Liberals Prefer Comfortable Lies Over Truth

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2010-06-21
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Liberals Prefer Comfortable Lies Over Truth
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 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 15:07:25  
I don't understand why people need "God" to be moral or "not scumbangs."


One of Christopher Hitchens (Staunch Atheist and Conservative) favorite quotes/debate challenges was "Name a moral action or statement that I, as an Atheist cannot perform or take, that a religious/Faith based person can."

"Now think of of an immoral action or stance that can be performed by a person of faith that cannot be taken by an Athiest.... I bet you've already thought of one, since the Suicide Bombing demographic is entirely faith based."
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 15:15:38  
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
I don't understand why people need "God" to be moral or "not scumbangs."


One of Christopher Hitchens (Staunch Atheist and Conservative) favorite quotes/debate challenges was "Name a moral action or statement that I, as an Atheist cannot perform or take, that a religious/Faith based person can."

"Now think of of an immoral action or stance that can be performed by a person of faith that cannot be taken by an Athiest.... I bet you've already thought of one, since the Suicide Bombing demographic is entirely faith based."
Some people need "god" or the community... some people need to get rid of god...

It has nothing to do really with whether your religious or not and more to do with the kind of support structure you might need or get from some other place/people...


Your little quote up there is full of hipocrisy too lol...

Were the Japanese suicide bombing the US during WWII out of religious belief?

There's been plenty of bombings throughout history as well that have been done for non-religious purposes... Does the other side have a monopoly on genocide?

Beyond all of that... just by the wording of his statement... It can be proven wrong because any person atheist or religious can perform any of these actions... whether they do or not... or whether you can completely condemn one side or the other for it is another question...
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 15:16:48  
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
I don't understand why people need "God" to be moral or "not scumbangs."


One of Christopher Hitchens (Staunch Atheist and Conservative) favorite quotes/debate challenges was "Name a moral action or statement that I, as an Atheist cannot perform or take, that a religious/Faith based person can."

"Now think of of an immoral action or stance that can be performed by a person of faith that cannot be taken by an Athiest.... I bet you've already thought of one, since the Suicide Bombing demographic is entirely faith based."
Some people need "god" or the community... some people need to get rid of god...

It has nothing to do really with whether your religious or not and more to do with the kind of support structure you might need or get from some other place/people...


Your little quote up there is full of hipocrisy too lol...

Were the Japanese suicide bombing the US during WWII out of religious belief?



Uh, yes. The Emperor was the Physical manifestation of God in the Japanese Shinto religion...They were dying for the Emperor.

Not to mention "God" and "Group Solidarity" are completely different concepts. Solidarity with the human species is the biological precedent for original morality. Not religion. (Though Religious morality often borrows a lot from the common thread of human solidarity, and extrapolates some of it as well)
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 15:17:50  
It always makes me laugh when people try to lay all the evil of the world at the feet of the religious... Or at least make it seem like their brand is a special type of evil lol...
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 15:18:29  
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
I don't understand why people need "God" to be moral or "not scumbangs."


One of Christopher Hitchens (Staunch Atheist and Conservative) favorite quotes/debate challenges was "Name a moral action or statement that I, as an Atheist cannot perform or take, that a religious/Faith based person can."

"Now think of of an immoral action or stance that can be performed by a person of faith that cannot be taken by an Athiest.... I bet you've already thought of one, since the Suicide Bombing demographic is entirely faith based."
Some people need "god" or the community... some people need to get rid of god...

It has nothing to do really with whether your religious or not and more to do with the kind of support structure you might need or get from some other place/people...


Your little quote up there is full of hipocrisy too lol...

Were the Japanese suicide bombing the US during WWII out of religious belief?



Uh, yes. The Emperor was the Physical manifestation of God in the Japanese Shinto religion...They were dying for the Emperor.
lulz
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 15:20:26  
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
I don't understand why people need "God" to be moral or "not scumbangs."


One of Christopher Hitchens (Staunch Atheist and Conservative) favorite quotes/debate challenges was "Name a moral action or statement that I, as an Atheist cannot perform or take, that a religious/Faith based person can."

"Now think of of an immoral action or stance that can be performed by a person of faith that cannot be taken by an Athiest.... I bet you've already thought of one, since the Suicide Bombing demographic is entirely faith based."
Some people need "god" or the community... some people need to get rid of god...

It has nothing to do really with whether your religious or not and more to do with the kind of support structure you might need or get from some other place/people...


Your little quote up there is full of hipocrisy too lol...

Were the Japanese suicide bombing the US during WWII out of religious belief?



Uh, yes. The Emperor was the Physical manifestation of God in the Japanese Shinto religion...They were dying for the Emperor.
lulz


Glad you came to terms with the stupidity of your post. Baby steps.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 15:21:26  
I see you still haven't come to terms with your hipocrisy or extreme bias though...

Edit: not to mention the idiocy of Hitchens statement which you glossed over. Anyone CAN take those actions...
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 15:29:52  
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
I see you still haven't come to terms with your hipocrisy or extreme bias though...

Edit: not to mention the idiocy of Hitchens statement which you glossed over. Anyone CAN take those actions...


You missed the spirit of the challenge. In the unlimited-possibility-space concept of the multiverse, of course it's possible but that wasn't the point. The point is that people are immediately aware of the faith-based suicide bombings/genital mutilation/subjugation of women examples that are commonplace through both contemporary and historical society.

In other words, you're being dumb.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 16:01:47  
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
I see you still haven't come to terms with your hipocrisy or extreme bias though...

Edit: not to mention the idiocy of Hitchens statement which you glossed over. Anyone CAN take those actions...


You missed the spirit of the challenge. In the unlimited-possibility-space concept of the multiverse, of course it's possible but that wasn't the point. The point is that people are immediately aware of the faith-based suicide bombings/genital mutilation/subjugation of women examples that are commonplace through both contemporary and historical society.

In other words, you're being dumb.
It's not only possible it's happened. The lulz earlier is me laughing at you for trying to get off on a technicality while ignoring the truth of the situation. The reasons the kamikazee pilots in WWII had for sacrificing themselves was not some jihad or a pledge to their god... they did it for nation... for honor... for their families... some even reasoned it away as a chance to win the war... you making it about god or religion is dishonest... Not only that but to say that there has never been a suicide attack in the history of mankind that has no religious affliation is a joke...

History is a mess of cruelty inspired both by religion and no religious aspects... Acted out by men of faith and those with none...

You think the only cruelty out there easily recongnized in contemporary and historical society is related to religion? You'd be wrong.

Your bias is almost too much to bear lol... That and do you really need to lob out useless insults?

People like to make religion the only target... it's an easy one for sure but it's not the only one out there.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 16:04:24  
You could also say that in contemporary and historical society acts of charity and morality are associated with religious entities and not with atheist society at all...
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 16:19:45  
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You could also say that in contemporary and historical society acts of charity and morality are associated with religious entities and not with atheist society at all...

But that would be a lie. I'm an Atheist and I've volunteered at charity. I haven't blown myself up because I have God on my side though, nor have I cut off a portion of a child's genitals because I claim to know God's will.


Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
I see you still haven't come to terms with your hipocrisy or extreme bias though...

Edit: not to mention the idiocy of Hitchens statement which you glossed over. Anyone CAN take those actions...


You missed the spirit of the challenge. In the unlimited-possibility-space concept of the multiverse, of course it's possible but that wasn't the point. The point is that people are immediately aware of the faith-based suicide bombings/genital mutilation/subjugation of women examples that are commonplace through both contemporary and historical society.

In other words, you're being dumb.
It's not only possible it's happened. The lulz earlier is me laughing at you for trying to get off on a technicality while ignoring the truth of the situation. The reasons the kamikazee pilots in WWII had for sacrificing themselves was not some jihad or a pledge to their god... they did it for nation... for honor... for their families... some even reasoned it away as a chance to win the war... you making it about god or religion is dishonest... Not only that but to say that there has never been a suicide attack in the history of mankind that has no religious affliation is a joke...

History is a mess of cruelty inspired both by religion and no religious aspects... Acted out by men of faith and those with none...

You think the only cruelty out there easily recongnized in contemporary and historical society is related to religion? You'd be wrong.

Your bias is almost too much to bear lol... That and do you really need to lob out useless insults?

People like to make religion the only target... it's an easy one for sure but it's not the only one out there.

A lot wrong with this post, but you're not holding yourself to any standard of evidence, so why should I hold myself to that standard?


Not to mention, you still miss the entire point I am trying to make, actually it's not even a "Point" it's simply an appeal to those who consider themselves religious. Help me understand how faith in "God" was required to better yourself.

Also, saying someone is "Being Dumb" isn't an insult of character, just of action. I'd say the same thing to someone who washed their hands and then wiped their ***. It's meaningful in the fact that you're purposefully obfuscating the actual issue I'm bringing up.
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 Bismarck.Magnuss
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By Bismarck.Magnuss 2014-06-17 16:28:46  
I never understood the argument where religious people claim that atheists have no morality. What makes those who believe in a god more moral, exactly? Because we don't believe in an afterlife or a reward/punishment? That makes it seem as though religious people are faking it because they feel they have to do it if they want redemption.

What about the love that Jesus teaches us? Well, isn't it possible to love thy fellow man without adhering to the words of some dude in a book? I'm just as capable of showing compassion as the next guy.

So why else?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-06-17 16:33:59  
It's almost as if human society didn't exist before the monotheisms. Oh wait, it did. For a long time.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-17 16:35:08  
Bismarck.Magnuss said: »
I never understood the argument where religious people claim that atheists have no morality. What makes those who believe in a god more moral, exactly? Because we don't believe in an afterlife or a reward/punishment? That makes it seem as though religious people are faking it because they feel they have to do it if they want redemption.

What about the love that Jesus teaches us? Well, isn't it possible to love thy fellow man without adhering to the words of some dude in a book? I'm just as capable of showing compassion as the next guy.

So why else?
It's about putting the fear of god in to people so that, in a sense, they will always behave because god is always watching them. Much like if the state constantly monitors people, then no one will misbehave.
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By Bismarck.Magnuss 2014-06-17 16:36:56  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Bismarck.Magnuss said: »
I never understood the argument where religious people claim that atheists have no morality. What makes those who believe in a god more moral, exactly? Because we don't believe in an afterlife or a reward/punishment? That makes it seem as though religious people are faking it because they feel they have to do it if they want redemption.

What about the love that Jesus teaches us? Well, isn't it possible to love thy fellow man without adhering to the words of some dude in a book? I'm just as capable of showing compassion as the next guy.

So why else?
It's about putting the fear of god in to people so that, in a sense, they will always behave because god is always watching them. Much like if the state constantly monitors people, then no one will misbehave.
So pretty much the first aspect, then. Be good or a benevolent being will smite you or send you to eternal "time out".
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 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 16:39:13  
What's weird is you can be an Atheist and still adopt the morals taught by the Bible, hopefully edited to the point where Women aren't considered livestock and slavery isn't 'okay'.

It would be no different than adopting the morals of any other character in literature, where Religious morality differs from non-religious morality is that the Religious claim to have God on their side, and/or Know God's Will, which is true in the case of calling the Bible the literal word of God. (Which then begs the question of why are so many of the obvious aberrations of morality omitted in their lives anyway)

It's why Blowing yourself up "For God" is considered a morally justified position in certain Islamic circles... But an atheist cannot morally reconcile the idea with any amount of logic. (Though they can still execute it technically) I think that's the difference I failed to show, or Flavin just failed to see. Atheists can physically do those things, but it's not an act of Moral Justification.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-17 16:51:36  
It's more about the constant fear of being watched than morals, doing good, or being struck down by a benevolent being in the sky.

In other words, the ends are irrelevant, it's the means that's the point. Behave! [whatever the current laws, rules, ethical code, etc.]

Subconscious fear is a powerful tool to control the masses.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-06-17 17:11:51  
Why curtail your moral teachings to monotheisms? Zoroastrians banned slavery in the 3rd century BC where we still see Christians still make excuses for Judiasm. Chinese thought on Westward have fantastic nuggets of wisdom between the nonsense and that neglects Africa, Pagans, Hindus and Buddhists who are pretty atheisti
The idea that atheists are spiritually empty is nonsense. I can derive wondrous insight into humanity and the world from simply taking what wisdom.makes sense without the fantasy elements or obsession with war.
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-06-17 17:17:29  
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Odin.Godofgods said: »
Leviathan.Auuin said: »
I am a christian, a conservative one at that, and i do believe that a stong moral compass in our leaders is essential for the success or our country. I can only speak for myself, but I am a lot less of a scumbag since i have become a christian. (still have a lot of scumbaggery that i'm working through.) XD That being said...the idea that someone would pass a law basically saying that you CANT be a good or moral person, or even an effective leader, unless you believe in God... is INSANE. Some of my most kind and moral friends are athiests/agnostic. Most of them would make great public servants.

Not attacking or criticizing anything you said; but i am going to point out that religion =/= moral.

You can not believe and be moral quite easily. And on the other side of that, many religious ppl are not moral. Just ask any catholic priest. Or the fact that more ppl have been killed in the name of god then for any other reason.
To be fair... He did mention that some of his most kind and moral friends are atheists/agnostics... so I don't really think he's saying that you have to be religious to have a strong moral compass but more that he would prefer to have someone in office with one... religious or not...

And i would agree. I would rather have a moral (anything) then a non-moral (anything). I was just reiterating the point that morals =/= religious. Theirs plenty of ppl, both religious and not, that fall on both sides of the line. Yet ppl still seem to have this general perception of religious ppl are saints and atheist are evil when it comes to morality. And when you mix that into politics, ppls brains seem to go on overload and start smoking up.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 17:17:31  
For the record, Religion is not entitled to a monopoly on spirituality and the numinous. Sam Harris has tons of great lectures, speeches and debates about that.
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-06-17 17:20:18  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Subconscious fear is a powerful tool to control the masses.

sadly, that's true. Even worse, most of the fears that are played on by politicians are not real global fears (so to speak) but rather fears we've created out of ignorance.
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By Triffle 2014-06-17 19:01:49  
Bismarck.Magnuss said: »
I never understood the argument where religious people claim that atheists have no morality. What makes those who believe in a god more moral, exactly? Because we don't believe in an afterlife or a reward/punishment? That makes it seem as though religious people are faking it because they feel they have to do it if they want redemption.

What about the love that Jesus teaches us? Well, isn't it possible to love thy fellow man without adhering to the words of some dude in a book? I'm just as capable of showing compassion as the next guy.

So why else?

The way I understand it those who are religious and believe you need religion to be moral are in fact pretty bad people at heart. The way I get it is that they think that humanity needs a reward dangled in front of them to be good, otherwise a human being is essentially an evil sinner who would rape and pillage at will. Kind of like Patton Oswalt's sky cake bit or how kids need to be good to get presents from Santa. This means for them anyone without a belief in a god and the reward of eternal life and happiness is essentially evil.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-17 19:02:25  
Odin.Godofgods said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Subconscious fear is a powerful tool to control the masses.

sadly, that's true. Even worse, most of the fears that are played on by politicians are not real global fears (so to speak) but rather fears we've created out of ignorance.
Yes. That's why even when you know they're lying about a 'threat' so many others seem to take it seriously.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 19:08:41  
Triffle said: »
Bismarck.Magnuss said: »
I never understood the argument where religious people claim that atheists have no morality. What makes those who believe in a god more moral, exactly? Because we don't believe in an afterlife or a reward/punishment? That makes it seem as though religious people are faking it because they feel they have to do it if they want redemption.

What about the love that Jesus teaches us? Well, isn't it possible to love thy fellow man without adhering to the words of some dude in a book? I'm just as capable of showing compassion as the next guy.

So why else?

The way I understand it those who are religious and believe you need religion to be moral are in fact pretty bad people at heart. The way I get it is that they think that humanity needs a reward dangled in front of them to be good, otherwise a human being is essentially an evil sinner who would rape and pillage at will. Kind of like Patton Oswalt's sky cake bit or how kids need to be good to get presents from Santa. This means for them anyone without a belief in a god and the reward of eternal life and happiness is essentially evil.

TL;DR - Religion: Sociopathy solved by sociopaths!
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-17 19:18:13  
Liberals sin more.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 19:21:28  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Liberals sin more.

Taoists sin the most though.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-17 19:23:14  
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Liberals sin more.

Taoists sin the most though.
By their standards or Christians?

Cause Taoism all about balance yo.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 19:26:40  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Liberals sin more.

Taoists sin the most though.
By their standards or Christians?

Cause Taoism all about balance yo.

That was kind of my point. Who determines sin determines the sinner. I don't consider masturbation a sin, God may disagree.
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By fonewear 2014-06-17 19:30:42  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Liberals sin more.

You had me at sin.
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-06-17 19:37:25  
I can see this thread isn't going anywhere.

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