sporting both a Reiki and and a Telos so I don't think it hurts to min/max either way. Patentia sash has been mentioned several times in the thread when discussing melee sets. Red Mage Cannot Equip it!
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The lack of DW in his set justifies Reiki. Otherwise he'd lose an earring, cape, or possibly a main slot to make up for the 7 DW he'd lose. 7 being an odd number is a strange response since we usually put Suppa in the earring slot or an appropriately augmented Taeon or Chironic, which would even it back out.
I guess it depends on what support is available. I was thinking of a Haste 2 only situation. Although the likelihood that a RDM will be meleeing and there isn't a BLU in the party for MG as well is low, I am looking at it from a minimal outside support aspect for lowman NMs or events like SR or Delve where there isn't much support other than 1 GEO and maybe 1 COR.
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Quendi210 said: » Patentia sash has been mentioned several times in the thread when discussing melee sets. Red Mage Cannot Equip it! I knew that, I just forgot. Thank you for correcting me. I guess that leaves Carmine +1 and Suppanomimi as the perfect combination. Ragnarok.Rydal said: » The lack of DW in his set justifies Reiki. Otherwise he'd lose an earring, cape, or possibly a main slot to make up for the 7 DW he'd lose. 7 being an odd number is a strange response since we usually put Suppa in the earring slot or an appropriately augmented Taeon or Chironic, which would even it back out. I guess it depends on what support is available. I was thinking of a Haste 2 only situation. Although the likelihood that a RDM will be meleeing and there isn't a BLU in the party for MG as well is low, I am looking at it from a minimal outside support aspect for lowman NMs or events like SR or Delve where there isn't much support other than 1 GEO and maybe 1 COR. I agree, I think I was just considering the set w/ something like Carmine +1. Without Carmine legs +1 then Reiki is a clear winner. Most of the time you can summon Ulmia but there are solo fights where she will die, so in those situations you need a lot of DW. I think having a Haste capped and just Haste II set is pretty important. Regardless we both agree that the Haste% could be taken care of with other pieces and Colada could then benefit from a better augment. Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: » Sylph.Braden said: » My guess is Immanence and Physical Blue Magic count as whatever weapon type the caster is using in their main hand. If not that, either their own Spell category or the all-inclusive Pet group. Forever ago I remember seeing a dev post about this, but it was YEARS back. When I have free time I'll dig it up and see what I can find. I want to say that magic was lumped into the pet category, but I might be thinking about something else. You mean this? Where SE says its for multiple weapon type from multiple players. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/47174-Freshly-Picked-Vana-diel-18-Digest eliroo said: » I think having a Haste capped and just Haste II set is pretty important. Yeah I think this it what it all boils down to.
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Small sample of Inundated SCs at WoC tonight. Unfortunately I left after the first fight and completely missed a chance to record the same setup without Inundation by leaving my character at the entrance.
Will be doing more on Friday with probably the same general setup so hopefully I don't forget to log it.
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