Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Because the education system is not about exclusion. Your solution that non-believers should simply opt-out (by ditching, lol) is not a viable one.
Random Politics & Religion #00
Random Politics & Religion #00
So, give us a real-life example of singing Christmas songs is compulsory to everyone, and that exclusion is not allowed by punishment.
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I was in the top school choir in my city. We were invited to a variety of holiday functions and catered our songs to whomever we were singing for. We had many atheists in the choir and a Jew, and nobody was forced to sing anything that they didn't feel comfortable singing. Nobody opted out because they were more interested in singing for the fun of it and honing their craft instead of whining and complaining. Heck, we even sang Hava Nagila that year and had a blast doing it. Call the freaking wambulance.
Thats a nice story but what does it have to do with religion in schools?
It was a school choir occasionally singing religious music, which apparently most of you think should be super illegal. I thought that was obvious, but then again I'm dealing with a special crowd here.
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I was in the top school choir in my city. We were invited to a variety of holiday functions and catered our songs to whomever we were singing for. We had many atheists in the choir and a Jew, and nobody was forced to sing anything that they didn't feel comfortable singing. Nobody opted out because they were more interested in singing for the fun of it and honing their craft instead of whining and complaining. Heck, we even sang Hava Nagila that year and had a blast doing it. Call the freaking wambulance.
Thats a nice story but what does it have to do with religion in schools?
It was a school choir occasionally singing religious music, which apparently most of you think should be super illegal. I thought that was obvious, but then again I'm dealing with a special crowd here.
Otherwise, they might just run away.
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Because the education system is not about exclusion. Your solution that non-believers should simply opt-out (by ditching, lol) is not a viable one.
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Is it Black History month again? That is the only holiday I celebrate!
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Josiahkf said: »
If these schools did pageants and plays in February for Hindu new year for example and it was about praying for the blessing of a bountiful rainy season, perfectly harmless. How many North American parents would be like, "oh it's harmless fun, suck it up. Let all the kids do this. My son and your son can be Vishnu."
Instead it's sadly very hypocritical and most likely the school would get in deep ***. That is why people argue about this on principle.
Instead it's sadly very hypocritical and most likely the school would get in deep ***. That is why people argue about this on principle.
Most people wouldn't like public schools to do nativity pageants and plays either, so I don't see what's so hypocritical. Honestly I think it'd be cool to see more Hindu celebrations. Here in Utah we've got the Krishna Temple Festival of Colors and far more Christians participate in that than anyone else, from what I've seen. Give everyone the chance to have their holidays represented in school so that culture can be celebrated and students can learn from each other. It sounds better to me than sweeping it all under the rug.
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I was in the top school choir in my city. We were invited to a variety of holiday functions and catered our songs to whomever we were singing for. We had many atheists in the choir and a Jew, and nobody was forced to sing anything that they didn't feel comfortable singing. Nobody opted out because they were more interested in singing for the fun of it and honing their craft instead of whining and complaining. Heck, we even sang Hava Nagila that year and had a blast doing it. Call the freaking wambulance.
Thats a nice story but what does it have to do with religion in schools?
It was a school choir occasionally singing religious music, which apparently most of you think should be super illegal. I thought that was obvious, but then again I'm dealing with a special crowd here.
Because there are no people in a grey area that looked at the catalyst article and thought, "Well, that's overkill." Then, looked at the typical, predictable reaction of ultra-conservatives here, and thinks, "You might be just as nutty as that principal."
Merry Christmas!
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We have a ***culture cause we value feels more than anything.I blame Jews Muslims Christians and Athiests. You all suck! Merry Christmas.
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Josiahkf said: »
If these schools did pageants and plays in February for Hindu new year for example and it was about praying for the blessing of a bountiful rainy season, perfectly harmless.
Remember, we shouldn't "force" harmless things on people, even though they have the option of not attending said event or participate with those who want to attend or be in said event.
But according to them, they are forced under execution to attend such petty events. They can't run away from said events. Ask Pleebo, he is forced to attend all these events by threat of execution.
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You got it wrong when it doesn't rain...you do a rain dance.
Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I was in the top school choir in my city. We were invited to a variety of holiday functions and catered our songs to whomever we were singing for. We had many atheists in the choir and a Jew, and nobody was forced to sing anything that they didn't feel comfortable singing. Nobody opted out because they were more interested in singing for the fun of it and honing their craft instead of whining and complaining. Heck, we even sang Hava Nagila that year and had a blast doing it. Call the freaking wambulance.
Thats a nice story but what does it have to do with religion in schools?
It was a school choir occasionally singing religious music, which apparently most of you think should be super illegal. I thought that was obvious, but then again I'm dealing with a special crowd here.
Because there are no people in a grey area that looked at the catalyst article and thought, "Well, that's overkill." Then, looked at the typical, predictable reaction of ultra-conservatives here, and thinks, "You might be just as nutty as that principal."
Merry Christmas!
Do we have ninja ultra-conservatives in here that only you can see? Show yourselves, I say!
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Josiahkf said: »
Wanting the blessing of a bountiful rainy season does not equate to the origin story of Jesus Christ Ravael, it equates to normal Christmas carols.
If I had said "let's tell the story of thousands of years ago and the first gods." Yeah you'd have a point.
If I had said "let's tell the story of thousands of years ago and the first gods." Yeah you'd have a point.
I'm sure there's a rain god in Egyptian texts somewhere.
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I was in the top school choir in my city. We were invited to a variety of holiday functions and catered our songs to whomever we were singing for. We had many atheists in the choir and a Jew, and nobody was forced to sing anything that they didn't feel comfortable singing. Nobody opted out because they were more interested in singing for the fun of it and honing their craft instead of whining and complaining. Heck, we even sang Hava Nagila that year and had a blast doing it. Call the freaking wambulance.
Thats a nice story but what does it have to do with religion in schools?
It was a school choir occasionally singing religious music, which apparently most of you think should be super illegal. I thought that was obvious, but then again I'm dealing with a special crowd here.
Because there are no people in a grey area that looked at the catalyst article and thought, "Well, that's overkill." Then, looked at the typical, predictable reaction of ultra-conservatives here, and thinks, "You might be just as nutty as that principal."
Merry Christmas!
Do we have ninja ultra-conservatives in here that only you can see? Show yourselves, I say!
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Josiahkf said: »
If these schools did pageants and plays in February for Hindu new year for example and it was about praying for the blessing of a bountiful rainy season, perfectly harmless.
Remember, we shouldn't "force" harmless things on people, even though they have the option of not attending said event or participate with those who want to attend or be in said event.
But according to them, they are forced under execution to attend such petty events. They can't run away from said events. Ask Pleebo, he is forced to attend all these events by threat of execution.
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Josiahkf said: »
If these schools did pageants and plays in February for Hindu new year for example and it was about praying for the blessing of a bountiful rainy season, perfectly harmless.
Remember, we shouldn't "force" harmless things on people, even though they have the option of not attending said event or participate with those who want to attend or be in said event.
But according to them, they are forced under execution to attend such petty events. They can't run away from said events. Ask Pleebo, he is forced to attend all these events by threat of execution.
Don't forget to scream at the top of your voice while you run. It adds to the effect.
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Josiahkf said: »
If these schools did pageants and plays in February for Hindu new year for example and it was about praying for the blessing of a bountiful rainy season, perfectly harmless. How many North American parents would be like, "oh it's harmless fun, suck it up. Let all the kids do this. My son and your son can be Vishnu."
Instead it's sadly very hypocritical and most likely the school would get in deep ***. That is why people argue about this on principle.
Instead it's sadly very hypocritical and most likely the school would get in deep ***. That is why people argue about this on principle.
Most people wouldn't like public schools to do nativity pageants and plays either, so I don't see what's so hypocritical. Honestly I think it'd be cool to see more Hindu celebrations. Here in Utah we've got the Krishna Temple Festival of Colors and far more Christians participate in that than anyone else, from what I've seen. Give everyone the chance to have their holidays represented in school so that culture can be celebrated and students can learn from each other. It sounds better to me than sweeping it all under the rug.
Enuyasha said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Josiahkf said: »
If these schools did pageants and plays in February for Hindu new year for example and it was about praying for the blessing of a bountiful rainy season, perfectly harmless. How many North American parents would be like, "oh it's harmless fun, suck it up. Let all the kids do this. My son and your son can be Vishnu."
Instead it's sadly very hypocritical and most likely the school would get in deep ***. That is why people argue about this on principle.
Instead it's sadly very hypocritical and most likely the school would get in deep ***. That is why people argue about this on principle.
Most people wouldn't like public schools to do nativity pageants and plays either, so I don't see what's so hypocritical. Honestly I think it'd be cool to see more Hindu celebrations. Here in Utah we've got the Krishna Temple Festival of Colors and far more Christians participate in that than anyone else, from what I've seen. Give everyone the chance to have their holidays represented in school so that culture can be celebrated and students can learn from each other. It sounds better to me than sweeping it all under the rug.
I can see where you're coming from on that. I still think you're going to have less xenophobia going around if kids are allowed to experience such things, though. Like it or not, understanding world religions plays a huge part in understanding people and why they do the things that they do, and if we're not preparing children for a globalized society then we're just stuck in an arcane way of thinking under the guide of "progression". You don't have to endorse any religion to do that.
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There's a difference between teaching ABOUT religion, and teaching religion. There's plenty of ways to do the former without the later.
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jassik said: »
Those feeble minds sue and win because they're right. I'm sure you would rather have no christmas in school than have them paying out large chunks of an already meager budget in judgments and legal fees.
Lol. They're "right"? Let's take a look at one of the few cases that the Supreme Court actually heard. Lynch v. Donnelly
Yes, they are right. A school is a learning institution, and by the same Kurtzman decision, cannot have any religious symbolism. A Creche on a public lawn is not the same as jesus and angels in a school, and there is a ton a case law that explains why. In fact, both Lynch v Donnelly and Lemon v Kurtzman clearly state why it's different.
Yes, those mean litigious atheists are right.
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »
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Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jassik said: »
Those feeble minds sue and win because they're right. I'm sure you would rather have no christmas in school than have them paying out large chunks of an already meager budget in judgments and legal fees.
Lol. They're "right"? Let's take a look at one of the few cases that the Supreme Court actually heard. Lynch v. Donnelly
Yes, they are right. A school is a learning institution, and by the same Kurtzman decision, cannot have any religious symbolism. A Creche on a public lawn is not the same as jesus and angels in a school, and there is a ton a case law that explains why. In fact, both Lynch v Donnelly and Lemon v Kurtzman clearly state why it's different.
Yes, those mean litigious atheists are right.
You are really extrapolating here with the Lemon v Kurtzman case. Saying that giving state aid to church related schools is not permissible is not the same thing as saying there can be no religious symbolism in schools. Lynch v. Donnelly doesn't mention schools either. In another case concerning "under God" in the pledge recited by school children, "Rehnquist's opinion asserts the term 'under God' does not endorse or establish religion but it actually asserts that the term merely acknowledges the nation's religious heritage, in particular the role of religion for the Founding Fathers of the United States. Thus, according to the opinion, the Pledge is a secular act rather than an act of indoctrination in religion or expression of religious devotion."
Sorry, the law is not nearly as cut and dry against any mention of God in school as you like to pretend it is.
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2 things
Read part 3 of the Lemon v Kurtzman decision concerning the Lemon test. Read more than the first couple lines of each opinion.
Read one of the dozens of lower court cases regarding the establishment clause and public schools. It's been challenged and upheld many times that as teachers and facilitators are in a position of influence and children are not adept, religious symbolism will always be considered curricular. Think of it like statutory rape, they can't give consent because they are not able to understand it and because the staff are in a position of power.
Rehnquist was also dead wrong about our country's religious heritage, and was one of the original religious justices that paved the way for hacks like Scalia. Some of the founders were religious, but they were all very clear about it's place in government.
Read part 3 of the Lemon v Kurtzman decision concerning the Lemon test. Read more than the first couple lines of each opinion.
Read one of the dozens of lower court cases regarding the establishment clause and public schools. It's been challenged and upheld many times that as teachers and facilitators are in a position of influence and children are not adept, religious symbolism will always be considered curricular. Think of it like statutory rape, they can't give consent because they are not able to understand it and because the staff are in a position of power.
Rehnquist was also dead wrong about our country's religious heritage, and was one of the original religious justices that paved the way for hacks like Scalia. Some of the founders were religious, but they were all very clear about it's place in government.
Read it. Still think you're extrapolating about the actual topic at hand. Also, the Court is only right if you say it is? If we're going there, there's no point in arguing further.
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Read it. Still think you're extrapolating about the actual topic at hand. Also, the Court is only right if you say it is? If we're going there, there's no point in arguing further.
I didn't say the court was right or wrong, they are the arbiters of the constitution. Individual justices, however, often have biases and Rehnquist was one of them. He was well known for his summary opinions being full of religious crap and light on law.
Singing a song in school is not forcing anyone to believe the content of the lyrics, it is not worship, it is not Church. It is complete lunacy to say otherwise.
Again it is the usual, if pretentious liberals find it annoying then it must go away.
Ban "Frosty the Snowman" because it is forcing a captive audience to believe in demon possession.
Again it is the usual, if pretentious liberals find it annoying then it must go away.
Ban "Frosty the Snowman" because it is forcing a captive audience to believe in demon possession.
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