Random Politics & Religion #00

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2010-06-21
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Random Politics & Religion #00
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-09-22 00:19:56  
Jassik said: »
It's not uncommon for local elections to swing like that, but on the national stage it's highly unusual.

Yes and no. We're talking about home field advantage here. If it happened somewhere else, I'd be shocked.
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By Jetackuu 2015-09-22 07:56:54  
Jassik said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
fonewear said: »
Makes me think of my favorite Simpsons brought to you by reference:

“And to cool off, nothing beats Fruitopia! The iced tea brewed by hippies but distributed by a heartless, multi-national corporation!”

I hate how corporations are destroying America by gouging customers with overpriced junk. All of my friends that are with me at this Starbucks on their Apple devices agree with me.


I know you're joking, but price gouging is actually a thing. Look at Healthcare, for-profit education, etc.

I was talking specifically about Daraprim.

I read about that a bit this morning.

Some rather disturbing ***.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-22 08:46:55  
In idiotic news:

Hillary Clinton unveils plan to lower prescription drug costs

Quote:
Hillary Clinton on Tuesday will roll out a plan to rein in prescription drug costs by forcing pharmaceutical companies to reinvest their profits into research and allowing for more generic and imported drugs.

The proposal, which she’ll outline in a speech in Iowa later today, would also allow Medicare to negotiate lower drug costs and cap out-of-pocket expenses, according to details of the plan sent out by the campaign.

The plan seeks to address a key shortcoming of Obamacare, President Obama’s signature health law, as the Democratic front-runner aims to show how she would put her imprint on it.

On Monday, Clinton sent out a tweet referencing a New York Times article about a drug to treat a life-threatening parasitic infection that increased in price overnight from $13.50 to $750 per tablet.

"Price gouging like this in the specialty drug market is outrageous. Tomorrow I'll lay out a plan to take it on,’’ she said.

The nation’s largest companies are charging Americans thousands of dollars for new drugs that are often priced lower in other developed nations while receiving billions of taxpayer dollars for basic research, according to the campaign.

The prescription drug plan is part of a broader focus on health care this week.

On Wednesday, she’ll outline a separate set of proposals to address other out-of-pocket health costs that patients face.

Clinton, who’s also made executive pay a focus of her campaign, will highlight the higher profit margins the largest pharmaceutical companies enjoy relative to other industries.

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, who's also seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, is sponsoring legislation to allow Medicare to negotiate lower drug prices with pharmaceutical companies. His legislation would also allow individuals and resellers to import prescription drugs from Canada, which offers lower-cost drugs. Ninety percent of seniors and around half of all Americans take a prescription drug. A typical senior enrolled in Medicare spends more than $500 per year out of pocket to buy prescription drugs.

According to an August survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation, more than 70% of Americans feel that drug costs are unreasonable and that drug companies put profits before people.

Eighty-three percent said they favor allowing the federal government to negotiate with drug companies to get a lower price.

The poll also found that the public continues to be skeptical of the Affordable Care Act, with 44% having a favorable view and 41% an unfavorable one.

Clinton's plan, according to the campaign, will propose to:

-Deny tax breaks for consumer advertising and demand that drug companies instead invest U.S. taxpayer dollars in research and development. Many companies benefit from corporate write-offs for advertising aimed specifically at consumers. Companies that receive federal funds would be required to reinvest a certain amount in research.

-Encourage the production of generic drugs including lowering the amount of time companies can exclusively produce new treatments.

-Cap what insurers can charge consumers with chronic or serious health conditions in out-of-pocket costs. Health insurance plans would place a monthly limit of $250 on out-of-pocket costs for such patients.

-Allow Americans to import drugs from abroad. Countries in Europe with similar safety standards often pay half of what American pay for the same drugs, according to the campaign.

-Allow Medicare to negotiate drug and biologic prices, especially for high-cost drugs with limited competition

First off, didn't the liberals/democrats learn their lesson from the last time they tried to make healthcare affordable? Apparently not, since they are double downing on pretty much the exact same thing.

Secondly, pharmaceuticals already have the largest R&D budget of any industry out there. If the liberals accuse pharmaceuticals of using taxpayer money for indirectly increasing advertising for their drugs, then they would have no choice but to admit that Planned Parenthood is indirectly using taxpayer money for abortions, because it is the exact same concept. But why point that out to hypocrites? They (and I'm sure many liberal posters here will defend them) don't see it that way.

Thirdly, all she is doing is creating a knee-jerk reaction to another similar story where a company bought the rights to a drug and increased the selling price from $13.50 to $750. In other words, she did not have this "plan" yesterday, this came out of her *** mouth from her knee-jerk reaction, which shows that she is a reactionary, not a prevention, politician....and people want her as president....
 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-09-22 09:08:34  
Hillary Clinton and Jassik can go buy the company together and give the drugs away for free then. Problem solved....

wait a tick...just how many parasites does jassik have!?
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-22 09:14:23  
They can demand that all prescription drugs are free until they are blue in the face and still won't get it.

Plus, I wonder if either one knows that there is no such thing in this world as "free"
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-09-22 09:23:06  
It is definitely a tricky situation trying to balance Pharma profits with R&D costs, but this jackwad Martin Shkreli is going about it in the worst way possible.
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By Jassik 2015-09-22 09:24:58  
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Hillary Clinton and Jassik can go buy the company together and give the drugs away for free then. Problem solved....

wait a tick...just how many parasites does jassik have!?

Naw, I don't expect it to be free. But a lot of the drugs that have seen insane hikes are older and generic. There's doing business, then there's profiteering.
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By Jassik 2015-09-22 09:26:19  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
It is definitely a tricky situation trying to balance Pharma profits with R&D costs, but this jackwad Martin Shkreli is going about it in the worst way possible.


Well, research costs are already heavily subsidized, but we aren't talking about new drugs in this case.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-22 09:30:09  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
It is definitely a tricky situation trying to balance Pharma profits with R&D costs, but this jackwad Martin Shkreli is going about it in the worst way possible.
I agree. One should actually seek investment money instead of increasing costs by so much on a much needed drug....

Hell, I'm sure the government would give his company grant money, they love throwing money around....
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-09-22 09:47:13  
Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
It is definitely a tricky situation trying to balance Pharma profits with R&D costs, but this jackwad Martin Shkreli is going about it in the worst way possible.


Well, research costs are already heavily subsidized, but we aren't talking about new drugs in this case.

That's looking at it from a very narrow business view. Markups on one product (new or not) can fund R&D for different products. If there's one thing that's obvious in the medical field, it's that costs aren't split evenly. I have analyzed cost data for a major hospital group in the U.S., and it's not odd to see hospitals losing money on many types of surgeries and making a huge profit off of others. I think I'm still under legal obligation to not disclose which are which, though.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-22 09:50:57  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
It is definitely a tricky situation trying to balance Pharma profits with R&D costs, but this jackwad Martin Shkreli is going about it in the worst way possible.


Well, research costs are already heavily subsidized, but we aren't talking about new drugs in this case.

That's looking at it from a very narrow business view. Markups on one product (new or not) can fund R&D for different products. If there's one thing that's obvious in the medical field, it's that costs aren't split evenly. I have analyzed cost data for a major hospital group in the U.S., and it's not odd to see hospitals losing money on many types surgeries and making a huge profit off of others. I think I'm still under legal obligation to not disclose which are which, though.
It's not just the medical industry that has such various cost differentiation.

Almost all non-service industries (and most service too) have different costs for the different types of jobs or products produced.

A company could lose a lot of money on a specific product and still make an overall profit, and still keep the specific product for namesake or other various reasons. It's not unheard of.
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By Ramyrez 2015-09-22 09:58:26  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I think I'm still under legal obligation to not disclose which are which, though.

Luckily the internet is full of all sorts of people who aren't violating any contracts by investigating and reporting this.

25 high margin medical procedures

Bear in mind this isn't entirely hospital/big pharm related. Some of these are obviously high-profit because they're fake and completely worthless (see: acupuncture, holistic healing).
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-22 10:02:22  
Ramyrez said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I think I'm still under legal obligation to not disclose which are which, though.

Luckily the internet is full of all sorts of people who aren't violating any contracts by investigating and reporting this.

25 high margin medical procedures

Bear in mind this isn't entirely hospital/big pharm related. Some of these are obviously high-profit because they're fake and completely worthless (see: acupuncture, holistic healing).
It's also a blog and opinionated, not exactly full of evidence or facts.
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By Ramyrez 2015-09-22 10:07:43  
In a move that will probably surprise KN again -- and while this one price hike situation is clearly an outlying bit of massive greed -- when it comes to science and medical research, you have to understand costs are not linear and while I don't agree with the boost in price on this particular drug, many high-priced medicines are justified as such.

Some drugs cost a lot. Some are dirt cheap (for instance, I roll my eyes so hard when a diabetic smoker says they can't afford their metformin. -.-). Companies could do a better job of balancing this in places, it's true. And greed needs to be watchdogged and kept in check. But they do need to operate on a profit margin at some level, or they can't keep operating at all. And that is bad.

So while yes, you will find instances of greed/poor balancing of business expenditures such as this one, most drugs with a high cost have a reason for it. They need to be researched. Tested. Clinical trials. So forth. And at every step you need to be paying people with high-end STEM degrees to be researching, working, and reviewing.

And of course the suits then need their cut for your various what-have-yous that they do managing personnel, marketing, etc.

I do think advertising of prescription drugs needs to be reigned in. It's sort of funny because about 15 years or so ago (I forget precisely) there was a big backlash and policy upheaval regarding pharmaceutical companies wining and dining doctors to education and ask them to push their meds where appropriate.

But then they turn around and now they spend vastly more (presumably consumer-funded) advertising doctors getting patients to run to their doctor begging for the new drug they saw advertised.

So they're basically doing the same thing, just taking the ability of the professional medical provider to screen what's good for their patients and not, but they're spending more money, so consumers have to pay more.

This is a really fun topic.
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By Ramyrez 2015-09-22 10:09:45  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
It's also a blog and opinionated, not exactly full of evidence or facts.

Indeed, but I just took the first thing Google returned that passed the eye test on valid.

I think we can agree that the hocus pocus procedures are a waste of money, and I've had several doctors I work with lament the overuse of some forms of medical imaging or certain other procedures.

So yes. It's a big, scary, nasty, evil blog.

It's also a pretty accurate, if not iron clad, list.

I'm really just saying the information is out there if you're interested, we don't need to push the boundaries of Rav's contractual obligations. ^^
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-09-22 10:10:33  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I think I'm still under legal obligation to not disclose which are which, though.

Luckily the internet is full of all sorts of people who aren't violating any contracts by investigating and reporting this.

25 high margin medical procedures

Bear in mind this isn't entirely hospital/big pharm related. Some of these are obviously high-profit because they're fake and completely worthless (see: acupuncture, holistic healing).
It's also a blog and opinionated, not exactly full of evidence or facts.

There's one type of procedure in particular that I'm not seeing on that list that was a big money maker. Still interesting, but hard to confirm the rest since I don't have access to the data anymore.
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By Jassik 2015-09-22 10:11:47  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
It is definitely a tricky situation trying to balance Pharma profits with R&D costs, but this jackwad Martin Shkreli is going about it in the worst way possible.


Well, research costs are already heavily subsidized, but we aren't talking about new drugs in this case.

That's looking at it from a very narrow business view. Markups on one product (new or not) can fund R&D for different products. If there's one thing that's obvious in the medical field, it's that costs aren't split evenly. I have analyzed cost data for a major hospital group in the U.S., and it's not odd to see hospitals losing money on many types of surgeries and making a huge profit off of others. I think I'm still under legal obligation to not disclose which are which, though.

We're not talking about stratified costs, we're talking about companies acquiring the rights to drugs that have generic equivalents, then buying the generic manufacturers and skirting the sundown on exclusivity then hiking the price to ridiculous levels. Other generic manufacturers can choose to start selling those drugs, but it usually is not worth the investment cost considering the first company will soak up a mountain of profits in the mean time, then is able to floor the price again as soon as there is competition. It's textbook profiteering.

I'm well aware of stratifying costs. I damn near lost money on every car we built and was turning out brake jobs and oil changes to pay the bills.

Incidentally, private investment is one of the biggest problems with big pharma.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-09-22 10:12:06  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
There's one type of procedure in particular that I'm not seeing on that list that was a big money maker.
I didn't bother opening the link, but I'll say circumcision because jews!
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-22 10:13:49  
I'm not going to deny that there are some bad players out there, nor that there shouldn't really be advertising on prescriptions.

I think the government should help (but not control) R&D but it is up to the companies to actually control what types of R&D is done. Because it is in the best interest of the company to produce the miracle pill than it is to research how dogs dream (or any other fully governmental funded "research").

Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
It's also a blog and opinionated, not exactly full of evidence or facts.

Indeed, but I just took the first thing Google returned that passed the eye test on valid.

I think we can agree that the hocus pocus procedures are a waste of money, and I've had several doctors I work with lament the overuse of some forms of medical imaging or certain other procedures.
Agreed
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By Ramyrez 2015-09-22 10:14:58  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
There's one type of procedure in particular that I'm not seeing on that list that was a big money maker

Cesarean sections come to mind. I've seen that cited several times as a procedure performed "just to be safe" far, far too often when, in fact, it's because they make a ton more money off of it than a regular vaginal birth.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-09-22 10:15:17  
Incidentally, it might not be the common people with the biggest target on Shkreli's head if it ends up being his actions that bring the business model crashing down due to government intervention. It's one thing having the public hate you, but it's another having the super rich holding you personally responsible for their losses.
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By Ramyrez 2015-09-22 10:15:35  
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
I didn't bother opening the link, but I'll say circumcision because jews!

It's on the list.
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By Ramyrez 2015-09-22 10:17:03  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Incidentally, it might not be the common people with the biggest target on Shkreli's head if it ends up being his actions that bring the business model crashing down due to government intervention. It's one thing having the public hate you, but it's another having the super rich holding you personally responsible for their losses.

I actually saw one of his tweets that was very, very accurate.

He said his job wasn't to please consumers. It was to please his shareholders and take public heat for it.

That's frequently why the various sports commissioners are so reviled yet keep their jobs for decades on end.

They get paid millions to be the public face of the owners and take the heat for the owners questionable/unpopular calls that pad their bottom lines.

I don't like it. But it is true.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-09-22 10:19:06  
your face's on the list
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By Jassik 2015-09-22 10:20:09  
Ramyrez said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Incidentally, it might not be the common people with the biggest target on Shkreli's head if it ends up being his actions that bring the business model crashing down due to government intervention. It's one thing having the public hate you, but it's another having the super rich holding you personally responsible for their losses.

I actually saw one of his tweets that was very, very accurate.

He said his job wasn't to please consumers. It was to please his shareholders and take public heat for it.

That's frequently why the various sports commissioners are so reviled yet keep their jobs for decades on end.

They get paid millions to be the public face of the owners and take the heat for the owners questionable/unpopular calls that pad their bottom lines.

I don't like it. But it is true.

They should also be criminally liable for the result of those actions. If they faced actual consequences for breaking the law on behalf of the shareholders, there would be some incentive to push back against them.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-09-22 10:23:44  
Well, stocks are falling, so wouldn't that be displeasing to both the consumers and the shareholders?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-09-22 10:25:37  
Jassik said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Incidentally, it might not be the common people with the biggest target on Shkreli's head if it ends up being his actions that bring the business model crashing down due to government intervention. It's one thing having the public hate you, but it's another having the super rich holding you personally responsible for their losses.

I actually saw one of his tweets that was very, very accurate.

He said his job wasn't to please consumers. It was to please his shareholders and take public heat for it.

That's frequently why the various sports commissioners are so reviled yet keep their jobs for decades on end.

They get paid millions to be the public face of the owners and take the heat for the owners questionable/unpopular calls that pad their bottom lines.

I don't like it. But it is true.

They should also be criminally liable for the result of those actions. If they faced actual consequences for breaking the law on behalf of the shareholders, there would be some incentive to push back against them.
We are criminally liable (and financially liable) for all of our actions as executives.

Sarbanes Oxley Act of 2002

Dumbed down version of the law
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By Jassik 2015-09-22 10:26:43  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Well, stocks are falling, so wouldn't that be displeasing to both the consumers and the shareholders?

Stocks might be falling temporarily, but they're raking in massive profits off drugs that people cannot live without. The public outrage will pass, stocks will recover, and they'll be sitting on a giant pile of cash to throw around.
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By Jassik 2015-09-22 10:28:28  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Jassik said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Incidentally, it might not be the common people with the biggest target on Shkreli's head if it ends up being his actions that bring the business model crashing down due to government intervention. It's one thing having the public hate you, but it's another having the super rich holding you personally responsible for their losses.

I actually saw one of his tweets that was very, very accurate.

He said his job wasn't to please consumers. It was to please his shareholders and take public heat for it.

That's frequently why the various sports commissioners are so reviled yet keep their jobs for decades on end.

They get paid millions to be the public face of the owners and take the heat for the owners questionable/unpopular calls that pad their bottom lines.

I don't like it. But it is true.

They should also be criminally liable for the result of those actions. If they faced actual consequences for breaking the law on behalf of the shareholders, there would be some incentive to push back against them.
We are criminally liable (and financially liable) for all of our actions as executives.

Sarbanes Oxley Act of 2002

Dumbed down version of the law

Justice department deals almost always include immunity. Just because someone CAN be held liable doesn't mean they ever are.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-09-22 10:29:28  
Jassik said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Hillary Clinton and Jassik can go buy the company together and give the drugs away for free then. Problem solved....

wait a tick...just how many parasites does jassik have!?

Naw, I don't expect it to be free. But a lot of the drugs that have seen insane hikes are older and generic. There's doing business, then there's profiteering.

so buy the company and sell the drugs for a modest profit...

do I have to think of everything!


and really dude how many freaking parasites do you have anyways
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