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Random Politics & Religion #00
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:37:49
Respectfully disagree Mr. Torama.
With which piece? That guns are the most efficient method of killing multiple people available to an average citizen? That it's much easier to kill with a gun than a knife? Those aren't exactly politicized statements. Mostly this part sir:
So please, drop the intellectually bankrupt argument that all weapons are equal. Guns are designed to do one thing - kill - and they are very, very good at that. A pinnacle of human ingenuity. Suggesting that they "just launch projectiles" or "someone could just as easily take down a dozen people with a knife" is preposterous, and undermines your argument.
But a few other bits and pieces as well.
I didn't say it was politicized.
I (nor anyone else really) stated or believe (as far as I know) that weapons are created equally, in fact there's a good many weapons that are much easier to get and to kill with than a gun.
But it's alright that we disagree on it, and I'm OK with that.
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By Drama Torama 2015-10-02 09:39:04
People are going to kill each other, that's an undeniable fact. Guns help people kill others easier, that is also an undeniable fact. But guns themselves aren't the main killers, it's the users who need to be checked.
I'm not even arguing that "Obama should take all the guns", or anything. I make a real effort to keep my own political leanings out of my posts here (for obvious reasons, and I don't always succeed), but the logical failings of the many bad pro-gun arguments do no one any good. It doesn't help the pro-gun people because they look crazy, and means instead of compromise, the anti-gun folks just see it as "Okay, they aren't even attempting to be rational, let's just take them all".
Here's the thing; until the pro-gun crowd comes up with a better retort than "well, I don't kill people", the day is looming when someone is going to try and take them all. That won't be a good day for anyone involved.
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By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:40:04
People are going to kill each other, that's an undeniable fact. Guns help people kill others easier, that is also an undeniable fact. But guns themselves aren't the main killers, it's the users who need to be checked.
I'm not even arguing that "Obama should take all the guns", or anything. I make a real effort to keep my own political leanings out of my posts here (for obvious reasons, and I don't always succeed), but the logical failings of the many bad pro-gun arguments do no one any good. It doesn't help the pro-gun people because they look crazy, and means instead of compromise, the anti-gun folks just see it as "Okay, they aren't even attempting to be rational, let's just take them all".
Here's the thing; until the pro-gun crowd comes up with a better retort than "well, I don't kill people", the day is looming when someone is going to try and take them all. That won't be a good day for anyone involved. Why should they have to give a better argument? They shouldn't need to justify their rights.
Nor should they really be rational about it either. IMO.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 09:40:20
Every time I hear "WELL PEOPLE COULD DO THIS WITH A KNIFE!" I just cup my brain and tell the neurons that it's all going to be ok.
Yes, someone can take out 10 people with a knife. And I thought I was the one watching too many Steven Seagal movies...
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 09:41:37
People are going to kill each other, that's an undeniable fact. Guns help people kill others easier, that is also an undeniable fact. But guns themselves aren't the main killers, it's the users who need to be checked.
I'm not even arguing that "Obama should take all the guns", or anything. I make a real effort to keep my own political leanings out of my posts here (for obvious reasons, and I don't always succeed), but the logical failings of the many bad pro-gun arguments do no one any good. It doesn't help the pro-gun people because they look crazy, and means instead of compromise, the anti-gun folks just see it as "Okay, they aren't even attempting to be rational, let's just take them all".
Here's the thing; until the pro-gun crowd comes up with a better retort than "well, I don't kill people", the day is looming when someone is going to try and take them all. That won't be a good day for anyone involved. Why should they have to give a better argument? They shouldn't need to justify their rights.
Nor should they really be rational about it either. IMO.
They shouldn't be rational? Ok...
Further, I rather people just say they like their guns and *** all these people dying, they're dying for freedom. Like soldiers but on college campuses. I don't care because I don't know these randos dying of gun violence anyway.
At least they're being brutally honest.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 09:42:54
my favorite part of this discussion is your comment... linky
"When in doubt, kill everyone and blame the voices in your head!"
/grants you american citizenship and hands you a ak47
welcome to america!
I've been waiting years for recognition! Thank you! Also, as a cheeky aside, I wish I had a red bar. Jet's so much more respectful when somebody has a red bar...
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 09:43:11
Here's the thing; until the pro-gun crowd comes up with a better retort than "well, I don't kill people", the day is looming when someone is going to try and take them all. That won't be a good day for anyone involved. Actually, I'm not even worried about the US government even attempting to take guns away.
Reason being: In order for there to be a completely "gun-free" America, there has to be a completely "gun-free" Earth. Meaning that all guns would have to be taken and destroyed, and all ammunition would have to be taken and destroyed.
Before that where to happen, we would have to have world peace, and religious peace, and that will never happen in human history. We are a billion times more likely to destroy the earth than to obtain world peace.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:43:18
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Every time I hear "WELL PEOPLE COULD DO THIS WITH A KNIFE!" I just cup my brain and tell the neurons that it's all going to be ok.
Yes, someone can take out 10 people with a knife. And I thought I was the one watching too many Steven Seagal movies...
Eh, they took out 31~ and injured a bunch more, I'll give it that it was a group of people though.
People merely assert that it's possible, and it is most certainly possible. But it does distract from the point.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-10-02 09:43:36
....
The AR15 is also a very popular gun, go figure.
It's still not an assault rifle. The AR15 was designed as a military weapon. For civilian use the burst and full auto modes were removed.
The 5.56 nato round it fires is too light for hunting use and not accurate enough for shooting competitions.
So if it is neither an assault weapon nor a sporting weapon WTF is it? I know a bunch of people who I know shoot very frequently who disagree with you entirely, but it's moot as it's up to the individual to decide what to use.
But the point being is that it's not an assault weapon. Due to the removal of the burst and full auto modes, by both your definition and mine, it is no longer an assault weapon. When we had an assault weapon ban in this country it was defined as one. Definitions are everything.
P. S. It is dead simple to reconvert it to full automatic mode. I have fired one so converted. I suppose we should be thankful that none of these mass shooters know the first thing about gunsmithing.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 09:44:38
*voices in head*
"Use the left trigger button button to lock on to targets."
"Use the right trigger button to fire. Hold down the trigger button for full auto."
"Watch the suppressor gauge, when it runs out enemies will know your position."
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:45:09
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »They shouldn't be rational? Ok...
Further, I rather people just say they like their guns and *** all these people dying, they're dying for freedom. Like soldiers but on college campuses. I don't care because I don't know these randos dying of gun violence anyway.
At least they're being brutally honest.
Like I said earlier (at least I'm pretty sure I did) I'd rather deal with the issues of an armed society than with the issues of an unarmed society.
While I don't like people needlessly dying, I realize it's merely a symptom and the alternative that people give would be much worse.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 09:45:28
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »*voices in head*
"Use the left trigger button button to lock on to targets."
"Use the right trigger button to fire. Hold down the trigger button for full auto."
"Watch the suppressor gauge, when it runs out enemies will know your position."
Don't forget the pixely numbers on the top right edge of your vision.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:46:19
....
The AR15 is also a very popular gun, go figure.
It's still not an assault rifle. The AR15 was designed as a military weapon. For civilian use the burst and full auto modes were removed.
The 5.56 nato round it fires is too light for hunting use and not accurate enough for shooting competitions.
So if it is neither an assault weapon nor a sporting weapon WTF is it? I know a bunch of people who I know shoot very frequently who disagree with you entirely, but it's moot as it's up to the individual to decide what to use.
But the point being is that it's not an assault weapon. Due to the removal of the burst and full auto modes, by both your definition and mine, it is no longer an assault weapon. When we had an assault weapon ban in this country it was defined as one. Definitions are everything.
P. S. It is dead simple to reconvert it to full automatic mode. I have fired one so converted. I suppose we should be thankful that none of these mass shooters know the first thing about gunsmithing.
I typically don't follow the definitions of the members of congress or the courts, I mean corporations = people?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 09:46:54
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Every time I hear "WELL PEOPLE COULD DO THIS WITH A KNIFE!" I just cup my brain and tell the neurons that it's all going to be ok.
Yes, someone can take out 10 people with a knife. And I thought I was the one watching too many Steven Seagal movies... and in places where gun mass murders get the most publicity too.
It's not rare either.
And it can be just as quick as a gun would do, just with less noise.
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By Drama Torama 2015-10-02 09:46:55
Since we are going to lose the P&R section soon anyway.... Wait... WHAT?
It's on the table, yes. The P+R section generates orders of magnitude more hassle and problems than the rest of the site put together. The argument for keeping it has always been that it kept things isolated and contained, and that while the rules were a little looser they were mostly adhered to. What's happened in practice is that the percentage of users who are effectively toxic has increased, to the point where there are real internal discussions about removing the section entirely (or cracking down MUCH harder on misbehavior).
However, there are people who actively want P&R to go away, so they will do their utmost to get rid of it.
That isn't what's happening. The people responsible for this potential shift in policy are the ones who are in here anyway. I know the difference between interloping saboteurs and people who just can't behave.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:47:42
Soon people will be able to produce their own guns anyway, and not just the self imploding ones.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 09:48:04
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Every time I hear "WELL PEOPLE COULD DO THIS WITH A KNIFE!" I just cup my brain and tell the neurons that it's all going to be ok.
Yes, someone can take out 10 people with a knife. And I thought I was the one watching too many Steven Seagal movies...
Eh, they took out 31~ and injured a bunch more, I'll give it that it was a group of people though.
People merely assert that it's possible, and it is most certainly possible. But it does distract from the point.
So you're going to compare multiple assailants with knives to what ONE person can do with a decent weapon? That's the entire point of guns. You can kill alot of people, at range, effortlessly with minimal training.
Stabbing someone to death is up close and personal. It also gives people a way of stopping you.
Again, 2A people should just cede the stupid points and say mass deaths in America are part in parcel with maintaining our right to bear arms. The dumb cover of "knives", "good guys with guns" and the obsession with Chicago is tiring. Stick alot of people in any major city with guns and see what happens.
People die is what happens. En masse.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 09:49:23
Since we are going to lose the P&R section soon anyway.... Wait... WHAT?
It's on the table, yes. The P+R section generates orders of magnitude more hassle and problems than the rest of the site put together. The argument for keeping it has always been that it kept things isolated and contained, and that while the rules were a little looser they were mostly adhered to. What's happened in practice is that the percentage of users who are effectively toxic has increased, to the point where there are real internal discussions about removing the section entirely (or cracking down MUCH harder on misbehavior). AKA if you don't want to lose the P&R section, moderate yourself.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 09:50:32
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Every time I hear "WELL PEOPLE COULD DO THIS WITH A KNIFE!" I just cup my brain and tell the neurons that it's all going to be ok.
Yes, someone can take out 10 people with a knife. And I thought I was the one watching too many Steven Seagal movies...
Eh, they took out 31~ and injured a bunch more, I'll give it that it was a group of people though.
People merely assert that it's possible, and it is most certainly possible. But it does distract from the point.
So you're going to compare multiple assailants with knives to what ONE person can do with a decent weapon? That's the entire point of guns. You can kill alot of people, at range, effortlessly with minimal training.
Stabbing someone to death is up close and personal. It also gives people a way of stopping you.
Again, 2A people should just cede the stupid points and say mass deaths in America are part in parcel with maintaining our right to bear arms. The dumb cover of "knives", "good guys with guns" and the obsession with Chicago is tiring. Stick alot of people in any major city with guns and see what happens.
People die is what happens. En masse. There are mass murders done by weapons other than guns, you don't hear about it because it doesn't make great news (or create needless emotions).
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 09:50:53
Your own sources show that knife attacks injure, but kill less than gun attacks. Mainly cause I dunno, guns are more efficient.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-10-02 09:50:54
I repeat:
Somehow this seems appropriate....
"It seems to me I have heard this song before,
"Its from an old, familiar score."
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:50:57
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » Stick a lot of people in any major city with guns and see what happens. But they're not supposed to have guns Sparth.
As for the comparison: it was more of that's all I was bothered with to search for, I got lazy I admit.
They're not "stupid points" so much as less important, and easily argued with misrepresenting numbers (on both sides).
But what you say the argument should be is the main point I've been striving at anyway. It's a philosophical viewpoint, I do find it interesting that so far the only people who have even recognized it are other Americans.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 09:52:11
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Your own sources show that knife attacks injure, but kill less than gun attacks. Mainly cause I dunno, guns are more efficient. Again, I'm not denying that. I'm just showing you that it is just as possible to have non-gun related mass murders as it is to have gun-related mass murders.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 09:53:49
Again, I'm not denying that. I'm just showing you that it is just as possible to have non-gun related mass murders as it is to have gun-related mass murders.
Well played. Show us 292 more examples and then we'll be level with mass shootings in 2015.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:54:51
To be fair, even with some disagreements, this has been a rather tame discussion, almost civil.
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By Drama Torama 2015-10-02 09:55:36
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »I wouldn't mind P&R going away completely
I would, actually. When it's good, this section is interesting and a different take on current events. The problem is that it goes off the rails so easily. I would view shuttering it as a personal failure, which is why I'm trying to find ways to fix the problems that aren't 1) buy the family pack of banhammers or 2) close it all down.
I don't like using my power, and I especially don't like it when people who've done nothing wrong feel the brunt of it. I'm just sick of watching this place wreck the overall culture of the site, and I'm far from the only one.
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By Drama Torama 2015-10-02 09:56:20
To be fair, even with some disagreements, this has been a rather tame discussion, almost civil. When it's good, this section is interesting and a different take on current events.
Yep.
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By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 09:56:25
Again, I'm not denying that. I'm just showing you that it is just as possible to have non-gun related mass murders as it is to have gun-related mass murders.
Well played. Show us 292 more examples and then we'll be level with mass shootings in 2015. Calling 4 people shot a "mass shooting" is a big stretch.
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