Random Politics & Religion #00

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2010-06-21
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Random Politics & Religion #00
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 00:53:53  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
So all you people that think guns are the problem and we need to make more laws, confiscate, or down right get rid of them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/at-least-two-killed-in-austria-after-man-drives-into-crowd-before-stabbing-passersby-in-graz-10333891.html

My word, 3 dead in Australia since they outlawed guns 15 years ago. Yeah, there's plenty of ways to kill people if you want to. We've had more people killed in mass shootings in the last week than Australia has in a decade. Accessibility to guns definitely plays a part in that difference.

You do know the difference between Austria and Australia, right?

Yeah, I misread it without my glasses. My point still stands.
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 00:54:10  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
So all you people that think guns are the problem and we need to make more laws, confiscate, or down right get rid of them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/at-least-two-killed-in-austria-after-man-drives-into-crowd-before-stabbing-passersby-in-graz-10333891.html

My word, 3 dead in Australia since they outlawed guns 15 years ago. Yeah, there's plenty of ways to kill people if you want to. We've had more people killed in mass shootings in the last week than Australia has in a decade. Accessibility to guns definitely plays a part in that difference.

To bad your word is a complete and total lie.
Quote:
t is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 00:54:43  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Yeah, I misread it without my glasses. My point still stands.

No, it doesn't.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 01:06:58  
1. We're talking about mass shootings, not singular acts of violence.

2. Australia's violent crime rate has continued a similar downward trend across almost all areas. Those numbers are heavily cherry-picked.

3. Australia has had 1 mass shooting in the last 20 years since the gun ban.

National Journal

Washington Post

Snopes

Rape rate in Australia is 5% higher than USA

It's also the only crime statistic where we rate better than Australia. Get your information from someone other than the NRA.
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 01:23:03  
Odin.Jassik said: »
We're talking about mass shootings
No kidding..

Odin.Jassik said: »
Those numbers are heavily cherry-picked.

You think yours are not? Hahaha.

Odin.Jassik said: »
Get your information from someone other than the NRA.
Good ole stereotyping.

Just to play along we are talking about populations of 23mil vs. 300mil. Austria has 8mil people btw. Do we need to have a discussion about statistics now?
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 01:39:10  
Your numbers are from a post on Free Republic, which are sourced from an NRA publication almost verbatim. I linked 4 different sources, all showing the same thing.

Also, rates are percentages, not totals. And while smaller pools will result in more volatile numbers, they aren't incompatible.

Australia has a fraction as many people, but they also have a fraction as many violent crimes. That's why they're expressed as a ratio (per one million people).

Also, that giant spike in violent crime in your example, it was a single incident that skewed the numbers for one year, the year their gun ban began. Look at the actual trends in various violent crimes that are listed in the articles I posted.
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 01:44:22  
Actually I got it from here.
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

Odin.Jassik said: »
that giant spike in violent crime in your example, it was a single incident that skewed the numbers for one year, the year their gun began.
Mind pointing that out?

This?
Quote:
In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

You mean they still have guns even though they banned them! The insanity!
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-21 01:52:41  
I tried to find a link between the NRA and UK's news outlet, The Independent, but no link was found.

I tried to find a similar link between the NRA and The Washington (D.C.) Examiner, no such link was found except that it's a conservative based source rather than The Independent, which is listed as center-left.

Someone is playing partisan politics here.

Perhaps there's a confusion between the NRA and the NCPA. Almost similar letters, but completely different organizations.

NRA = Nation Rifle Association.
NCPA = National Center for Policy Analysis

NCPA states:
Quote:
It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.

While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.
AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

Although it [NCPA] states a non-partisan stance, it is labeled as a conservative think tank.

In short though, banning guns does not appear to have any affect on crime statistics, other than 'feels.'

Speaking of which there's this article:

Quote:
"How is it that we as a nation still allow guns to fall into the hands of people whose hearts are filled with hate?" said Democratic presidential frontrunner Hillary Clinton Saturday, her voice rising as she delivered her prepared remarks. "You can't watch massacre after massacre and not come to the conclusion that, as President Obama said, we must tackle this challenge with urgency and conviction."

"We can have common-sense gun reforms that keep them out of the hands of criminals and the mentally unstable while not penalizing responsible gun owners," Clinton said to sustained applause, as half of the 1,000 member San Francisco mayoral conference audience stood, reported USA Today.

Clinton's call for "common-sense" restrictions on firearms comes in the wake of Wednesday's Charleston, S.C., mass shooting by a 21-year-old white gunman that left nine black church members dead.

"It makes no sense that bipartisan legislation to require universal background checks would fail in Congress despite overwhelming public support," said Clinton, alluding to proposals put forth by Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Pat Toomey, R-Pa., after the Newtown elementary school shooting."It makes no sense that we couldn't come together to keep guns out of the hands of domestic abusers or people suffering from mental illness, even people on the terror watch list."

"I am not and will not be afraid to keep fighting for common-sense reforms and, along with you, achieve those on behalf of all who have been lost because of this senseless gun violence in our country," she said, reported the Hill.

Clinton also called for a serious national discussion on race, citing white people's fear of "the sight of young black man in a hoodie," "the offhand comment about not wanting 'those' people in the neighborhood," or "the cruel joke that goes unchallenged," as examples. "We can't hide from any of these hard truths about race and justice in America," she said. "We have to name them and own them and then change them."

"Once again, bodies are being carried out of a black church," she said. "It is tempting to dismiss [this tragedy] as an isolated incident."

"Just as earlier generations threw off the chains of slavery, and then segregation and Jim Crow — this generation will not be shackled by fear and hate," said Clinton.
Clinton: How do we 'allow guns to fall into the hands' of haters?

But then there's this:

Quote:
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun," says Wayne LaPierre, the vice president of the National Rifle Association.

That's become the kernel of the NRA's response to recent US mass shooting tragedies (such as Wednesday's massacre of nine people in a Charleston church) — if only more people carried guns for protection, the thinking goes, then they would be less likely to be victimised by gun-wielding criminals.

The challenge to that argument is that, data shows, guns are rarely used in self-defence in the US — especially relative to the rate at which they're used in criminal homicides or suicides. A recent report from the Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group, put those numbers in some perspective, and I dug up the raw numbers from the FBI's homicide data. Take a look:


In 2012, there were 8,855 criminal gun homicides in the FBI's homicide database, but only 258 gun killings by private citizens that were deemed justifiable, which the FBI defines as "the killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen."

That works out to one justifiable gun death for every 34 unjustifiable gun deaths.

Or, look at it this way. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data shows that in 2012 there were 20,666 suicides by gun. That works out to one self-defence killing for every 78 gun suicides. CDC data shows that there were more than twice as many accidental gun fatalities as justifiable killings.

There are, of course, plenty of solid arguments for robust 2nd Amendment protections. Millions of people use guns for sport and recreation every day. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible citizens, not criminals.

But, though some people certainly use guns for self-defence, the data suggests that overall, guns are used far more often for killing then self-defence. As a result, it's may be thinking twice about arguments for more guns in schools, churches and other public places.
Charleston shooting: For every criminal killed in self-defence in the US, 34 innocent people die

So in conclusion:

Quote:
He has 18 months left to fulfill his "Yes we can" agenda, but President Obama is frustratingly finding that his supporters have already forgotten what he's done and even think he's an "idiot" for not making good on his promise to fix Washington.

In a candid fundraising speech at actor Tyler Perry's Santa Monica, Calif., home Thursday night, the president expressed his own frustration at not scoring more wins in his two terms, but also aired distress at how quickly some of have forgotten his achievements.

"I got a letter a while back from a gentleman living in Colorado, and clearly an intelligent guy, and he had taken a lot of time to write this letter. And he said, you know, I voted for you twice, but I'm feeling disillusioned,'" Obama said.

"And I get letters, people say, 'You are an idiot,' and here's what you didn't do, and here's the program that is terrible, and all kinds of stuff. But this gentleman, he said, I voted for you twice but I'm deeply disappointed. And it went on and on, chronicling all the things that hadn't gotten done," added Obama.

While he didn't detail the writer's frustrations, Obama, who previously noted how the economy has come back, jobs are growing and the future looks brighter, said "he seemed to have forgotten everything that had happened and how he had benefitted."

The president told Democratic donors that writer's angst was probably directed at Washington's division and his inability to unite the parties.

"The core I think of his concern, the core of his complaint was that he thought that when I got to Washington I could bring people together and make them work more effectively," he said. "And on that issue, I had to tell him, you're right. I am frustrated, and you have every right to be frustrated, because Congress doesn't work the way it should."

But not for lack of trying, even though he senses Americans don't think he has.

"Sometimes I feel like people forgot the essence of my pledge when I ran for president. What I promised — I said to people, I said, I am not a perfect man I will not be a perfect president, but I promise you I will wake up every single day and I will go to bed every single night thinking about how to make sure that ordinary Americans have a chance. And I will fight as hard as I can, and I'll be as honest and straightforward as I can about what I believe can open up the doors of opportunity to everybody. That pledge I've kept," said the president.

Frustrations aside, the president said that he still plans big things and revived his call for supporters to stand behind him and help.

"If we keep that faith and fight off cynicism, then 20 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, people are going to say, okay, they ran the good race and we're further along and America is better and more just, and opportunity is more real for more people," the president concluded.
Obama says supporter writes him: 'You're an idiot'
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 01:56:25  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Perhaps there's a confusion between the NRA and the NCPA. Almost similar letters, but completely different organizations.

Well in his defense he doesn't know the difference between Austria and Australia. So this comes as no surprise.

Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Obama says supporter writes him: 'You're an idiot'
Clearly, racist.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-21 01:57:23  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Your numbers are from a post on Free Republic, which are sourced from an NRA publication almost verbatim. I linked 4 different sources, all showing the same thing.
Ah, never mind then. I see you already have this fully researched.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-21 01:58:34  
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Perhaps there's a confusion between the NRA and the NCPA. Almost similar letters, but completely different organizations.

Well in his defense he doesn't know the difference between Austria and Australia. So this comes as no surprise.
He got a mulligan on that one, lol.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 01:58:56  
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Actually I got it from here.
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

Odin.Jassik said: »
that giant spike in violent crime in your example, it was a single incident that skewed the numbers for one year, the year their gun began.
Mind pointing that out?

Yes, and this is the source of that article.

Quote:
Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," Free Republic, April 9, 2009.

For text:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2225517/posts

It's a cut and paste of a propaganda article by a "newspaper" that's funded by the NRA.

Fact Check

Most recent Aus government numbers

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Well in his defense he doesn't know the difference between Austria and Australia. So this comes as no surprise.

You posted an article to rebut a discussion about the gun ban in Australia. You're the last person who gets to question others' knowledge.
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 02:03:22  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Perhaps there's a confusion between the NRA and the NCPA. Almost similar letters, but completely different organizations.

Well in his defense he doesn't know the difference between Austria and Australia. So this comes as no surprise.
He got a mulligan on that one, lol.

More like deflecting away from this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/at-least-two-killed-in-austria-after-man-drives-into-crowd-before-stabbing-passersby-in-graz-10333891.html
Which he accomplish quite well.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-21 02:07:37  
Oh P&R how I missed you.
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 02:08:12  
Odin.Jassik said: »
You posted an article to rebut a discussion about the gun ban in Australia. You're the last person who gets to question others' knowledge.

That even though they have a massively smaller population than us AND banned guns they still have gun violence? Yup, good job proving me wrong on w/e you think you proved me wrong about. Keep on deflecting!
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 02:16:28  
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
You posted an article to rebut a discussion about the gun ban in Australia. You're the last person who gets to question others' knowledge.

That even though they have a massively smaller population than us AND banned guns they still have gun violence? Yup, good job proving me wrong on w/e you think you proved me wrong about. Keep on deflecting!

Austria has a violent crime rate of 0.7 per 1,000 people. Our is 5.5

I know a single incident of violent crime not involving a gun gives you a ***, but it is not a trend and doesn't mean crap on a larger scale.

Once again, crime rates are based on a ratio, crimes per x amount of people.

Australia still has guns, by the way, it's just not a right guaranteed by law and the types and ammunition are restricted. Yes, they're going to have gun crime, even if they completely outlawed it, but they have lower violent crime rates, significantly lower violent crime involving guns, significantly lower murder rates with and without guns, significantly lower suicide rates, and no mass shootings.

Speaking of deflecting, care to address the dubious nature of the original article you posted?
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 02:32:59  
Nothing dubious about it. I'm also well aware Australia still has guns. I'm also aware that Australia, Austria, and America all start with the letter A and the similarities start differing drastically from there.

One thing remains however, guns or not, crazy people going to find a way to kill no matter what. You blame guns, I blame people.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 02:39:44  
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Nothing dubious about it. I'm also well aware Australia still has guns. I'm also aware that Australia, Austria, and America all start with the letter A and the similarities start differing drastically from there.

One thing remains however, guns or not, crazy people going to find a way to kill no matter what. You blame guns, I blame people.

I am not blaming guns for anything, can you find a place where I blamed guns? However, mass shootings don't take place without them. There is a causal relationship between access to guns and number of mass shootings.

You want to own guns, that's fine, I own them too. But, just because you want something doesn't change the nature of reality, and grabbing all the propaganda you can find to support what you want is a pathetic way to justify something. If you want to own guns, just say that, and skip the ridiculous tapdance.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-21 03:38:54  
Odin.Jassik said: »
There is a causal relationship between access to guns and number of mass shootings.
There is also a casual relationship between drowning and water.
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By fonewear 2015-06-21 07:37:22  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
There is a causal relationship between access to guns and number of mass shootings.
There is also a casual relationship between drowning and water.

If a gun could he would kill you and your entire family !
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By fonewear 2015-06-21 09:02:13  
Since it is father's day I thought I'd check out what the women of the world are thinking:

TLDR: I guess you can't tell a girl she has "daddy issues"

Source: jezebel.com
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 09:44:37  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
There is a causal relationship between access to guns and number of mass shootings.
There is also a casual relationship between drowning and water.


That's kinda the point. The places that have far fewer guns don't generally have higher crime rates and they do not have mass shootings. If nothing else changed by limited access to guns than mass shootings stopped, it would be a net gain.
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 12:39:23  
For someone who doesn't blame guns, you sure sound like someone who blames guns.

Odin.Jassik said: »
However, mass shootings don't take place without them.

Odin.Jassik said: »
If nothing else changed by limited access to guns than mass shootings stopped, it would be a net gain.

Odin.Jassik said: »
Accessibility to guns definitely plays a part in that difference.
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By fonewear 2015-06-21 12:44:12  
I have access to a lot of knives those are deadly weapons also !
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-21 12:51:32  
fonewear said: »
I have access to a lot of knives those are deadly weapons also !

Just don't get in a car with them.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-06-21 12:57:34  
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
fonewear said: »
I have access to a lot of knives those are deadly weapons also !

Just don't get in a car with them.

Nah, in Fone's case it's not so bad. He has plenty of room in his van.

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By fonewear 2015-06-21 13:28:56  
Nothing wrong with free candy !
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-06-21 13:40:41  
Get rid of all guns in the world, gun violence ceases, but non-gun violence skyrockets.

Because people are very creative in how to kill one another....
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-21 16:12:03  
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
For someone who doesn't blame guns, you sure sound like someone who blames guns.

Odin.Jassik said: »
However, mass shootings don't take place without them.

Odin.Jassik said: »
If nothing else changed by limited access to guns than mass shootings stopped, it would be a net gain.

Odin.Jassik said: »
Accessibility to guns definitely plays a part in that difference.

Do I need to get you the definition of blame? People kill people, but access to guns makes it much easier and results in more deaths. The simple fact is that disturbed and angry people aren't able to commit mass shootings without guns and places where guns are less available have fewer or no mass shootings.

If you're adamant that guns should be as easy to get as a pack of gum, how do you intend to keep people from obtaining them for the purpose of killing dozens of innocent people? Or do you think mass shootings are just fine and you don't care?
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