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Random Politics & Religion #00
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-05-05 12:56:08
So what?
Are we not allowed to have a prison simply because we on some occasions incarcerate innocent people?
EDIT: I mean don't take this to mean that I advocate for false imprisonment, but our current justice system functions better than it ever has in the h1story of humankind doesn't it? Why do you think this is true? Why do you think it isn't? /readys Nausi voice
Nice dodge man! Why don't you just answer the question!
quit deflecting!
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By fonewear 2015-05-05 12:56:14
It takes a village to raise a child...or so the Clinton legacy was told !
 Bahamut.Milamber
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-05 12:57:13
Surprisingly, it seems that you didn't actually read the article thoroughly.
Quote: This devilish twist of evidence surely leads to a further conclusion—that perhaps in the interests of levelling the playing field, bedtime stories should also be restricted. In Swift’s mind this is where the evaluation of familial relationship goods goes up a notch.
‘You have to allow parents to engage in bedtime stories activities, in fact we encourage them because those are the kinds of interactions between parents and children that do indeed foster and produce these [desired] familial relationship goods.’
Swift makes it clear that although both elite schooling and bedtime stories might both skew the family game, restricting the former would not interfere with the creation of the special loving bond that families give rise to. Taking the books away is another story.
‘We could prevent elite private schooling without any real hit to healthy family relationships, whereas if we say that you can’t read bedtime stories to your kids because it’s not fair that some kids get them and others don’t, then that would be too big a hit at the core of family life.’
It does bring up an interesting concept, though. There is this idea that the only way to create equality is to make everyone equally miserable, because it's far easier than making everyone equally happy. Why buoy up the disadvantaged when you can just hack at the knees of the elite? The article does bring up interesting concepts, but that certainly isn't one of them.
 Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-05-05 12:57:41
I wish one day to see Nausi post in a way that focuses on people's actual thoughts rather than ideal political ideologies all the time.
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サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-05-05 12:58:03
This is how crazy liberal ideas get started.
I'm pretty sure they start with these.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-05 12:58:06
Damnit!
What's the count at now KN?
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 12:58:37
but I think it's safe to say that Portugal isn't exactly the most fitting control group. Why?
You do understand the concept of a control group, right? And you do realize that things that work in one country don't always work in others? Any factor that differentiates the control group from the rest is a lurking variable, and there are tons in this case. I didn't say it wouldn't work, I just think it's stupid to assume it would just because it worked in a different country.
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Bahamut.Milamber
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-05 12:58:49
Surprisingly, it seems that you didn't actually read the article thoroughly.
Quote: This devilish twist of evidence surely leads to a further conclusion—that perhaps in the interests of levelling the playing field, bedtime stories should also be restricted. In Swift’s mind this is where the evaluation of familial relationship goods goes up a notch.
‘You have to allow parents to engage in bedtime stories activities, in fact we encourage them because those are the kinds of interactions between parents and children that do indeed foster and produce these [desired] familial relationship goods.’
Swift makes it clear that although both elite schooling and bedtime stories might both skew the family game, restricting the former would not interfere with the creation of the special loving bond that families give rise to. Taking the books away is another story.
‘We could prevent elite private schooling without any real hit to healthy family relationships, whereas if we say that you can’t read bedtime stories to your kids because it’s not fair that some kids get them and others don’t, then that would be too big a hit at the core of family life.’
Was Plato a liberal? Of course he was.
"I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally."
This is how crazy liberal ideas get started. By people that don't read the articles?
Quote: ‘I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally,’ quips Swift.
Bahamut.Milamber
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-05 13:00:27
but I think it's safe to say that Portugal isn't exactly the most fitting control group. Why?
You do understand the concept of a control group, right? And you do realize that things that work in one country don't work in others? Any factor that differentiates the control group from the rest is a lurking variable, and there are tons in this case. I didn't say it wouldn't work, I just think it's stupid to assume it would just because it worked in a different country. So, why wouldn't Portugal be a fitting control group?
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Bahamut.Milamber
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-05 13:00:58
This is how crazy liberal ideas get started.
I'm pretty sure they start with these.
Hey now, we can't talk about those kinds of things here. For shame!
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-05-05 13:01:07
Surprisingly, it seems that you didn't actually read the article thoroughly.
Quote: This devilish twist of evidence surely leads to a further conclusion—that perhaps in the interests of levelling the playing field, bedtime stories should also be restricted. In Swift’s mind this is where the evaluation of familial relationship goods goes up a notch.
‘You have to allow parents to engage in bedtime stories activities, in fact we encourage them because those are the kinds of interactions between parents and children that do indeed foster and produce these [desired] familial relationship goods.’
Swift makes it clear that although both elite schooling and bedtime stories might both skew the family game, restricting the former would not interfere with the creation of the special loving bond that families give rise to. Taking the books away is another story.
‘We could prevent elite private schooling without any real hit to healthy family relationships, whereas if we say that you can’t read bedtime stories to your kids because it’s not fair that some kids get them and others don’t, then that would be too big a hit at the core of family life.’
It does bring up an interesting concept, though. There is this idea that the only way to create equality is to make everyone equally miserable, because it's far easier than making everyone equally happy. Why buoy up the disadvantaged when you can just hack at the knees of the elite? The article does bring up interesting concepts, but that certainly isn't one of them.
Welp if it doesn't spell out hacking the knees specifically, it can't possibly mean it amirite?
(Milamber logic)
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-05 13:01:22
I wish one day to see Nausi post in a way that focuses on people's actual thoughts rather than ideal political ideologies all the time. 
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-05-05 13:01:40
This is how crazy liberal ideas get started.
I'm pretty sure they start with these.
Hey now, we can't talk about those kinds of things here. For shame!
as long as we aren't naked we can!
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Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-05-05 13:03:16
Surprisingly, it seems that you didn't actually read the article thoroughly.
Quote: This devilish twist of evidence surely leads to a further conclusion—that perhaps in the interests of levelling the playing field, bedtime stories should also be restricted. In Swift’s mind this is where the evaluation of familial relationship goods goes up a notch.
‘You have to allow parents to engage in bedtime stories activities, in fact we encourage them because those are the kinds of interactions between parents and children that do indeed foster and produce these [desired] familial relationship goods.’
Swift makes it clear that although both elite schooling and bedtime stories might both skew the family game, restricting the former would not interfere with the creation of the special loving bond that families give rise to. Taking the books away is another story.
‘We could prevent elite private schooling without any real hit to healthy family relationships, whereas if we say that you can’t read bedtime stories to your kids because it’s not fair that some kids get them and others don’t, then that would be too big a hit at the core of family life.’
Was Plato a liberal? Of course he was.
"I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally."
This is how crazy liberal ideas get started. By people that don't read the articles?
Quote: ‘I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally,’ quips Swift.
Guise, it was only a QUIP.
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-05-05 13:03:22
but I think it's safe to say that Portugal isn't exactly the most fitting control group. Why?
You do understand the concept of a control group, right? And you do realize that things that work in one country don't always work in others? Any factor that differentiates the control group from the rest is a lurking variable, and there are tons in this case. I didn't say it wouldn't work, I just think it's stupid to assume it would just because it worked in a different country. Why?
What about Portuguese humans makes them fundamentally different from American humans?
Well, I can name one thing: back in 2000, they had a far worse drug problem than the USA has ever had. Every method currently used by other Western countries completely failed. So they took a different tack and it has worked phenomenally well.
I could name a bunch of other places that have enacted similar policies around other illegal objects and activities with similar levels of success. This isn't a lone, isolated case, it's just the most prominent one when it comes to substance decriminalization.
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-05-05 13:04:22
What about Portuguese humans makes them fundamentally different from American humans? Portugueses are known to be very sad. So I guess that skews the drug statistics!
Bahamut.Milamber
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-05 13:06:03
Surprisingly, it seems that you didn't actually read the article thoroughly.
Quote: This devilish twist of evidence surely leads to a further conclusion—that perhaps in the interests of levelling the playing field, bedtime stories should also be restricted. In Swift’s mind this is where the evaluation of familial relationship goods goes up a notch.
‘You have to allow parents to engage in bedtime stories activities, in fact we encourage them because those are the kinds of interactions between parents and children that do indeed foster and produce these [desired] familial relationship goods.’
Swift makes it clear that although both elite schooling and bedtime stories might both skew the family game, restricting the former would not interfere with the creation of the special loving bond that families give rise to. Taking the books away is another story.
‘We could prevent elite private schooling without any real hit to healthy family relationships, whereas if we say that you can’t read bedtime stories to your kids because it’s not fair that some kids get them and others don’t, then that would be too big a hit at the core of family life.’
It does bring up an interesting concept, though. There is this idea that the only way to create equality is to make everyone equally miserable, because it's far easier than making everyone equally happy. Why buoy up the disadvantaged when you can just hack at the knees of the elite? The article does bring up interesting concepts, but that certainly isn't one of them.
Welp if it doesn't spell out hacking the knees specifically, it can't possibly mean it amirite?
(Milamber logic)
*sigh*
Quote: The test they devised was based on what they term ‘familial relationship goods’; those unique and identifiable things that arise within the family unit and contribute to the flourishing of family members. In a lot of senses, trying to identify particular actions or activities which actively contribute to a family unit is a pretty good idea.
Again, you actually might want to read the article you posted.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2015-05-05 13:06:30
Guise, it was only a QUIP. Be honest. Did you read past the headline before you posted the link?
Seraph.Ramyrez
サーバ: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-05 13:08:52
"We couldn't say not Portuguese but...ahh...no Portuguese."
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By fonewear 2015-05-05 13:10:05
I don't know anything about Portugal expect the capital is Lisbon !
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 13:12:01
but I think it's safe to say that Portugal isn't exactly the most fitting control group. Why?
You do understand the concept of a control group, right? And you do realize that things that work in one country don't work in others? Any factor that differentiates the control group from the rest is a lurking variable, and there are tons in this case. I didn't say it wouldn't work, I just think it's stupid to assume it would just because it worked in a different country. So, why wouldn't Portugal be a fitting control group?
Am I the only one thinking like a scientist here? Look up the freaking scientific method and how experiments are designed. You cannot make generalizations about the outcome of an experiment and extrapolate it to unrelated groups unless they accurately match the control group. GDP, population, religious influences, ethnicity, drug preference, drug availability, healthcare costs (or lack thereof), healthcare quality, media influences, etc. can all play a role. Holy crap, do I need to go on?
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By fonewear 2015-05-05 13:14:58
but I think it's safe to say that Portugal isn't exactly the most fitting control group. Why?
You do understand the concept of a control group, right? And you do realize that things that work in one country don't work in others? Any factor that differentiates the control group from the rest is a lurking variable, and there are tons in this case. I didn't say it wouldn't work, I just think it's stupid to assume it would just because it worked in a different country. So, why wouldn't Portugal be a fitting control group?
Am I the only one thinking like a scientist here? Look up the freaking scientific method and how experiments are designed. You cannot make generalizations about the outcome of an experiment and extrapolate it to unrelated groups unless they accurately match the control group. GDP, population, religious influences, ethnicity, drug preference, drug availability, healthcare costs (or lack thereof), healthcare quality, media influences, etc. can all play a role. Holy crap, do I need to go on?
The last thing I want is to learn about the scientific method. You keep your science discussions to yourself mister !
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By fonewear 2015-05-05 13:16:59
Aristotle described at length what was involved in having scientific knowledge of something. To be scientific, he said, one must deal with causes, one must use logical demonstration, and one must identify the universals which 'inhere' in the particulars of sense. But above all, to have science one must have apodictic certainty. It is the last feature which, for Aristotle, most clearly distinguished the scientific way of knowing
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 13:18:03
Aristotle described at length what was involved in having scientific knowledge of something. To be scientific, he said, one must deal with causes, one must use logical demonstration, and one must identify the universals which 'inhere' in the particulars of sense. But above all, to have science one must have apodictic certainty. It is the last feature which, for Aristotle, most clearly distinguished the scientific way of knowing
That's pretty deep for a Ninja Turtle. Wait, he was one of the Ninja Turtles, right?
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-05-05 13:18:37
Holy crap, do I need to go on? Yes. Because right now you're flailing hardcore trying to find some way to argue against something you don't personally like.
I don't personally like the idea, either, but the results in Portugal (and Colorado and Amsterdam and other places that have changed their policies on this and similar problems) are compelling, especially contrasted with the colossal failure of the alternative method.
Since the War on Drugs started, drugs are now cheaper, more plentiful, and purer. More people are sitting in US prisons as a direct result of ineffective policies. Drug-related violence skyrocketed when it previously barely existed.
***, just look at Prohibition. There's really no meaningful difference between alcohol and heroin if, you know, you actually read the scientific data.
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By fonewear 2015-05-05 13:19:29
I believe Aristotle was the one that used nunchuks !
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 13:21:58
Holy crap, do I need to go on? Yes. Because right now you're flailing hardcore trying to find some way to argue against something you don't personally like.
No, I'm saying it's stupid to assume that it would work just because it worked somewhere else. I'm down for whatever works best, but it would require a lot more thought and research than "hey, look at Portugal!"
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Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-05-05 13:23:42
Swift in particular has been conflicted for some time over the curious situation that arises when a parent wants to do the best for her child but in the process makes the playing field for others even more lopsided.
‘I got interested in this question because I was interested in equality of opportunity,’ he says.
‘I had done some work on social mobility and the evidence is overwhelmingly that the reason why children born to different families have very different chances in life is because of what happens in those families.’
Swift is conflicted about parents who in doing things for their children unbalance the game for others and contribute to an unequal balance of opportunity.
In the end Swift agrees that all activities will cause some sort of imbalance—from joining faith communities to playing Saturday cricket—and it’s for this reason that a theory of familial goods needs to be established if the family is to be defended against cries of unfairness.
‘We should accept that lots of stuff that goes on in healthy families—and that our theory defends—will confer unfair advantage,’ he says.
He's pretty clear in his point that "healthy families", those reading to their kids (amongst other things) confer an unfair advantage.
Then, does the child have a right to be parented by her biological parents? Swift has a ready answer.
‘It’s true that in the societies in which we live, biological origins do tend to form an important part of people’s identities, but that is largely a social and cultural construction. So you could imagine societies in which the parent-child relationship could go really well even without there being this biological link.’
Finally they throw out there the idea that mom and dad don't really need to be the parents. Could the solution he's hinting at be somewhat akin to the further dissolving of parental rights so that every kids ultimately gets the same kind of opportunity social justice?
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-05-05 13:25:24
Holy crap, do I need to go on? Yes. Because right now you're flailing hardcore trying to find some way to argue against something you don't personally like.
No, I'm saying it's stupid to assume that it would work just because it worked somewhere else. I'm down for whatever works best, but it would require a lot more thought and research than "hey, look at Portugal!" "Hey, look at Colorado!"
"Hey, look at the Netherlands!"
"Hey, look at Serbia!"
"Hey, look at the United States!"
You're ignoring the evidence and then whining about scientific method. I thought you, alone, were better than that.
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 13:27:02
The evidence is anecdotal at best. If being rational and not jumping to conclusions is a mark against my record, then each mark is a badge of honor.
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