Random Politics & Religion #00 |
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Random Politics & Religion #00
Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » fonewear said: » Teachers make 26,000 a year I'm buying a Toyota Corolla ! Is this based on numbers that include inner city public schools that involve constant threat to person for teachers and students raised by deadbeat parents/grandparents to not give a ***? $49,000 is the starting wage for public school teachers in the city of chicago. Private schools around chicago are more along the lines of $30,000.
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Ramyrez said: » Asura.Kingnobody said: » Ramyrez said: » Asura.Kingnobody said: » Yeah, that's not going to happen. For one thing, it would create a disincentive to invest/hire new employees. For another thing, you would just come right back where you started. Remember, unions were created by a group of people who decided that they hate their jobs enough to go boss employers around, and after they became unemployable, created their union to give members the illusion that they are out for the good of the union, never mind that unions help destroy companies and create ineffective and uncompetitive businesses. ...that's an interesting take on things. Apparently they've been doctoring Texas textbooks for quite some time... Unions were started to ensure safety, fair pay and benefits for workers who were blatently mistreated. Now, it's unlikely white collar workers are going to get black lung in today's workplace, but employers are still going to do everything they can to screw over workers and workers need a way to fight back. Quote: You do know that you can start a union legally with just 3 people, right? Yeah. You know how that ends? *fired *new workers for less pay* Here is a source that shows how to start one. You can get legal status before your employer ever realizes what's going on in most cases. But guess what, even in "right-to-work" states and "at-will" states, when a union is formed, it is still illegal to fire somebody based on their union status. Yeah, there will be another excuse, but they cannot fire you automatically or within a specific timeline except for "just cause." And the burden of proof is on the employer, which for most businesses, is too much of a hassle to deal with. And not being employed doesn't mean that the union dissolves either. So, firing the employee does nothing to the union itself, and the employer still has to deal with the union, even if the representatives no longer works there. I think it's strange that I, who am strongly against unions, have more knowledge of unions than you, who are strongly for unions.... Only threats teachers in my area are having is having sex with their students.
Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Constant threat to person? Where do you even come up with this stuff? Is there some kind of violence against teachers epidemic that I was unaware of? Don't blame the teachers blame the students and their families! $49,000 is the starting wage for public school teachers in the city of chicago. Private schools around chicago are more along the lines of $30,000. ...okay, yeah. Apparently you've never been to a poor section of a city. Teaching in the inner city is not something I'd consider safe. And yes. I will blame students and parents. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to be taught because they've been brought up to not care. Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » I guess I just don't understand why you think all teachers teach because it was some kind of calling. For a lot of them it's just a job like your job is to you. A way to bring in income. I went to a college with an extremely well-regarded teaching program. I know and am related to many teachers. I don't know a single one who does it because it's "just a job". There's far too much that goes into it, emotionally and as a time investment, for it to be "just a job". If we want to go by stories like that though I can tell you all about how some teachers don't feel the need to show up for their first period classes at times or how they grab up extra classes for the extra money and then don't want to teach them. I have an ex that became a teacher just because she didn't like what she was doing at the time and teaching seemed like it'd be easy to get into. I had a HS teacher that used to get hammered every day and then sleep during class. It's not to say that there aren't excellent teacher out there because there are. Just like in anything else though not everyone is in it for altrustic reasons or even performs at their best or ever required level. Again, clearly I'm just thinking with feels and trying to look out for people who actually do work, rather than those who lord over them and collect more money for less work, or those who sit and criticize without investing themselves.
It's one big microcosm for "why the middle class is disappearing" around here today. -.-; Lakshmi.Flavin said: » how they grab up extra classes for the extra money and then don't want to teach them Private school problem? Perhaps exacerbated by too low of a salary? :p Last I checked public school teachers don't work like that. Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Constant threat to person? Where do you even come up with this stuff? Is there some kind of violence against teachers epidemic that I was unaware of? Don't blame the teachers blame the students and their families! $49,000 is the starting wage for public school teachers in the city of chicago. Private schools around chicago are more along the lines of $30,000. ...okay, yeah. Apparently you've never been to a poor section of a city. Teaching in the inner city is not something I'd consider safe. And yes. I will blame students and parents. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to be taught because they've been brought up to not care. This reminds me of some posts from Magnus awhile back. He wasn't even there for more than a couple of weeks and he had already started to give up and blame his students and how they didn't want to learn and such. Do you think if we gave him an extra $50,000 a year he'd be more motivated? There are definitely a lot of challenging students but it's the teachers job to work with that and find a way to motivate them. It just seems kind of ridiculous to flat out blame the ones that are there to be taught. Granted things with the system do need to be changed around a bit but yeah the blame does not lie full with the students and their families lol. Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » how they grab up extra classes for the extra money and then don't want to teach them Private school problem? Perhaps exacerbated by too low of a salary? :p Last I checked public school teachers don't work like that. This is chicago public schools. Base salaray is already right around family median income for americans and they are guranteed fixed raises every year. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Again you'd be wrong. My brother teaches at an inner city chicago school and he complains more about his fellow teachers than his students. I'm talking specifically about "taking more classes for more money". I've never heard of a public school that works that way. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » It just seems kind of ridiculous to flat out blame the ones that are there to be taught. Granted things with the system do need to be changed around a bit but yeah the blame does not lie full with the students and their families lol. Granted yes, there are bad teachers, but seriously. Motivating an unmotivated student and trying to teach English to a juvenile criminal who shows up 50% of the time are two different things. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » If they pick up coaching jobs take up clubs, extra classes or pick up work doing driver's ed through the school they get paid extra for all those things. Clubs/sports/etc. aren't "extra classes". I don't know about driver's ed; it was taught at our school, but it was over the summer and wasn't taught by a teacher from our school. I've never seen "extra classes" (beyond summer school) that teachers could "opt in" to. A class was taught or it wasn't. I've never seen a coach or club oversight teacher that wasn't really into their job. Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Again you'd be wrong. My brother teaches at an inner city chicago school and he complains more about his fellow teachers than his students. I'm talking specifically about "taking more classes for more money". I've never heard of a public school that works that way. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » It just seems kind of ridiculous to flat out blame the ones that are there to be taught. Granted things with the system do need to be changed around a bit but yeah the blame does not lie full with the students and their families lol. Granted yes, there are bad teachers, but seriously. Motivating an unmotivated student and trying to teach English to a juvenile criminal who shows up 50% of the time are two different things. Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » If they pick up coaching jobs take up clubs, extra classes or pick up work doing driver's ed through the school they get paid extra for all those things. Clubs/sports/etc. aren't "extra classes". I don't know about driver's ed; it was taught at our school, but it was over the summer and wasn't taught by a teacher from our school. I've never seen "extra classes" (beyond summer school) that teachers could "opt in" to. A class was taught or it wasn't. I've never seen a coach or club oversight teacher that wasn't really into their job. It also works for when the school adds extra classes. They give them out on priority for whoever has been there the longest too. It's not a volunteer and we pick the best person based off class load and other such things it's based solely on if you want it, it's in your field and have you been there longer than the other person that wants it too. Asura.Kingnobody said: » Ramyrez said: » Asura.Kingnobody said: » Ramyrez said: » Asura.Kingnobody said: » Yeah, that's not going to happen. For one thing, it would create a disincentive to invest/hire new employees. For another thing, you would just come right back where you started. Remember, unions were created by a group of people who decided that they hate their jobs enough to go boss employers around, and after they became unemployable, created their union to give members the illusion that they are out for the good of the union, never mind that unions help destroy companies and create ineffective and uncompetitive businesses. ...that's an interesting take on things. Apparently they've been doctoring Texas textbooks for quite some time... Unions were started to ensure safety, fair pay and benefits for workers who were blatently mistreated. Now, it's unlikely white collar workers are going to get black lung in today's workplace, but employers are still going to do everything they can to screw over workers and workers need a way to fight back. Quote: You do know that you can start a union legally with just 3 people, right? Yeah. You know how that ends? *fired *new workers for less pay* Here is a source that shows how to start one. You can get legal status before your employer ever realizes what's going on in most cases. But guess what, even in "right-to-work" states and "at-will" states, when a union is formed, it is still illegal to fire somebody based on their union status. Yeah, there will be another excuse, but they cannot fire you automatically or within a specific timeline except for "just cause." And the burden of proof is on the employer, which for most businesses, is too much of a hassle to deal with. And not being employed doesn't mean that the union dissolves either. So, firing the employee does nothing to the union itself, and the employer still has to deal with the union, even if the representatives no longer works there. I think it's strange that I, who am strongly against unions, have more knowledge of unions than you, who are strongly for unions.... Going back to criminal prosecution of collective bargaining (e.g. prior to Commonwealth vs. Hunt) is a horrible idea.
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Motivating an unmotivated student is part of their job. It's not necassarily supposed to be easy. Will they always succeed? Probably not. You don't just absolve them from blame and just lay it all on the people there supposed to be there to help. So how much of their time should they This is why standardized testing is also a farce. That, and then teachers are teaching based on what's on some worthless test and not any material that actually helps students learn anything about the world or themselves. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » If they pick up coaching jobs take up clubs, extra classes or pick up work doing driver's ed through the school they get paid extra for all those things. Clubs/sports/etc. aren't "extra classes". I don't know about driver's ed; it was taught at our school, but it was over the summer and wasn't taught by a teacher from our school. I've never seen "extra classes" (beyond summer school) that teachers could "opt in" to. A class was taught or it wasn't. I've never seen a coach or club oversight teacher that wasn't really into their job. It also works for when the school adds extra classes. They give them out on priority for whoever has been there the longest too. It's not a volunteer and we pick the best person based off class load and other such things it's based solely on if you want it, it's in your field and have you been there longer than the other person that wants it too. It's starting to sound to me like your state is just *** up, and you're countering my anecdotal evidence with your own. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Motivating an unmotivated student is part of their job. I would say that's the parent's responsibility.
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Bahamut.Milamber said: » Careful you two. Flav will get on your *** too. How dare you suggest parents or students are to blame for a student's shortcomings. It's always the teacher. Then again, I maintain he probably just likes to get my goat and doesn't actually give a damn, just wanting to draw me into this ***. I don't know why I keep letting him do it. Surely this has been posted before, but hey. It's valid. 
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Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Motivating an unmotivated student is part of their job. It's not necassarily supposed to be easy. Will they always succeed? Probably not. You don't just absolve them from blame and just lay it all on the people there supposed to be there to help. So how much of their time should they This is why standardized testing is also a farce. That, and then teachers are teaching based on what's on some worthless test and not any material that actually helps students learn anything about the world or themselves. Why would you have to neglect students that actually want to learn? Sure there are bad eggs out there. How does a teacher go about determining which kids they should just give up on and which are worth their time? Is teaching only worthwhile if you have only the best and most eager students? The rest would just refer to daycares? Standardized tests seem to be more about getting funding and showing some kind of basic level of understanding but yeah not altogether helpful. A lot of the cirriculum is that way anyways. I've always been a fan of finding a way to implement more common sense classes that prepare kids for life beyond the classroom. No one really seems to be able to agree on how it should all be done though or how it can be monitored to make sure its showing signs of success and actually being implemented. All wrapped up in state and union ***. Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Ramyrez said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » If they pick up coaching jobs take up clubs, extra classes or pick up work doing driver's ed through the school they get paid extra for all those things. Clubs/sports/etc. aren't "extra classes". I don't know about driver's ed; it was taught at our school, but it was over the summer and wasn't taught by a teacher from our school. I've never seen "extra classes" (beyond summer school) that teachers could "opt in" to. A class was taught or it wasn't. I've never seen a coach or club oversight teacher that wasn't really into their job. It also works for when the school adds extra classes. They give them out on priority for whoever has been there the longest too. It's not a volunteer and we pick the best person based off class load and other such things it's based solely on if you want it, it's in your field and have you been there longer than the other person that wants it too. It's starting to sound to me like your state is just *** up, and you're countering my anecdotal evidence with your own. It's their responsibility too. Idk what you guys think teachers are supposed to be doing in class if their not even responsible for being part of the motivation that makes kids want to learn lol.
Lakshmi.Flavin said: » The rest would just refer to daycares? Inversely, I think trying to "not leave children behind" *ahem* is a big reason why schools are frequently just viewed as daycare these days. Ramyrez said: » Bahamut.Milamber said: » Careful you two. Flav will get on your *** too. How dare you suggest parents or students are to blame for a student's shortcomings. It's always the teacher. Then again, I maintain he probably just likes to get my goat and doesn't actually give a damn, just wanting to draw me into this ***. I don't know why I keep letting him do it. Surely this has been posted before, but hey. It's valid. It's not always the teacher thats to blame. It's also not always the student or family to blame either which you seem to think. You should go into one of these inner city schools you seem to like to think you know a lot about and see if your assessment of teachers changes at all. There are some pretty amazing ones out there along with some really shitty ones. It's ludicrous to think that all teachers are out for some noble purpose though and to think we should blindly hold every one of them in the highest regard. If you guys are going to argue about education standards and methods and all that jazz, I've got a slideshow for you: Finland's education system.
I've been saying since I was in school that the Prussian system we use just doesn't work. But that's because it wasn't strictly meant to teach students knowledge and abilities so much as obedience and conformity.
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Shiva.Onorgul said: » Finland's education system. that was interesting. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » You should go into one of these inner city schools you seem to like to think you know a lot about and see if your assessment of teachers changes at all. I'm aware there are bad teachers in the inner city. But you're not getting my point as to why. 1) Not paid enough to deal with 2) students that have no interest in learning and can be downright hostile. This is where you start to get the "teaching just because it's a job" crowd, and the downward spiral continues. Really it's almost two entirely different sets of issues, teaching in poor and/or inner city areas and teaching in affluent areas. Shiva.Onorgul said: » If you guys are going to argue about education standards and methods and all that jazz, I've got a slideshow for you: Finland's education system. But without an evaluation system we can't see who is best, and therefore, we can't see who wins! IT CAN'T BE 'MURRICAN WITHOUT A WINNER. Bahamut.Milamber said: » The answer to the problem with the major unions in the US isn't to get rid of unions, or collective bargaining. Bahamut.Milamber said: » Going back to criminal prosecution of collective bargaining (e.g. prior to Commonwealth vs. Hunt) is a horrible idea. |
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