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Random Politics & Religion #00
 Valefor.Endoq
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6906
By Valefor.Endoq 2015-12-15 03:31:08
Saying that the government funds anything at all is a misnomer.
It is the people who fund the government to allocate that funded money back to the people.
Here is one of my terribly written examples trying to explain this another way:
Does the bank pay your rent?
Or do you pay your rent?
You write a check to pay your rent and the bank uses your money to make that check go through.
This is no different than us paying money to the government to allocate throughout these systems of order.
But it is not their money.
They get to keep their own wages for providing support of this system of order. But those wages are not relevant. Those wages they make are not the same money that pays for our schools.
That money was taken from the citizen and does not belong to the government any more than the money you put into the bank belongs to the bank. That money is yours. The bank allocates that money to where you direct it to go. The bank collects a small fee to pay for this service, but that money they allocate from your bank account to the places you choose (such as rent) does not becomes the banks money just because it is passing through their hands. And It obviously doesn't mean the bank funds your rent.
(anyways.. I suck at analogies)
That's a dubious analogy at best, I'd think.
When taxes are levied and accumulated, the money is no longer the taxpayer's (as an individual or as a group.) No single taxpayer can indicate that they wish the funds go to what they desire (a new stop-sign or traffic light, or a subsidy on furre-pr0n, etc.) The money is spent by institutions with various levels of public oversight, with (hopefully) some elected representative overseeing or directing that expenditure, but either way it's not "my money" anymore except only in the most obtuse "well I pay your salary as a taxpayer so you have to do whatever I tell you to" sort of logic.
You desire to 'pay the rent' (specific purpose) with your taxes, and you write your virtual cheque to the government expecting that result, but instead your taxes are spent on a bridge project in upstate New York (purpose determined by a elected-representative bureaucracy.) LOL That's kind of where the analogy of "beholden unto the taxpayer's interests" fails.
Furthermore, the whole point of banks as financial institutions is that they actually *do* play with your money (and everyone's money)...that is how they grow their business. They take all capital entrusted to them and withhold enough to cover daily transactions, but actually invest the rest into various projects (yes, as if it actually belonged to them, which in effect is does at that point) with varying degrees of return-on-investment. That is why banks are so keen on getting new clients with huge amounts of residual capital, and are also keen on avoiding "runs" on the bank (i.e. periods of client panicking where many clients withdraw capital savings simultaneously) not simply out of altruistic virtue to hold people's money in a safe location for them. :p
In the US, the "FDIC" ensures that clients are protected to a degree (a flat amount) if a bank fails...if the money still conceptually belonged entirely to the client then the client would be entitled to the full amount instead, but they are not no?
So in that same sort of "pooled money" logic, the bank does actually fund your rent, as your money might be off in some investment scheme on the other side of the world. :p
George.Bailey said: I don't have your money. It's in Tom's house... and Fred's house. Well what the hell's it doing in Tom's house or Fred's house--let's go over there and get it back! ^_- (answering the bolded part)
We actually can decide by voting to find the common interest for our taxes to be spent on.
Fenrir.Schutz
サーバ: Fenrir
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Posts: 3122
By Fenrir.Schutz 2015-12-15 03:36:24
(answering the bolded part)
We actually can decide by voting to find the common interest for our taxes to be spent on.
While that is true for things like bond measures, that isn't the case for allocated discretionary funding spending. Not all government spending is directly affected by popular vote, nor is all affected by elected representatives. Some spending is determined by non-elected officials. The extent of the popular vote on any one of these levels of oversight varies greatly, and certainly isn't the same thing ever as "I want to pay the rent with my money--here's the cheque...go pay the rent for me." ^^
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Valefor.Endoq
サーバ: Valefor
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Posts: 6906
By Valefor.Endoq 2015-12-15 03:45:18
(answering the bolded part)
We actually can decide by voting to find the common interest for our taxes to be spent on.
While that is true for things like bond measures, that isn't the case for allocated discretionary funding spending. Not all government spending is directly affected by popular vote, nor is all affected by elected representatives. Some spending is determined by non-elected officials. The extent of the popular vote on any one of these levels of oversight varies greatly, and certainly isn't the same thing ever as "I want to pay the rent with my money--here's the cheque...go pay the rent for me." ^^ And that is part of the flaw in our system.
There shouldn't be any non-elected officials spending tax money on programs.
There needs to be more voting, and voting needs to be taken more seriously.
This is something I would like to see changed.
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By maldini 2015-12-15 05:19:50
Enough cherry picking tidbits out of my(and others) comments out of their context.
If you want to quote me then quote my entire post because the entire post is the context and removing any of it will change the meaning.
There is no context, public schools are government funded, period. And the government is funded by the American citizens.
The government got all of their money from us.
So tell me how does the government fund anything at all?
 Bahamut.Kara
サーバ: Bahamut
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Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-12-15 07:10:14
Schools are not a government office.
So separation of church/state should not apply to schools.
Many people make it sound as if the schools are teaching religion by allowing students/teachers to be religious.
This is simply not the case.
Establishment clause actually protects schools right to have religion because they are not a government office. Schools do not call the shots in our government like a government office does.
Just because the government funds something does not make it part of the government.
I and my household have been funded by the government in the past.
Does this funding take away my right to religion in my house? What....
Schools are run by the states. Public schools curriculum is decided via locally elected officials under state guidlines from the state education boards and politicians.
Teachers are considered state employees.
Public schools are very much part of the government.
By maldini 2015-12-15 07:11:37
At what point are the rational and mentally competent Republicans going to wake up? Quote: Poll: Donald Trump leads GOP field with widest margin so far
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Donald Trump's lead over the Republican field has widened to its largest margin so far in a new poll taken after his proposal to temporarily ban Muslims from entering the U.S.
A new national Washington Post-ABC News poll released Tuesday found that Trump attracted 38 percent support from registered Republicans and Republican-leaning independents. Ted Cruz moved into second, with 15 percent, twice what his support was last month.
Marco Rubio of Florida and Ben Carson each earned 12 percent support in the survey -- Carson's numbers dropped by about half over the past month. Jeb Bush received 5 percent among registered Republicans.
On Monday, a Monmouth University poll similarly found Trump expanding his lead, with 41 percent of GOP voters backing Trump for president, up 13 percentage points since mid-October. That poll also had Ted Cruz in second place.
Play VIDEO
Trump widens lead but rivals make gains
The Post-ABC poll found that in a general election matchup Trump would trail Democratic frontrunner by 50 percent to 44 percent among registered voters.
Just 29 percent of Americans said they would feel comfortable with Trump as president, versus 47 percent who would feel comfortable with Clinton in the top office. Sixty-nine percent of adults said they would feel anxious if Trump were president.
The Washington Post pointed out that even though the first voting contest is less than 50 days out, "national polls are not always the reliable predictors of where presidential nominating contests are heading." Newt Gingrich was tied with Mitt Romney at this point four years ago. In December 2007, Rudy Giuliani and Hillary led the field at this time in national polls, and neither of them won the nomination of their respective parties.
The Post-ABC poll was conducted Thursday through Sunday Dec. 10-13 among a random national sample of 1,002 adults reached on conventional and cellular telephones. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. The error margin is plus or minus six points among the sample of 362 Republican and Republican-leaning registered voters.
edit: I want you all to try and curl your lips the way Donald Trump does when he talks. Do you notice how you feel a couple of hundred trillion braincells dumber?
Now try saying something serious with lips still curled.
 Caitsith.Zahrah
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-12-15 08:08:37
Ugh...I'm confused. Are we arguing with people who only attended private, parochial schools, and have made it to adulthood not knowing the difference? What is going on here?
 Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-12-15 08:11:48
Muslim nations form coalition to fight terror, call Islamic extremism 'disease'
Quote: Calling Islamic extremism a disease, Saudi Arabia has announced the formation of a coalition of 34 predominately Muslim nations to fight terrorism.
"This announcement comes from the Islamic world's vigilance in fighting this disease so it can be a partner, as a group of countries, in the fight against this disease," Saudi Deputy Crown Prince and Defense Minister Mohammed bin Salman said.
The coalition's formation comes as the West has stepped up its war against ISIS, which is also known by its Arabic acronym Daesh.
"Today there are a number of countries that suffer from terrorism, for example Daesh in Syria and Iraq; terrorism in Sinai, terrorism in Yemen, terrorism in Libya, terrorism in Mali, terrorism in Nigeria, terrorism in Pakistan, terrorism in Afghanistan and this requires a very strong effort to fight," Salman said. "Without a doubt, there will be coordination in these efforts."
Coalition's joint operations center will be based in Riyadh.
In addition to Saudi Arabia, the coalition will include Jordan, the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Benin, Turkey, Chad, Togo, Tunisia, Djibouti, Senegal, Sudan, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Gabon, Guinea, the Palestinians, Comoros, Qatar, Cote d'Ivoire, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Maldives, Mali, Malaysia, Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria and Yemen.
[...]
"There's been the idea that ISIS is a bigger challenge for Iran and its allies than it is for the Arab states, even though this feeling is changing now," said Fawaz Gerges, a professor of Middle Eastern Studies at the London School of Economics.
"ISIS has threatened not only Iran and the [Shia]-dominated regimes in Iraq and Syria but even the Sunni-dominated Arab states."
Whether the new coalition amounts to any real change in fighting ISIS remains to be seen.
"ISIS doesn't just exist in Syria and Iraq -- it has major constituency supporters in almost all Arab countries, including Saudi, Kuwait, Lebanon and Jordan. So they want to really minimize the risks," Gerges said.
It's something that has prompted many Arab states to take a low profile up to this point and could still suppress any response in the future even with the announcement of the coalition.
This while Saudi and Yemen signed a ceasefire and are negotiating peace.
By volkom 2015-12-15 08:33:50
Was watching Ancient Aliens last night (i know i know...)
It was a recent episode about how many historical/archaeological sites in the middle east are being looted/defaced/destroyed etc by isis. They had quite a bit of footage and it was heartbreaking to see structures that have been around 100s-1000s of years being blown up. The thought of such artifacts being destroyed like that is depressing.
Then it got weird~the whole ancient aliens theory that all the areas where ancient civilizations were located are places of conflict. From middle/latin america, north africa, middle east and to india ~ /shrug
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By Jassik 2015-12-15 08:48:40
I want you all to try and curl your lips the way Donald Trump does when he talks. Do you notice how you feel a couple of hundred trillion braincells dumber?
By Jetackuu 2015-12-15 09:00:30
Enough cherry picking tidbits out of my(and others) comments out of their context.
If you want to quote me then quote my entire post because the entire post is the context and removing any of it will change the meaning. Don't blame others for your poor English skills, and lack of understanding.
By Jetackuu 2015-12-15 09:01:41
Saying that the government funds anything at all is a misnomer. No, it isn't.
By Jetackuu 2015-12-15 09:02:26
And to clear up some more confusion about schools and taxes:
State money is the taxes we pay to live in the state. The federal government has no business getting involved in a state run public school. It can go down as far as the county level I think. Many schools answer to no one, except the parents.
But federal government funding basically gives the school money to implement certain programs, and in order for the school to receive the money they have to submit to any rules the federal government throws at them. If a school takes federal money the federal government basically takes over the school and can implement w/e it wants. (This is how common core has crept into our schools.)
This is why the whole conversation is confusing to people. Once the federal government gets involved in a state run school, while the money is nice, freedom is lost.
Wrong, in so many ways.
By Jetackuu 2015-12-15 09:05:12
Schools are not a government office.
So separation of church/state should not apply to schools.
Many people make it sound as if the schools are teaching religion by allowing students/teachers to be religious. Establishment clause actually protects schools right to have religion because they are not a government office.
To use your own words:
This is simply not the case.
Administrator
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Posts: 701
By Drama Torama 2015-12-15 09:05:33
This thread got real dumb, real fast. I mean, at least attempt to engage in enlightened discourse.
By Jetackuu 2015-12-15 09:07:47
I want you all to try and curl your lips the way Donald Trump does when he talks. Do you notice how you feel a couple of hundred trillion braincells dumber? That thing is scary, sir.
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-12-15 09:08:21
This thread got real dumb, real fast. I mean, at least attempt to engage in enlightened discourse. What do you expect from people who get insulted by songs?
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Forum Moderator
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-12-15 09:09:49
This thread got real dumb, real fast. I mean, at least attempt to engage in enlightened discourse. What do you expect from people who get insulted by songs? Protest tunes?
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By Jetackuu 2015-12-15 09:11:20
The thought of such artifacts being destroyed like that is depressing.
Indeed. I mean all of the things they do are horrible, at least most serve a purpose (kill all infidels or whatever, still bad) but that's just pointless destruction.
Administrator
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By Drama Torama 2015-12-15 09:13:56
What do you expect from people who get insulted by songs?
To be fair, some music is legitimately offensive. YouTube Video Placeholder
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-12-15 09:15:44
What do you expect from people who get insulted by songs?
To be fair, some music is legitimately offensive. YouTube Video Placeholder Maybe, but to some people in this thread, this is the most offensive song to them:
YouTube Video Placeholder
By Jetackuu 2015-12-15 09:16:38
This thread got real dumb, real fast. I mean, at least attempt to engage in enlightened discourse. o.o
By fonewear 2015-12-15 09:18:18
This thread got real dumb, real fast. I mean, at least attempt to engage in enlightened discourse.
You must be new here !
サーバ: Phoenix
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Posts: 3686
By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-12-15 09:29:02
Ugh...I'm confused. Are we arguing with people who only attended private, parochial schools, and have made it to adulthood not knowing the difference? What is going on here?
Not sure what's going on. Are people still pretending that singing a song is worship? Are they still twisting the Establishment Clause into their own license to hate? Some people just want the right to never be annoyed but for a hateful, angry person that is impossible.
It's a commentary about how truly delicate Americans have become. It is bad enough that we have raised college students to be completely intolerant of ideas they have been programmed to disagree with. One of the most valuable aspects of education is supposed to be the exposure to different cultures and traditions that are not your own including American traditions. If you think that millennials are a bunch of pussies just wait until the kids in grade school now get to be 25 years old.
Teachable moment:
Student: "What does that mean 'Christ the Savior is born'?"
Teacher: "Oh, Christians believe in a man called Jesus that when he died went to heaven. They believe that if you follow what he taught then they will go to heaven. There are many other religions though that teach many other things."
**And something called education happens**
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Forum Moderator
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-12-15 09:34:17
What do you expect from people who get insulted by songs?
To be fair, some music is legitimately offensive. YouTube Video Placeholder YouTube Video Placeholder
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Caitsith.Zahrah
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-12-15 09:55:08
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »Ugh...I'm confused. Are we arguing with people who only attended private, parochial schools, and have made it to adulthood not knowing the difference? What is going on here?
Not sure what's going on. Are people still pretending that singing a song is worship? Are they still twisting the Establishment Clause into their own license to hate? Some people just want the right to never be annoyed but for a hateful, angry person that is impossible.
It's a commentary about how truly delicate Americans have become. It is bad enough that we have raised college students to be completely intolerant of ideas they have been programmed to disagree with. One of the most valuable aspects of education is supposed to be the exposure to different cultures and traditions that are not your own including American traditions. If you think that millennials are a bunch of pussies just wait until the kids in grade school now get to be 25 years old.
Teachable moment:
Student: "What does that mean 'Christ the Savior is born'?"
Teacher: "Oh, Christians believe in a man called Jesus that when he died went to heaven. They believe that if you follow what he taught then they will go to heaven. There are many other religions though that teach many other things."
**And something called education happens**
See, I can sort of actually agree with you on this, but no one here outright ever said they were offended by Christmas music. Liturgical pieces written by Tchaikovski, Bach and Lizst were a part of Primary school music programs, and those are of cultural significance.
If there was any indication to how delicate the US has become, I would say that having award ceremonies that reward children for academic excellence and participation in UIL scholastic competitions and science fairs being removed from school hours, as to not offend non-recipients'/non-participants' parents, is more concerning than Christmas carols. That's what's been happening here in the past two years, at least.
Also, removing a fun, cultural study of Dio de Los Muertos in a Spanish class (in a border state) to placate those who see it as a pagan celebration is equally as silly. (Not delving father into that.)
Everyone needs to learn to pick their battles. Some are trivial.
No one here has used the Establishment Clause to espouse hatred. If anything, it was more conscientiousness.
Bahamut.Omael
サーバ: Bahamut
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Posts: 400
By Bahamut.Omael 2015-12-15 10:04:06
What do you expect from people who get insulted by songs?
To be fair, some music is legitimately offensive. YouTube Video Placeholder YouTube Video Placeholder 
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-12-15 10:05:13
"You come down from the stars, oh King of the Heavens
And come to suffer in the cold of a cave.
Oh child, my Divine, I see you shivering
Oh Blessed God
And how much did it cost you to have loved us.
To you who are the Creator of the world
Missing clothes and warmth, oh my Lord
Dear elected child
How much this poverty makes me love you more
And because of love you became poorer.
You leave the comforting joy of the divine bosom
To arrive here and suffer on this hay
Sweet love of my heart, where did love lead you?
Oh my Jesus, why so much pain?
Because of your love for me.
But if your pain was your choice
Why do you want to cry?
My Jesus, I understand you
Ah, my Lord!
You cry not for pain but for love!
You cry cause you see me ungrateful
After such a big love, so little love received
Oh beloved of my chest
If it was like this once, I only yearn for you now
Dear don't cry anymore because I love you.
You sleep my baby, but meanwhile the heart
Doesn't sleep, no, but watches over us at all hours
My beautiful and pure Lamb
What are you thinking about? Tell me, oh immense love
'One day I died for you', I think you answer.
So of dying for me you think, oh God
And can I love anything else other than you?
Oh Mary, my hope
If I don't love your Jesus enough, please don't take offense
Love Him for me, if I don't know how to love."
This is sung while passing around a statue of baby Jesus that everyone should kiss.
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By fonewear 2015-12-15 10:33:54
I think we should ban Muslims from singing Christmas songs. That will show em !
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 Garuda.Chanti
サーバ: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11397
By Garuda.Chanti 2015-12-15 11:00:13
Schools are not a government office.
So separation of church/state should not apply to schools.
Many people make it sound as if the schools are teaching religion by allowing students/teachers to be religious.
This is simply not the case.
Establishment clause actually protects schools right to have religion because they are not a government office. Schools do not call the shots in our government like a government office does.
Just because the government funds something does not make it part of the government.
I and my household have been funded by the government in the past.
Does this funding take away my right to religion in my house? What.... Its called rationalization.
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Random Politics & Religion is for topics that aren't thread worthy on their own and do not have their own existing thread.
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With that out of the way, let the debates begin!
/bow
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