Random Politics & Religion #00

Nobody supports violent illegal immigrants any more than they support violent legal immigrants or violent citizens. The issue is equating illegal immigrants with violent criminals, which is a completely unsubstantiated claim.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but this is just the most intellectually lazy response I can imagine. You paint a whole side with a broad brush dipped in negative connotations, and when called on it, try to claim that yours are the good kind of generalizations. And then, and then, call someone else out on being scared to own up to beliefs!

Look, if you think the right wing is full up with crackpots - and you clearly do - go for it, but follow your own chiding and own it.

Also, of all the people on the right around here to go after, you pick Ravael? Really? You really don't read this section much, do you?

"you should hate this group of people and we should do violent things to them because I hate them also" = hate speech, because it is conspiracy to commit violence based on hate.

"I hate this guy" = not hate speech. It's not right to hate anyone, but it's this persons freedom to have their own thoughts and feelings and to share them. To not share your thoughts and feelings will only make them fester and eventually turn into the first statement above.

"I have proof that a person is a violent criminal and they should be prosecuted and as punishment they should be expelled from the country because they are not a citizen of this country" = fact with added opinion of what the punishment should be. Not hate speech. (and in my personal opinion it is a very merciful punishment to be simply set free in your own land instead of locked up behind bars)

Is there an example of that third hypothetical?

Why in the hell would you let a violent criminal go free? What possible justification is there for that?

You would rather they go to our prisons? I think exile is far more appropriate. That is how these matters were handled for thousands of years and it was a good system that worked. Not only in this situation but in many matters exile was the punishment. But in the times we live in where all land is claimed this will not work for internal affairs, but it is still a very viable option for those who are trespassing in our land.

I thought the example was contained within it's self.
In what way would you like me to elaborate more on it?

If there's no appropriate extradition/rendition treaties? Yes, I would rather they go to our prisons. From an altruistic angle, you can't let them roam free anywhere, and from a self-interest angle? They got in once, they could get in again.

Besides, once we end the drug war, the prisons will be sort of empty, gotta put someone in there

Good luck with that, they're far too profitable to end the drug war.

Reasonable doubt.

I'm more asking of who would interpret the extradition of a violent criminal as hate speech.

As much as I am conflicted between what I think is right or wrong, I don't find any reason to go after Ravael in such a hypocritical fashion.

He's one of the very few conservative posters, while a staunch defender of his party, he's also been equally condemning of the extreme gaffes coming from them as well.

And while I've hashed it out with Amandarius before as well, I think he's grown quite a bit politically and is at least willing to take part in more intellectual debates - even if his stances haven't or won't change. I rarely agree or like anything he posts, but he's not afraid to speak his mind without sweeping generalizations that condemn one side, and protect the other. This is another area I think he's grown in quite a lot since I first took part in the PnR debates - he's dropped the personal attacks by far. Almost to a point where he doesn't use them, and can attack the ideology or politics themselves.

I do my reading and play catch up, and see many things that ravael posts that I can almost agree with when he's being serious, and some things I do agree with - although would be great if they were expanded upon.

I also think that, while many posters here seem to be tired of fone's posts, I think he's important to this forum, and the levity he brings is equally important, otherwise we stop having fun with politics, and get far too serious about ourselves, and become over-opinionated and over defensive without looking at things critically from opposing angles to our baser viewpoints.

While I've stayed away from the more serious postings, and posting in PnR for a while, I thought it was important to post what I was thinking in here - and about the people who try to bring things to a higher level of discussion without resorting to personal attacks. Even those on the opposite of the political ideologies.

I could say nice things about the people who I generally see as right, but not all of them deserve it, and others can manage to stand on their own merit. And aren't being attacked unfairly.

Still, I don't think the majority of people here can truly appreciate having people to butt heads with ideologically or politically because they only know and only care to know, what they are being told (this goes for both sides, and everywhere in between, including myself. I won't try to absolve myself from it because I've been guilty of it in the past, and will probably be in the future as well)

I'm completely new to this forum.

Also, he tends to go after me. Here's the pattern.

I come in, say something I noticed about the right wing, and he comes in with one of two responses: either he claims I'm generalizing or he invokes false equivalence.

In case you're not aware, we have quite a history together.

And there was nothing off with anything I said. When you visit as many political forums, read through the comment section of as many articles as I do, you get a feel for what different fractions are thinking. Just because what I say doesn't apply to 100% of people in a group, doesn't mean the idea isn't mainstream within the group.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying observing the civil war within the GOP right now, so I'll be the first to admit that the field isn't as homogeneous as it was in 2012. Due to the nature of my job, I get to sit back and watch various idea bubbles grow and shrink within the GOP. What I did was point out some of the more prevalent bubbles in the dish. And they are prevalent, you can trust me on this one.

If you don't like that, then I guess we can't say anything about either side because, as I said, there isn't a single belief that everyone on either side believes in.

=>
Lol. Thought it was funny.

What did I miss? Did something happen to Ravael?

Any answer I can give to that would be pure speculation, lol.
The fact that such unreasonable people actually exist out there is a bit much for me to try to think about. Actually seeking them out might make my headsploed.

You didn't miss much just the usual.


Trump hates illegals. Republicans hate women illegals and baby giraffes.

I call ***, especially since you and I have gone at it in this forum for years.

Ok, some things are lost in print, but you KNOW he posts here from time to time, and the rest of his post describes it. It is plain and obvious sarcasm. Why must you oppose every poster?

Except how would Rooks know? I highly doubt he paid attention to P&R section before he became mod, and sarcasm wasn't obvious as you think it was.

But hey, for somebody who called me out on opposing "every" poster, you certainly like to comment on nearly every single one of my posts lately.

I know you love me, but damn, there's got to be a limit....

It hadn't occurred to you that nearly every single one of your posts was directed at me?

Strange, I believe I was responding to Ihina before.

And I do know I talk to other people too, like Pleebo, Rav, Amand, Nausi, Chaos, Fone, and so-on/so-forth.

But when did it go from "every poster" to "just you"?

I'm calling racism if Swapnil doesn't win on Project Runway. Head and shoulders above the rest.

Blake sucks.

Amanda is the worst.

Heidi Klum is a Nazi.

What is Protect Runway?

A couple people said nice things about him, so he's probably dead.

In my opinion, that jerk had it coming.

A reality show based on fashion and design.

I actually watch Project Runway it is more interesting than most reality TV competitions.

"Reality TV" is one of the main reasons I have boycott TV since 1998